Mrs. Pelosi's VAT

**Jason** · 10-10-2009, 06:04 PM

Candor about taxes is rare in Washington, so when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi admits that Democrats may have to impose a huge new tax on the middle class to fund their spending ambitions, believe her.

Speaking with PBS's Charlie Rose on Monday, Mrs. Pelosi mused publicly about the rising possibility of enacting a value-added tax, or VAT, as part of broader tax reform. "Somewhere along the way, a value-added tax plays into this," she said. "Of course, we want to take down the health-care cost, that's one part of it. But in the scheme of things, I think it's fair to look at a value-added tax as well."

The allure of a VAT for politicians is that it applies to every level of production or service, rakes in piles of money, and is largely hidden from those who ultimately pay it—namely, consumers. With a $9 trillion 10-year budget deficit, $4 trillion in spending in fiscal 2010 alone, and a $1 trillion (at a minimum) health-care entitlement in the wings, Mrs. Pelosi knows that not even the revenue from the expiration of the lower Bush tax rates in 2011 will cover the bills. Nearly every European country that has passed national health care has also eventually imposed a VAT, and it's foolish to think the U.S. will be different.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...007010416.html

**djaburg** · 10-10-2009, 10:07 PM

So they argue that "a new tax is necessary to address the nation's exploding financial liabilities"? The liabilities that they themselves helped push through and continue to increase by more spending? I thought there wasn't going to be more tax increases? Oh wait, that's VAT not really Tax. I get it now...

Tumbleweed36 · 10-11-2009, 04:23 AM

The Democrats never saw a tax they didn't like.

**simpswr** · 10-11-2009, 09:21 AM

I hate to spoil a good rant, but let's not forget that the biggest element of " exploding financial liabilities" is the largest deficet in history legacy of the Bush administration.

**djaburg** · 10-11-2009, 10:03 AM

Other than the deficit that's currently being run up which has dwarfed what he was left, right? I don't there's been any president in history that HASN'T run up a deficit in a time of war. Sure there is debate on the involvement, but the facts are the facts we were and are in a war and that factors in to the deficit issue, correct? Where WAS the deficit and where IS the deficit?

**simpswr** · 10-11-2009, 10:57 AM

Where is or where projected? . . Projections are only as good as the assumptions . . thus the projections on unemployment . .

We handed Pelosi and co. the majority they have . . it was certainly not due to anything they did . . Did anyone doubt that they would spend?

**simpswr** · 10-11-2009, 05:17 PM

We can argue about who is to blame for the deficit forever and it will not really matter . . what will matter is where we are in 2012 and more importantly in 1014.

Most unbiased economists expect that when the data is in, that we will have exited the recession in August or September of this year. While other indicators will surely lag, at that time, Obama will have to fight with Pelosi ( or whoever is in her role ) over how much of the stimulus package should remain in play versus how much they can afford on Health Care reform.

We Republicans will be on the sidelines, tossing platitudes and whining . . totally impotent and helpless.

**Drew1369** · 10-11-2009, 07:22 PM

So you say... but we have stalled the healthcare takeover pretty well :D

**simpswr** · 10-12-2009, 06:53 AM

The "Blue Dog Democrats" have . . we just put out lies about death panels and watched from the sidelines.

**djaburg** · 10-12-2009, 08:23 AM

But are they lies? Truly? Isn't it true that in cases where there are elderly patients that need costly treatment to survive that there will be panels to determine whether or not they get treated (sort of a cost/benefit analysis)? I mean since the liberal and obviously more enlightened among us look at the European model as the gold standard, and they do it there (and yes they do it there), why would anyone think it wouldn't be the same here? Because some politician promised it wouldn't happen? Kinda like the promises of no new taxes I guess...

**simpswr** · 10-12-2009, 08:35 AM

Nothing I have seen in any of the proposals resembles the Euopean model . . ours is just insurance reform . . not the "take over of health care by the government" that the Busies an Rush claim it to be.

Nothing in any of the proposals mention panels to determine treatment . . again, nonesense spouted by Bushies, Palinies and Rush to obfuscate the facts.

It would help if you actually read the proposals before spreading the BS

**djaburg** · 10-12-2009, 09:18 AM

Ahh...as I'm sure you have. Since there's still more than one, which ones? Do you really believe it's simply insurance reform? So when they become the biggest insurance provider, and most assuredly they will, you don't think they'll be able to completely control the direction our current medical industry takes? Do you really think they're in it to foster healthy competition?

**simpswr** · 10-12-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djaburg

But are they lies? Truly? Isn't it true that in cases where there are elderly patients that need costly treatment to survive that there will be panels to determine whether or not they get treated (sort of a cost/benefit analysis)?

Get real . . the Democrats would not know a cost/benefit analysis if it bit them in the butt . . they know tax . . they know spend.

Read the proposals and point out wherw those panels are proposed.

So when they become the biggest insurance provider, and most assuredly they will, you don't think they'll be able to completely control the direction our current medical industry takes?

Why would they want to do that? . . we have the best medical care in the world . . but many people cannot afford it.

Do you really think they're in it to foster healthy competition?

I think they are in it to provide affordable health care coverage to those who cannot afford it now . . and frankly, I think that is a worthy goal for a nation as great as ours is

**simpswr** · 10-12-2009, 09:55 AM

My problem with the way the party leadership has decided to fight the Democrats is that in 2012 when we are making the arguement that we can manage the country better than they can, the audience says " sounds good . . but these are the same folks who told us there were death panels in the Health Care Reform, that Obama was not born in the U.S., that he was a Nazi Socialist Terrorists and who stood by silently with their thumbs up thier butts while the Democrats crafted the Legislation"

I can't see how that will help us win the election

**Canaanabolaanan** · 10-12-2009, 06:03 PM

Oh c'mon now. To whom does that not sound like a winning strategy? WHOM I ASK YOU. WHOM!?

**simpswr** · 10-12-2009, 06:16 PM

.. winning to whom?

**Canaanabolaanan** · 10-12-2009, 06:17 PM

Right. Everyone agrees. Winning, nay, cunning strategy...

**simpswr** · 10-13-2009, 05:07 AM

. . . Stayin' the course . .. worked great last time around!!

bry623 · 10-14-2009, 10:26 AM

This is not a health care debate.

I am the one who predicted 3 years ago that the liberals would raise my taxes......... and I make less than BHO's cutoff for tax hikes.

**simpswr** · 10-14-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

I am the one who predicted 3 years ago that the liberals would raise my taxes......... .

Me too . . If for nothing else but to pay sown the deficit left by Wubbia

10-10-2009, 06:04 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jason Faugh a ballagh Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Pasco, FL Posts: 8,472 OS: Windows Vista My System Blog Entries: 2	Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Candor about taxes is rare in Washington, so when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi admits that Democrats may have to impose a huge new tax on the middle class to fund their spending ambitions, believe her. Speaking with PBS's Charlie Rose on Monday, Mrs. Pelosi mused publicly about the rising possibility of enacting a value-added tax, or VAT, as part of broader tax reform. "Somewhere along the way, a value-added tax plays into this," she said. "Of course, we want to take down the health-care cost, that's one part of it. But in the scheme of things, I think it's fair to look at a value-added tax as well." The allure of a VAT for politicians is that it applies to every level of production or service, rakes in piles of money, and is largely hidden from those who ultimately pay it—namely, consumers. With a $9 trillion 10-year budget deficit, $4 trillion in spending in fiscal 2010 alone, and a $1 trillion (at a minimum) health-care entitlement in the wings, Mrs. Pelosi knows that not even the revenue from the expiration of the lower Bush tax rates in 2011 will cover the bills. Nearly every European country that has passed national health care has also eventually imposed a VAT, and it's foolish to think the U.S. will be different. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...007010416.html __________________ Posting Tips \| Advice for New People \| Common Fixes \| Agus na damnaithe fágtha gan focal Glaoigh ormsa i measc na naomh

10-10-2009, 10:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,317 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT So they argue that "a new tax is necessary to address the nation's exploding financial liabilities"? The liabilities that they themselves helped push through and continue to increase by more spending? I thought there wasn't going to be more tax increases? Oh wait, that's VAT not really Tax. I get it now... __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery. Last edited by Basementgeek; 10-11-2009 at 07:07 AM. Reason: Language

10-11-2009, 04:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 19,632 OS: XP Professional	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT The Democrats never saw a tax they didn't like. __________________ ---------- I don't receive email notifications of replies to subscribed threads. (Internet provider policy) Therefore, if I don't respond to your post within 24 hours, please send me a reminder PM and include the link to your thread.

10-11-2009, 09:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT I hate to spoil a good rant, but let's not forget that the biggest element of " exploding financial liabilities" is the largest deficet in history legacy of the Bush administration. __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-11-2009, 10:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,317 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Other than the deficit that's currently being run up which has dwarfed what he was left, right? I don't there's been any president in history that HASN'T run up a deficit in a time of war. Sure there is debate on the involvement, but the facts are the facts we were and are in a war and that factors in to the deficit issue, correct? Where WAS the deficit and where IS the deficit? __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

10-11-2009, 10:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Where is or where projected? . . Projections are only as good as the assumptions . . thus the projections on unemployment . . We handed Pelosi and co. the majority they have . . it was certainly not due to anything they did . . Did anyone doubt that they would spend? __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-11-2009, 05:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT We can argue about who is to blame for the deficit forever and it will not really matter . . what will matter is where we are in 2012 and more importantly in 1014. Most unbiased economists expect that when the data is in, that we will have exited the recession in August or September of this year. While other indicators will surely lag, at that time, Obama will have to fight with Pelosi ( or whoever is in her role ) over how much of the stimulus package should remain in play versus how much they can afford on Health Care reform. We Republicans will be on the sidelines, tossing platitudes and whining . . totally impotent and helpless. __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-11-2009, 07:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,426 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT So you say... but we have stalled the healthcare takeover pretty well :D __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

10-12-2009, 06:53 AM	#9 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT The "Blue Dog Democrats" have . . we just put out lies about death panels and watched from the sidelines. __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-12-2009, 08:23 AM	#10 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,317 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT But are they lies? Truly? Isn't it true that in cases where there are elderly patients that need costly treatment to survive that there will be panels to determine whether or not they get treated (sort of a cost/benefit analysis)? I mean since the liberal and obviously more enlightened among us look at the European model as the gold standard, and they do it there (and yes they do it there), why would anyone think it wouldn't be the same here? Because some politician promised it wouldn't happen? Kinda like the promises of no new taxes I guess... __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

10-12-2009, 08:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Nothing I have seen in any of the proposals resembles the Euopean model . . ours is just insurance reform . . not the "take over of health care by the government" that the Busies an Rush claim it to be. Nothing in any of the proposals mention panels to determine treatment . . again, nonesense spouted by Bushies, Palinies and Rush to obfuscate the facts. It would help if you actually read the proposals before spreading the BS __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-12-2009, 09:18 AM	#12 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,317 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Ahh...as I'm sure you have. Since there's still more than one, which ones? Do you really believe it's simply insurance reform? So when they become the biggest insurance provider, and most assuredly they will, you don't think they'll be able to completely control the direction our current medical industry takes? Do you really think they're in it to foster healthy competition? __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

10-12-2009, 09:55 AM	#14 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT My problem with the way the party leadership has decided to fight the Democrats is that in 2012 when we are making the arguement that we can manage the country better than they can, the audience says " sounds good . . but these are the same folks who told us there were death panels in the Health Care Reform, that Obama was not born in the U.S., that he was a Nazi Socialist Terrorists and who stood by silently with their thumbs up thier butts while the Democrats crafted the Legislation" I can't see how that will help us win the election __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-12-2009, 06:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
Canaanabolaanan TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 559 OS: XP Pro SP3	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Oh c'mon now. To whom does that not sound like a winning strategy? WHOM I ASK YOU. WHOM!?

10-12-2009, 06:16 PM	#16 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT .. winning to whom? __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-12-2009, 06:17 PM	#17 (permalink)
Canaanabolaanan TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 559 OS: XP Pro SP3	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT Right. Everyone agrees. Winning, nay, cunning strategy...

10-13-2009, 05:07 AM	#18 (permalink)
simpswr Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: May 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 12,190 OS: XP, Vista, Win 7	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT . . . Stayin' the course . .. worked great last time around!! __________________ Rich MemTest86 \| BenchTest \| Virus/Trojan/Spyware Help How to post a Screen Shot \| PC running slow?

10-14-2009, 10:26 AM	#19 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,692 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Mrs. Pelosi's VAT This is not a health care debate. I am the one who predicted 3 years ago that the liberals would raise my taxes......... and I make less than BHO's cutoff for tax hikes. __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"