Jason

Despite not yet having fulfilled his campaign promises to end the "don't ask, don't tell" policy banning gays from serving openly in the military or the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA), which defines marriage as only between a man and a woman, President Obama spoke to a largely supportive audience at the annual dinner of the Human Rights Campaign, the gay civil rights advocacy group, on Saturday night.

But at a march for equality the next day organized by a younger generation critical of the HRC and other established gay rights organizations, gay activists signaled that their patience with the president has grown thin.

Not long after the march ended, NBC News' John Harwood reported that the White House is not terribly bothered about the criticism coming from gay rights groups. Citing an Obama administration adviser, Harwood said because the president is "doing well with 90 percent or more of Democrats," the White House "views this opposition as really part of the Internet left fringe."

Harwood added that the White House believes that its opposition from the left, including bloggers, "need to take off the pajamas, get dressed, and realize that governing a closely divided country is complicated and difficult."

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10...y5378885.shtml

djaburg

Since a person of homosexual orientation can claim that they were discriminated against under current law, does that mean now (or ever) that someone who is discriminated against because they're not homosexual has the same right to protection against discrimination? So if I didn't get a job because I'm NOT gay, could I sue? That hasn't happened, but what if a military supervisor didn't promote someone or harassed someone because they weren't gay, would the same rules apply?

bry623

I was going to promote you here in the PS, but you are such an outspoken hetero that I wouldn't want to be labeled anti-gay.

djaburg

Outspoken hetero? Why yes I am. I'm also a gun toting veteran and I'm outspoken about that. And while we're at it, I'm a computer geek by trade, have 3 kids, and a house...oops speaking out loud again. I don't begrudge anyone their right to do what they wish within the law, rock on! My comment wasn't anti-gay, it was more about the hypocrisy surrounding so much of the protective legislation we're creating. Basically discrimination is not just a one way street. I will go back to my old school way of thinking that I developed when I was in school. I didn't/don't care if you were/are black, white, male, female, straight, gay, fat, skinny, smart, or dumb. You really fell in to two groups. You were either cool or you were a dick. Pretty simple. I still judge people more or less on that more than I do other criteria. Dang, there I go being outspoken again... ;-)

simpswr

Dang Liberal ! !

djaburg

Now that's cold blooded. The horror!!

yustr

Let's face it, the real reason most people who are anti-gay are anti-gay because they can't see having sex with a member of their own sex. So...

I said it first but feel free to use it.

If you don't get it, ask any married guy. Or gal

Chode

I think its great that you support the right of homosexuals to do what "they wish within the law", but how do you feel about laws that ban homosexual sex? Is it OK to have a law on the books that bans sodomy even if that means that a man and his wife can't engage in anal sex in the privacy of their own home? When it was legal to own slaves, was it moral? Was it cool to be the Massah?

djaburg

And history will show that collectively a MORAL choice was made to abolish slavery. Sure not everyone agreed, but the majority did and as a nation we passed laws that abolished it and those that disagreed either followed the law or suffered the consequences.

Drew1369

Is there laws ban homosexual sex?

(besides the UCMJ)

djaburg

Comon now, not everyone is familiar with the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ). I think that Chode pointed out in a different post that there are laws on the books relating to sodomy:

Sodomy (pronounced /ˈsɒdəmi/) is a term used today predominantly in law (derived from traditional Christian usage) to describe the act of anal intercourse, oral intercourse, or bestiality.

Mcninjaguy

Again another case where some stupid book (the bible) tells us what to do and was made 2,000 years go. Its time to revamp the laws.

djaburg

Taking that line of thought, where would we get our sense of values from? TV? Celebrities? Political leaders? From within? Since some people don't think it's a problem to steal, do we ban that? Why? Because someone or something said so? But if everyone doesn't believe that it's wrong should we ignore it?

I'm curious if you've ever been in the military? If so, have you ever been deployed in a forward operating location under field conditions? Do you know how you'd react if the guy sharing the foxhole/bunker/tent with you was openly gay? It's hard to say unless you've been there how you'd react. I've been deployed, but not had to share with an openly gay military member, but I'm not sure how it would feel. I'm not homophobic, but I don't think it's "normal" behavior either. I don't make the rules nor do most military members. If the guidelines changed to openly allow it, I would expect that anyone that did their job, pulled their weight, and didn't expect special treatment would be dealt with fairly in the ranks.

Mcninjaguy

Ohh yea I might be more religious if I was in the army for sure as you need to hold on to hope and faith more than ever. As long as while that gay soldier was on duty or a hetero soldier was on duty too there should be nothing too sexually overt besides the usual joking around I guess.

Faith is okay but its not for and picking and choosing from the bible is what everybody does. There are parts that are bad for some and good for others. There are extremes of every religion and too take away parts would take away from the religion itself. I just hope that my friends who are religious are a bit liberal in their views. I never said purely liberal but just as long as the basic equality to a human is paid attention to.

I also do not believe in political correctness. This will allow rogue organizations to take a hold in my and your country. We must be able to say mean things sometimes who offend some people and be able to get away with it. I may not agree with what everybody says but I will not change my view on Atheism because someone says that we should be more understanding or that I'm wrong.

Canaanabolaanan

1. Lol. Jesus H, have you not ever met a gay person? You think they're zombies or aliens or something? Why would this notion at all factor into how you would behave in a fox hole? "I gotta shoot the enemy. I gotta shoot the enemy! But dammit all, this dude next to me is gay! Do I shoot him too?!"

It just sounds so psychotic that these are your actual concerns (excluding my dialogue). Perhaps it is a massive oversight by our military that they don't require as training that you have a discussion with a gay person for more than 5 minutes. It's not airborne. You won't catch it. I wouldn't be worrying about whether the person behind me was emo, spoke spanish, cooked with curry, played kickball, painted murals, or was sexually attracted to the same sex. It's immaterial. It's irrelevant.

But you're right about this: it's not normal behavior. That's so easy to say that it doesn't require quotes. But that doesn't make it wrong. It's just different.

2. Now I'm torn, because this seems perfectly sensible. This is the approach we all should have. If you're able to competently do your job, this should be the only criteria to serve.

djaburg

Yes I have met and even know gay people, not that it has anything to do with my point. I'll assume you've not been in the military and/or deployed. And please don't tell me that you don't have to in order to understand. I didn't say that I'd react one way or the other, I merely said that I don't know how it would be, so don't make assumptions.

GoSuNi

I am not anti-gay, but homosexuality is just unnatural and creepy to me.

Canaanabolaanan

I'll agree with you there, although I'm adult enough not to crusade against it (though I don't mean to suggest that you do).

And if that's the case, then I apologize djaburg. Although your text is very suggestive, as if the fact that someone's gay is going to cause some unnerving disturbance that'd be a detriment to the task force. If that were the case, you could make the same argument for someone who had a large mole on their face, or tattooed a toe red, or liked Ace of Base. Well gosh, I don't know how I'd react in those situations. Guess I'll have to enlist to find out. I hope I'm not a real big stiff about it.

You've mentioned before that you were enlisted. What personal experiences must you encounter to know how some trait, behavior, or preference will change your demeanor and actions in combat? I clearly can't understand it unless I try it out. It confounds the mind.

Mcninjaguy

If the person is willing to die for my country or your country I would be very proud to salute them.

djaburg

I've been in combat zones and I can assure you as anyone who has can, it's a mind altering experience. Frightening, exhilarating, and surreal all at once. Most movies don't really touch on the reality of it, although the series Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan are about as close as I've seen to that sensation. To say that every primal instinct you have is active would be true. It truly does bring out every ounce of testosterone that extended periods of fight or flight can release. There in lies the aspect that I'm not sure of. In an environment like that, how would openly gay be received? Hard to say. WW vets, Vietnam vets, Iraq war vets, and just about ANY combat vet will tell you the same thing, it can get about as macho as anything you can imagine...and it needs to be for you to survive. As I've stated, I'm not homophobic, but I'm not sure even my wife would like me when it's like that. That truly is why so many have such a hard time coming "back to the world" when it's their time to return or the conflict is over. Once turned on, and sustained for long periods of time, it can be difficult to turn off.

I'm not sure if I'm even conveying it correctly, but it's the best I can do.