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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
hi i got a pentium 4 that rebootz every 5 to 10 secs repeatedly not gettin to windows

it started like 7 weeks ago i could get into windows but for an half our max till it reboots or shutdowned, so in the time i was in windows i backuped everything on discs
a couple of days after, the cpu did not start to windows it just comes, not even halfway of the startup and it reboots again, and again and again :sayno:

i had warranty so i went to get it fixed, they said it might be overheated since it was summer. that might have been the case becuz of the up time daily,
they took it in for repairs for the last 5 weeks now. they repaired it and returned it yesterday :grin:

well nothing has been repaired or changed the prob remains the same. 5 weeks for nothing :deveous:

so the prob is the cpu reboots repeatedly never getting to windows desktop

i had norton internet security 2005 installed from the start of use of the cpu and up-to-date
all internet security setting were higher than average
cpu was virus free and spy/adware free
it runs on windows xp home edition

it's a 2 (dual) 3.4Ghz processor both were working fine when i made backups
the cooler fan starts normally when the cpu boots (trying to boot)
windows initializing can be seen on screen
all cards , ram, video, etc are socketed correctly

I bought this less than a year ago, think nov 2004
I dont know much about hardware and my software knowledge is close to basic

what could be the malfunction, and what should be replaced or checked
thnx in advance 4 any posts

unidoubt
 

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Welcome to TSF:

Sounds like you have a heat-up problem with a saftey feature being activated (shutdown)

what brand and size PSU (power supply unit) do you have in the computer ???

take the side cover off the computer and blow a house fan blowing full blast directly into the computer / see if it boots longer


if it will get to windows / download this program >> sandra lite (free) and record your system temps, cpu temps, system voltages >>> 3 seperate items
http://www.download.com/3000-2086-10018691.html

post them in here for evaluation


please give full system specs including PSU maker and size

I believe you are going to need a better PSU

look at this one / http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/200507111/stresstest-14.html
you can check them out at newegg.com

when the system starts up do the cpu fans spinn at what looks to be full speed ??????

regards

joe
 

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crazijoe said:
I would take it back to where you had it repaired and tell them to replace it.
I have to agree with this, if it is under warranty I would not touch it. It sounds like they just let it sit around for a while and then gave it back without repairing it. Sadly there are businesses with the attitude that after a sale they do not want to see you again until you need a new PC.

If you dont get any satisfaction from the repair shop you may have to go it alone. Well almost alone, we are here to help you get your PC back on it's feet.

Following Lindermans suggestions is not going to void the warranty, see if it is heat or PSU related.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
hi all thnx for posting

I took the sides of and put the house fan full blast but boot time extended like 2 secs so that doesn't work
the case cooler fan spins full speed as well as the psu fan

PS After a couple of months after i bought it, the sound of the case fan got louder, like a plane trying to take off :rolleyes:
it's been like that ever since, approx half the noice of a vacuum cleaner

the warranty will expire in a month or so, there was 1 full year warranty
i've contacted them and told them what was up, they told that the fix was done by the supplier where they got the cpu from
so i went again to the shop, told them to start it up to show there 'fix'
(in my rush to go back to the shop i forgot to put the skrews back into the sides oops, told them i was trying to verify if anything had changed inside)
now they'll repair it themselves at the shop, no 5 weeks runaround
should be done in a week max i think, i'll call them in a few days


here are the specs:

Medion Computers
dual p4 3.4Ghz
2.00G ram (4x512)
Radeon x700pro 256mb tv out
philips tv tuner card
audio C-media high definition on-board
Fast ethernet 10/100 Lan

the psu label:

Fsp Group inc.
Fortron/source

model NO: FSP350-60MDN Rev.A
AC input:230-240V, 5A, 50-60Hz
DC output:350
+3.3v----28.0A(ORG)+5v----30.0A(RED)+12V----19.5A(YEL)
+5Vsb----2.0A(PURP)-5v----0.3A(WHITE)-12v----0.5A(BLUE)
P.G. Signal(GRAY), ground(BLACK)

(+3.3v & +5v & +12v=320W MAX)
(+3.3v & +5v=180W MAX)
w/noicekiller w/pfc

case cooler fan label:
asia vital components www.avs.com.tw
(it was just this line)

here is pic of a psu identical to mine (except the knob and specs)
http://www20.tomshardware.com/howto/20040122/power_supplies-08.html

it's gone for repairs again, i hope they'll fix it good this time
till then this p3 450 mhz will have to do

thnx for all post and being here for me
ur help is most appreciated

i'll keep u posted :wink:
Unidoubt
 

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Fortron makes excellent PSUs but I think it's kinda small for a Dual P4 unit. This may be your problem.
If you max out you PSU, heat and degradation will accelerate and shorten the lifespan of the PSU.
 

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Again I have to agree with Crazijoe.

If the shop replaces the PSU with the same one then you know it was power issues. In this case I would wait till the warranty runs out and get a Antec or Enermax 550 or 600 watt PSU and pull the 450 watt out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
hi, all

they haven't finished the repair yet, but they said they checked the psu but didn't found anything wrong with it. they'll test more to find out what the problem is so it will take some time

i do have a few questions:

1.are the p4 processors located underneath the casefan?

2.if so, could the accumulated dust in the fan or on the processor, stop the processor from working?

3.if u disconnect the mainpower cord from the wall, after ur done using the computer, and insert when u want to use it.
if u do this regularly or all the time, does it damage the computer or it's components in anyway?

4.if i replaced the psu 350 W with a psu 550W - 600W wouldn't it heat up more, being more electricity?

5.
my friend just bought a computer last week
it's a 3.00Ghz (klok 2.8ghz) also dual processor pentium 4
2x512mb ram
radeon x600 256mb tv-out
he is using a psu similar to mine fsp group inc. fsp350-60T-something (just got a fast look)

when the cpu-use parameter (ctrl+alt+del/taskbar) goes 80% or above while watching movie, the psu radiates alot of heat at the back of the psu.
it was the same warmth that radiated at the back of my psu.
u can compare it to a hairdryer, heat is about the same but less windy.
is that kind of heat normal?
is it possible that what happened to my cpu happens to my friend's cpu?


i hope you can answer these, and shine some light
i'm running out of clues, it's driving me nuts :confused:
also I want to save my friend from this ordeal

thnx all, most appreciated

Unidoubt
 

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You guys desperately need bigger quality PSU units / 550 watts minimum !!!

that 350 isnt cutting it !! you see the high heat levels coming out of the rear of your computer / here is why >>>> you PSU is only capable of delivering 269 watts at FULL LOAD

Quote:

Power Supply Efficiency:
A power supply's efficiency rating is determined by the ratio of AC power going in to the DC power going out. Generally this comparison is done using Watts as a common unit of measurement. Anything less than 100% efficiency is dissipated wastefully as heat. In reality no power supply will be 100% efficient, that's just a fact of life, however you can (and should) avoid power supplies with very low efficiency ratings.

If a power supply is consuming 450 Watts from the AC side, but on the DC side the output is only 400 Watts, then the math tells us that the PSU is ~89% efficient in its power conversion and the other 11% (50W) is lost as heat. That 50W of heat is no different than if you were running a 50W light bulb, you pay for that power usage on your electric bill. Not to mention the heat must be cooled, so there is an additional cooling cost that some people don't think about. So in the short-term a cheaper PSU may fit your budget better, but in the long term you will end up paying for it several times over. It is definitely worth comparing power supply efficiency ratings and choosing the most efficient power supply that your budget allows for.


Another Quote: >>> (do the math for your machine )

Power Supplies & Cooling

When you start adding lots of features to your PC (more drives, better video, and so on), they all require more power. And anyone who works with electricity knows that more power means more heat to displace. With that in mind, here are my recommendations for keeping things running smoothly once you add all the goodies:

1. Power--too much power is always better than too little. You should figure your minimum power based on the components inside. If you do an online search for "power supply calculator," you should be able to find a couple of online sites that allow you to check off what you have in your system and get back a power rating. As a general guideline, here are the basics:

a) Minimum power needed: 36 Watts (Motherboard 25 Watts, Floppy 5 Watts, Keyboard and Mouse 3 Watts, CPU Fan 3 Watts)

b) CPU - 2 choices here and quite a variance even in a particular class, AMD processors are typically 60-80 Watts with the newer versions being even more power hungry while Intel processors are typically between 80 and 110 Watts. So just for basics lets figure 90 Watts for the processor.

c) Video card - AGP slot has a maximum potential for about 45 watts, some of the newer high end cards require more power and might have external power options, if that's the case you might want to find out the power rating for your particular card, otherwise let's figure about 35 watts for a normal video card, and 50 watts for a higher end model.

d) Calculate about 10 watts for each stick of memory in your PC.

e) Hard drives - 25 Watts for EACH drive

f) CD/DVD drives - 25 Watts for EACH drive

g) Roughly about 5 watts for each PCI card in your system (this can vary quite a bit, some of the SoundBlaster cards with all the bells and whistles reportedly require close to 20 Watts)

h) Each external device connected through USB (not USB slots, but actual devices connected to the PC (5 Watts each) - NOTE: you can calculate 8 Watts for each Firewire device

i) Add another 3 Watts for each extra fan located inside your case.

Take all those figures, add them together, and then calculate in another 25% for a buffer. You never want to run your power supply maxed out, so if your power needs are 350 Watts based on your devices, you should be looking at a 425 or 450 Watt power supply.

Now, with all that power you need to keep the inside of your PC cool. What you need to keep in mind with cooling is that you have to keep air flow going through your case. That means that all the fans moving air can't be doing the same thing, if they are all blowing air out, you need at least one fan turned around to pull some cool air in. You also want to try to position fans (not always easy to do) for maximum airflow. Keep in mind that warm air rises, so any fans near the top of your case you would generally want blowing OUT to get the hot air out of the case. And if you have a fan mounted lower in the case turn it around so it is blowing into the case and pulling that cooler air inside. This will create a nice air-flow with cool air coming in low, it will warm up as it comes in and rise to the top of the case where it gets pushed out.

The final item to look at, is one of the biggest generators of heat in your system is your CPU. So to keep things even cooler you might want to consider putting a larger CPU fan onto your processor. While this might sound like a simple task (and technically it is) you do run the risk of possible cracking your processor if you improperly seat your fan. So if you are the least bit hesitant about attempting to change out your fan yourself you might want to take it into a shop or get a computer buddy to help you out. When selecting a new fan, make sure to check the dB (decibel) rating as you don't want to create an aircraft landing sound every time your PC is turned on. Might not seem like a big deal, but sit next to a computer that is pushing a lot of air for a bit and that steady hum will tend to drive most people crazy. Just spend a little extra from the start to get "silent" running fans everywhere you can inside your case.

Hope that helps you get the most power and cooling out of your system. You might also want to consider replacing the whole case with a new high power, quiet, good airflow design version. But that would be a whole other topic to discuss.

Good luck, and happy computing.


This is the PSU you guys should be using (sell off your old one on ebay)

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/200507111/stresstest-14.html


regards

joe
 

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Unidoubt said:
1.are the p4 processors located underneath the casefan?
The CPUs are usually located toward the back of the case under the PSU. If you have a case fan, on the back of the tower, that is under the PSU, normally the CPUs will be right behind it.

Unidoubt said:
2.if so, could the accumulated dust in the fan or on the processor, stop the processor from working?
This can attribute to the processor heating up but it would take a severe environment for the time you have had it (if they cleaned it when it was in the shop) to create that much dust.
Typically P4 CPUs have what they call, thermal protection. If the CPU gets to a critical temp, it would normally throttle down, not just reboot. You would notice a considerable drop in processor speed. This drop in speed will continue till the CPU's safe temp is obtained.

Unidoubt said:
3.if u disconnect the mainpower cord from the wall, after ur done using the computer, and insert when u want to use it.
if u do this regularly or all the time, does it damage the computer or it's components in anyway?
No, this would not have any affect at all.

Unidoubt said:
4.if i replaced the psu 350 W with a psu 550W - 600W wouldn't it heat up more, being more electricity?
No it wouldn't. Heat would probably decrease because you are not working the PSU as much. You generally want your load of your PSU to be 60-70% of the PSUs working wattage and not the MAX wattage.

Unidoubt said:
5.
my friend just bought a computer last week
it's a 3.00Ghz (klok 2.8ghz) also dual processor pentium 4
2x512mb ram
radeon x600 256mb tv-out
he is using a psu similar to mine fsp group inc. fsp350-60T-something (just got a fast look)
when the cpu-use parameter (ctrl+alt+del/taskbar) goes 80% or above while watching movie, the psu radiates alot of heat at the back of the psu.
it was the same warmth that radiated at the back of my psu.
u can compare it to a hairdryer, heat is about the same but less windy.
is that kind of heat normal?
is it possible that what happened to my cpu happens to my friend's cpu?
This would be normal for a PSU of that wattage. The more power that is needed by the components the more power the the PSU will need to supply. If the components of the PSU are rated at 350w, then they are close to max and will heat up more till they burn out.

Quick question,
Are they (repair shop) getting the same symptoms as you?
 

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A power supply is not a device that pushes power into the device it is connected to. Rather the device that needs the power draws from the power supply whatever it needs to function propery.

If your power supply is not capable of delivering all that the devices are trying to draw they will not function properly. Furthermore the power supply starts to heat up while trying to supply power beyond its capability.

Think of it like a little pickup truck trying to hault a large trailer up a hill. The little pickup is likely to overheat. But do that with a large truck with a V8 motor and you sail along just fine at lower temperatures.

Your CPU's are located under the largest heatsink and fan combo on your motherboard.

I am going to have to disagree about the constant unplugging of the power supply on modern PC's. In my opinion it can over time create issues if done continuously. The problem is power surging or inrush. I am not going to go into a detailed explanation of this. The case comes with a power button for a reason, I would use it.

Having said that I have at least 25 PC's that are connected to Uniterruptable power supplies that do an orderly shut down almost daily. This cuts power to the PC completely. I have had no problems doing this on the older machines. The newer machines that we have are not old enough for me to come to any conclusion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
hi, all
thnx for the answers

the shop has finally found what was wrong with computer
they said that the processor was broken (damaged), so they ordered a new processor chip at the supplier, install it and give it back this week.
they said that everything else worked fine (psu and all), they try to boot it with a different cpu and it booted, so the processor was the culprit
i have also asked for a better cooling systemm so they ordered that too may have to pay extra for that one, hope the warranty got me covered

well i have been googling and found this in another forum:

quote:

''I had tried the Enermax All-In-One 600watt Noisetaker PSU with my dual Xeon system, but it would shutdown under heavy load. Enermax told me that this PSU was not made for a dual processor system and recommended that I instead get their 660watt server PSU, which I eventually bought as the OCZ 600watt that I initally got was giving me problems after using it for a couple of months. Currently using this PSU in my dual 275 opteron and Tyan S2895 system. It has worked great so far.''

so it seems that the enermax 600watt psu is not suitable for a 2 cpu-ed system and that a enermax 660watt is

link: http://www.reviewboard.com/articles_ektid299.aspx

it isn't cheap either i live in the netherlands (holland) and there isn't alot of shops that sells these (it's rare), and the price varies from 280-320 euro's :dead:
it's larger that most psu's(fitting in) and some sites say it weight 4.5kg?!
either way this will make an expensive electricity bill.

well i can't afford this kind of cash, im not all that rich u know
i'll have to save some
but if there's nothing else out there that will make my computer work properly then i'll have too...
i have made my friend aware of this, he refuses to pay this much for cpu parts and the bill. he is running his pc very gently now, trying not to load it much.
but he generally internets,listen mp3's and watch movies so what load could there be to break something?
i do all these too but i play games occassionally, but hours at a time
downloading torrents, kazaa and FTP the whole day (15hours) so i load it way much than him.

when my cpu is returned i'm wondering how long will it last till it breaks again
reminds me of that phrase used in the movie 'mortal kombat'
'' treasure these moments like it would be your last '' lol

anyway what y'all think of the 660 psu, is it worth it and needed for my cpu to work properly?
i just want to do my things without them breaking or melting, that's all
thnx
unidoubt
 

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Unidoubt said:
so they ordered a new processor chip at the supplier, install it and give it back this week.
This is interesting. I hope they get a CPU that is the same stepping as the one that is good. Because you did say this was a dual processor system.

Unidoubt said:
either way this will make an expensive electricity bill.
This isn't entirely true. Your PSU will only supply what is needed by the systems components. If your system only used 350w before, then the 660w PSU will only supply 350w. The fact that the PSU is rated for a higher wattage just means the effeciency is better because it isn't maxed out all the time.

When a system is drawing the maximum output of the PSU, will force the PSU to generate abnormal amount heat and may cause premature failure.

The most effecient PSU will produce little or no heat at all. Energy is used in the system components or wasted away as heat. Generally a CPU that creates a lot of heat is not very effecient. (Prescott core CPUs are known for this. Effeciency rating very low.) The same holds true to PSUs. The heat a PSU is throwing out the back is just wasted energy.
Think of it like a very effecient furnace. A 94% effecient furnace uses just about every amount of energy it consumes to create heat that will not be wasted out the chimmney. It is so effecient that it uses plastic PVC tubing for it's flue.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
The End

hi
sorry it's been awile
i just been busy with school and all

about the computer well...
they said that the processor was broken and they ordered a new one
a week after they said that the motherboard, coolerfan, and processor was defect
possible cause was a malfunction in the psu that chainreacted with the components, and it started from day one

so it was the psu like you said
2-3 weeks later they said so sorry but the parts can't be supplied
so where is my computer? - it's in germany so they can install the parts(where it was manufactured)
so I can't get it back? - no, u can't get it back cause the parts can't be supplied

so they'll give me a money refund
i paid on credit, so it will be the same way back by the creditcard company
it's almost been 2 weeks, they(the shop) are prolonging the refund with another week!
it's unbelievable...

the shop is not a little shop, it's a big warehouse 5-6 floors building
and franchised in most european countries, it's called mediamarkt (market)
i didn't expect this kind of service from such a big company, they took a total of 10 weeks!

i calculated the watt usage (with above post)
my computer was running around 490watt on psu maxed out 290-300watt for a year (gap 190watt)
my friends computer is running around 460watt on psu maxed out 290-300watt for the last 2 months (gap 160watt)

my friend will have the same problem, unless he replaces his psu
he'll be able to buy the psu in january, only option is the 660watt made for dual cpu

they said the error was started from the first day, if it's happening now inside the computer will the installation of the new psu correct the error state?
it's my final question

thank you so much for helping me, i learned a whole bunch and it changed my perspective on computers

greetz unidoubt

ps: may B a little early but don't know if I'll see u so
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all :)
 

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It doesn't suprise me on the lack of support you are getting from a large company. Normally larger companies have to go through certian "red tape" procedures. Thus the lack of speediness.

However the time it is taken you to get your refund is definitely unacceptable. You may want to keep on their toes on this and call them very frequently. When I say frequently I would be talking daily. Hound the every day til it shows on your account. Pester them and compain to them. What ever it take to keep them on the phone and chew up their time. Eventually they will tire from this and refund you money.

Just chauk it up as an experience and never do business with them again.
 
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