Go Back   Tech Support Forum > Networking Forum > Modems/Cable/DSL/Satellite

User Tag List

Lightning/Surge Protectors for DSL

This is a discussion on Lightning/Surge Protectors for DSL within the Modems/Cable/DSL/Satellite forums, part of the Tech Support Forum category. Recently got a speed upgrade on our DSL to a blazing fast 25Mb. Yeah, that's sarcasm for you urban dwellers


Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-27-2016, 02:05 AM   #1
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 911
OS: Win 7 HP 64B SP1



Recently got a speed upgrade on our DSL to a blazing fast 25Mb. Yeah, that's sarcasm for you urban dwellers that get real speeds. But it's much faster than I would have thought possible 5 years ago. At first, all we could get was 3, so this is probably all we'll get in the forseeable future.

On the previous rate of 12M, I was on a single pair and I never noticed any issues with the conventional analog, plug in/on protectors. Now, with the new rate, they use two pair and bond them in the DSLAM and modem to get the higher speed.

With testing, I can see that the rate is slower with any of the protectors I have connected. If I remove them all, the connect rate shown on the modem management screen is quite a bit higher.

I need something that will help to protect from surges on the Telco lines without degrading the signal.
Confounded Also is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-27-2016, 05:32 PM   #2
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



My suggestion is ask your provider what they recommend.
also confirm your Telco is grounded to a ground rod not a pipe that may turn to plastic underground. That is your first defense
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 10-29-2016, 05:56 AM   #3
Moderator - Networking
 
MitchConner's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,290
OS: IOS, NX-OS, JunOS, TMOS


To be honest mate, I wouldn't bother at all. I'd fit a surge protector to the power supply and leave it at that.
MitchConner is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-29-2016, 08:26 AM   #4
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



You can install a surge protector breaker that will protect the entire house. It's the option I chose so everything from my microwave to the tv are protected without additional surge protectors.
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 10-29-2016, 04:34 PM   #5
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 911
OS: Win 7 HP 64B SP1



Got one of these after the last hit.

But it won't help when the hit comes in on the phone line and takes out the modem and anything connected to it.

Confounded Also is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 09:19 AM   #6
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



Yep that's the same one I used. You are correct that it will not protect phone lines nor will it protect if the lightening strike is close enough to come up from the ground and ground rod. People have been killed by lightening coming up via the kitchen sink piping they were touching at the time. But the odds of that happening are really really slim.

You may want to consider a device like this
https://www.amazon.com/Intermatic-IG...1C4W56W8TJTC49
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 09:49 AM   #7
AVB
TSF Enthusiast
 
AVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Elora, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 727
OS: Win 7 Pro 64



Yes you do want those incoming lines. I have lost cable modems and regular DSL/phone modems and the equipment attached over the years. Matter I have had more problems with this than the local electrical systems but they even have surges even when no electrical storms in the area where lines get crossed by maintenance crews and accidents. I lost over 2K in equipment on a clear day one time from a phone line surge.

MOVs are good but they do go bad after several hits. Gas discharge and spark gaps tend to fair better or at least that is my experience with them.
AVB is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 10:50 AM   #8
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 911
OS: Win 7 HP 64B SP1



I've got one of each of these:





The Porta block has taken a couple of hits and has a couple of bad ports now, so I had to move the wires to other ports. The gas tubes seem to be fine though. Can't figure out why the fuses survive and the ports don't.

I also have a couple of in-line RJ11 style protectors. Going through all three, Telco >> RJ11 protector >> Porta block >> Ditek >> Modem, I get a signal that connects and bonds fine, but at a lower rate. I only get about 14Mb with those in line and closer to 25 with them all bypassed.

I plan on trying one protector at a time to see which is slowing things down.
Confounded Also is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 03:53 PM   #9
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



More is not better

You should have one run from the customer side Telco to the inline surge protector and then to the modem.

any thing else in between can cause interference which equals less bandwidth.

what is that porta block grounded to ?
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 10-30-2016, 05:19 PM   #10
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 911
OS: Win 7 HP 64B SP1



Quote:
Originally Posted by GentleArrow View Post

what is that porta block grounded to ?
The ground rod about 3' away that the main circuit panel and meter box are tied to.
Confounded Also is offline  
Old 10-31-2016, 07:17 AM   #11
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



That should be good for the porta block.

Hmm only a single ground rod? Building code in the US, even in the wet state of Oregon, is two ground rods 10' apart. They learned that with only one rod grounding can become questionable.
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 10-31-2016, 07:54 AM   #12
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 911
OS: Win 7 HP 64B SP1



I think this house was built before Oregon.


OK, maybe not quite that old. No codes out here in the sticks though, at least none anybody bothers with. Passed inspection 20 years ago when I upgraded the circuit panel anyways.
Confounded Also is offline  
Old 10-31-2016, 08:28 AM   #13
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



House built before 1859 would have had to have been retrofitted for electricity :-)
20 year old code is pretty old. Pretty easy to install a second ground rod. I have done it at the last three houses I have owned due to all of my computer gear.
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 11-02-2016, 10:30 PM   #14
Moderator
- Design Team
- Networking Team
 
Fjandr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 2,483
OS: Windows XP SP3, Windows 7 SP1, Debian, CentOS

My System


Is your ground bonded to the panel neutral (and at one, and only one, point?) Ground rods do almost nothing when it comes to providing adequate return path for surge current. They're actually more likely to cause damage, injury, or death without correct neutral bonding than leaving them out of an electrical system entirely. The difference between bonding and grounding is commonly misunderstood, and the terms are used interchangeably in many circumstances where they are absolutely not interchangeable (including in the NEC, for those in the USA).
__________________

Fjandr is offline  
Old 11-03-2016, 10:48 PM   #15
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



"Ground rods do almost nothing when it comes to providing adequate return path for surge current."

Depends on the surge. I would also have to point out that that a surge suppressor shunts the surge to the ground. You might have noticed we discussed a full house surge protector?

That demands a good ground.

"Is your ground bonded to the panel neutral (and at one, and only one, point?)"

Don't know the electrical rules where you are but in the US the ground line is connected to both the common [neutral] and ground lines so that is at two points.
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 11-04-2016, 03:59 PM   #16
Moderator
- Design Team
- Networking Team
 
Fjandr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 2,483
OS: Windows XP SP3, Windows 7 SP1, Debian, CentOS

My System


The neutral connection is not an earth connection (ground), as I mentioned regarding the common conflation of what "grounding" and "bonding" mean. Bonding returns a low-impedance connection to the transformer supply winding. I should have been clearer on the difference as it relates to abnormal current diversion. Anything under 600V will not be adequately cleared by an earth ground, while anything over will be. That's why both are used, as a lack of either can result in equipment destruction or death.

And yes, surge suppression systems are a very good idea. I've seen low-quality units melted into puddles of plastic as a result of transformer explosions. I carry around a handful of exploded MOVs as an object lesson for people who think such systems should be optional. :)
__________________

Fjandr is offline  
Old 11-05-2016, 07:52 PM   #17
TSF Enthusiast
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,148
OS: win7



Don't know where you got your electrical background but both common and ground are grounded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral

Where do you think the common connection goes back to? Everything goes to ground. I always pointed to this as proof [along with gravity] that the earth sucks :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_(electricity)

In fact with Knob and Tube you only had one hot and one ground. They added the 2nd ground for fault tolerance in case there is a break in the common that didn't allow the flow of electricity to blow the fuse thereby starting a fire.

Let me put it another way, all of my building inspections passed city inspections.
GentleArrow is offline  
Old 11-05-2016, 11:50 PM   #18
Moderator
- Design Team
- Networking Team
 
Fjandr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 2,483
OS: Windows XP SP3, Windows 7 SP1, Debian, CentOS

My System


Rather than me trying to explain in the manner of reinventing the wheel, these provide pretty much all of the necessary context for what I was trying to say:

Grounding vs Bonding - Part 1 of 12
Grounding and Bonding — Part 1 of 3

Don't take this as me passing judgment on your capabilities, because I'm not, but passing inspection means very little in my experience. With the exception of the jurisdictions which did not require permitting, all of systems I've had to fix due to improper design or implementation (this goes well beyond just electrical systems) passed inspection for whatever standard applied to them.

The "everything goes back to ground" statement did remind me of a good means to clearly show that "common/neutral" is not interchangeable with "earth/ground" though: A neutral return path is the "ground" you find in something like a cell phone or other device with no physical earth connection. A solid neutral ground path is only possible with systems which have a physical connection to earth. Any system without that physical connection to an earth ground must necessarily return voltage in another manner (of which there are several).

Anyway, since this doesn't look like it's going to merge back toward the thread topic I'll leave my end at that. The PM lines are wide open for anything further. :)
__________________

Fjandr is offline  
Old 11-06-2016, 05:29 AM   #19
AVB
TSF Enthusiast
 
AVB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Elora, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 727
OS: Win 7 Pro 64



First there is difference between neutral and earth grounding. There can be several volts difference between neutral and earth ground which due to the return path resistance to your transformer. Bonding the neutral to earth ground put resistance to near zero ohms. I have lit lights by connecting neutral via a bulb and earth ground. I have also operated 120 vac equipment with a single wire with equipment attached to earth ground out in my yard nowhere near the neutral. This is why I use both a Y and delta configured MOV setup. This takes in account for a loss of neutral to earth ground failure.

Many new circuit breaker panels come unbonded and need to be bonded in most cases. Also most earth ground rods are driven straight down into the ground. This is actual a potential ground as the soil can loosen and loose contact with the rod. It is better to drive the rod into the ground at a 45 degree angle so as the soil compacts it keeps a firm contact with the rod. Also ground rods can also actual glass over from several surge hits depending the size of the hit and become insulated from from the soil. One thing else dry soils don't ground as well as damp or wet soils.

The problem with some surge protectors is the incoherent capacitance. Depending the switching frequency of the incoming signal this capacitance can act like a high pass filter thus sending the signal to neutral/ground instead of the equipment. As our speed increases to more this capacitance will affect our signal and must be taken into account.

This something the amateur radio operator have used for years to improve our signal reception by sending unwanted frequencies to ground while allowing thru the desired frequencies. Personally I am have a switchable 100 hz bandwidth filter on my CW equipment to make QRP signals readable.
AVB is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is on
Smilies are on
[IMG] code is on
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Post a Question


» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
  > 10.0.0.2
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 2001 - 2018, Tech Support Forum

Windows 10 - Windows 7 - Windows XP - Windows Vista - Trojan Removal - Spyware Removal - Virus Removal - Networking - Security - Top Web Hosts