Jason

In Oklahoma, things are heating up. On November 1, the state will put into effect a law that allows personal details about abortion patients to be published on an openly available website.

House Bill 1595 would require medical personnel to supply detailed information about abortions they perform to the Oklahoma State Department of Health. The bill, which will cost more than $281,000 to implement, according to Rep. Wanda Jo Stapleton-D, of Oklahoma City, would provide all abortion patients to fill out a questionare, which includes the date of the abortion performed, the county, the marital status and race of the mother.

http://www.examiner.com/x-25569-Rale...records-public

Mcninjaguy

It should've stayed private

simpswr

Something tells me that this will not last 10 mins in front of the Supreme Court

djaburg

Although I'm not a supporter of abortion, I find this law to a complete violation of personal privacy. Even if it were a publicly funded one, I don't see how any legislative body could possibly have thought this was a good idea.

Drew1369

Definitely a violation of personal privacy... however no abortion should be covered by taxes...

That said... everything minus classified projects funded by taxes are available with an FOIA request...

Chode

How should this procedure be different from any other procedure that a doctor performs for a patient? If the abortion is legally performed by a doctor, why should funding be handled any differently from a colonoscopy? Who appointed you the moral judge and jury for the entire world?

Let's just take an extreme case. Say that a 12 year old girl is raped and impregnated by her father. Would you be opposed to her being eligible for Medicaid funding for an abortion? Maybe she could ask Dad to give her an advance on her allowance? Yard sales and bake sales are supposed to be good fund raisers. Heck, in a pinch begging might do it.

Hey, Drew, assuming you got bent over a pool table some night by a couple of drunken bikers and were treated to a walk on the wild side, would you be worrying about a little bundle of joy 9 months down the road? Nah, didn't think so.

Chode

Hello, Drew, let's just pursue your little Biker Party further. How about if you contracted AIDS. Should AIDS treatment be paid for by taxes? How much could we save if Medicare refused to pay for smokers health problems?

But I know you are going to say that there's a prohibition against abortion in the Bible. Show me the verse.

djaburg

I don't think that most people would be opposed to assisting a rape victim, but their much less tolerant of an irresponsible child expecting the same. I know I would certainly have an issue with it. I think people need to be responsible for their actions, in school and in life. Surely there are circumstances that come up, like your example, where it's not the girls fault because she was raped.

And on a side note, I think our county DOES need to establish principles, standards, and values that we should all strive to live by. Some people may not like that they can't do some things legally, but in a modern civilization you can't necessarily have a free for all AND order at the same time. I don't think that he was trying to be moral judge and jury for the whole world, but just voicing his opinion on what HE felt was proper. And who decided that YOU should judge him to be wrong?

Chode

Simple answer. You can either decide that any behaviors that fall outside of your personal standards should be prohibited, or that the nation should be governed by a rule of law that transcends individual superstition and the religious dogma of various sects and creeds.

What ever beliefs Drew holds are between him and God, but that doesn't make a good basis for national law. It isn't my view that makes Drew wrong: it's the law of our nation that doesn't tie our judicial system to any specific religious creed. Drew's aversion to abortion doesn't carry any more authority than Muslims that think all women should wear the Burkha or Hindus who believe that Suttee is acceptable. What makes Drew wrong in trying to impose his religious views on the rest of us is the U.S. Constitution.

djaburg

Much like the Constitution and subsequent bill of rights establish that we have the right to keep and bear arms and despite someone's own "individual superstition or religious dogma" that right should not be infringed, right? I also think that there's nothing in the constitution that provides for state paid abortions either, so it's a pretty moot point. In fact there's nothing in the constitution about federally established health insurance for the masses. We do, however, have free speech and that's what allows for debate.

Chode

Just how does the issue of Second Amendment Rights enter in this debate? Well, that would be nowhere. What you seem to overlook is that the Constitution doesn't include a provision either for or against Universal Health Coverage. Therefore, it just becomes a legislative matter.

Since the Constitution is silent on the subject of permitted medical procedures, I don't see how the Federal Government could restrict abortions, tummy tucks, nose jobs, or any treatments approved by Congress. There is nothing in the Constitution that provides for, or prohibits, Veteran's Health Services, Medicare, or Medicaid.

I understand that there will always be persons who are willing to accept the crap fed to them by their ministers and regurgitate it as "reason", when it actually just reflects some line they've been fed since childhood. I resent the suggestion that God is actually so stupid as to expect most people to believe the Evangelical line.

Drew1369

Let me make this clear to you again chode... do to your lack of memory...

I am pro-choice, do not forget that... but as before, taxes should not be used for personal decisions...

rape victims are an extenuating circumstances, upon which I have made clear before, again for your short memory.

Jason

Does that mean we should pay for breast implants too. What about tummy tucks? Where do we draw the line for paying for surgeries?

djaburg

MY reference to the second amendment illustrates how selective our nation is about dealing with their beliefs versus what's granted in the constitution. It would appear that you are atheist or agnostic and that's certainly your right, however, from where do people draw the line in the sand of what's right and what's wrong, morally? I think the framers of this nation had a concept of how this nation would fair without morality, and most assuredly they learned from the failures of other previous nations that crumbled without that moral compass to give direction.

bry623

Simple solution, don't get an abortion in Oklahoma. Wichita and Dallas are not that far from OKC.

yustr

Are you going to chauffeur the ones who can't drive?

Chode

I see I hit lots of nerves when I said that I favored taxes to pay for abortion. And some respondents seemed to feel that I couldn't be a Christian and support abortion. Yeah, I've seen those bumper stickers too.

For those of you who equate abortion with elective surgeries such as face lifts or tummy tucks, I find it difficult to express the degree of disgust I feel toward anyone who could hold this view. Whatever the reasons might be that a woman would choose abortion, her decision about whether or not to bring a child into the world has consequences that go far beyond the results of cosmetic surgery. If the mother doesn't want her child, who will raise it? Who will pay the bills?

There are around 130,000 children right now in the foster care system who need homes. They are often the children of abuse and neglect. Many of them have special needs. Each year about 26 thousand of these kids leave the foster care system without being adopted and the statistics of what happens later are frightening.

But, of course, it's much easier to climb up on a moral high horse and deplore abortion instead of dealing with the often unpleasant reality of the issue. I fully understand that there are women for whom the decision to abort a child takes no more thought than a sneeze. I also understand how easy it is for men who will never face the decision of whether or not to bear a child, to presume to make decisions for women. Sorry, but I guess I missed those stories in the Bible where Jesus pushed his way to the front of the line so he could get first choice of rocks whenever there was a stoning.

Once again, for all those who have some religious aversion to abortion, show me the chapter and verse that says it is a sin. No one replied to my request before, and I don't expect to get a response now.

Chode

Sorry, about my short memory, but where do you state any of those views on this thread?

djaburg

The disgust? I can't express the disgust I have for sex between kids or adults that don't have the brains to resist their urges OR take appropriate precautions to NOT get pregnant. I don't feel the need to pay for someone that didn't feel the respect for themselves or the forethought to take precautions. Perhaps I'm just an old fart that doesn't get it. But, yes I engaged in pre-marital sex, but I did so while taking precautions. At what point do people need to be responsible for their actions?

Frankly it doesn't matter that you have disgust for my views, but I sleep very well at night knowing that I've prepared my own kids for leading a responsible productive life that doesn't include living on public sustenance. Will they make mistakes? Maybe, I hope they don't, but things happen. I certainly wouldn't expect my neighbors to foot the bill though.

As for the children currently in the foster care system I feel horrible for anyone that goes through that. Some of these kids are behind the curve and they haven't even really begun their life. It does bother me that this situation exists. Is abortion the ultimate answer? I don't think so, I think parents need to educate as a great first step!

Drew1369

So from what I get from you chode is that we should just kill the 130 thousand kids... why not... burden to society and all...

and I didn't realize I needed to point out that I'm pro-choice on every thread that it comes up...

but I guess I will for you chode... since everytime the argument comes up you think I'm anti-abortion