Proposition 8

**djaburg** · 05-26-2009, 02:09 PM

The California Supreme Court on Tuesday upheld a voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage, but also decided that the estimated 18,000 gay couples who tied the knot before the law took effect will stay wed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30936298/

bry623 · 05-26-2009, 02:12 PM

Makes sense. Thankfully the court ruled that a majority of Californians have the right to pass laws for their state.

RedScott · 05-26-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Makes sense. Thankfully the court ruled that a majority of Californians have the right to pass laws for their state.

Do you think that if the majority of Alabamians thought that slavery should be legal, that should be codified as law as well?

**djaburg** · 05-26-2009, 03:35 PM

I'm sure that slavery is a bit different than gay marriage, don't ya think?

**sobeit** · 05-26-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedScott

Do you think that if the majority of Alabamians thought that slavery should be legal, that should be codified as law as well?

marriage is voluntary servitude by both parties, slavery is involuntary servitude by one party, big difference

RedScott · 05-26-2009, 03:53 PM

Oooookay, so as of that makes any difference at all, let me re-phrase the question:

If the majority of people in California thought that it should be illegal for two people to do something mutually agreeable to both parties, say getting divorced should THAT be codified as law? Should the majority be able to dictate to the minority that they CAN NOT, under penalty of law, get divorced from their spouse?

**djaburg** · 05-26-2009, 04:35 PM

Well using that logic we can say that the majority cannot determine what becomes law in this country, because that would be unfair to the people that don't agree with the law. I think it is more analogous to say that the people in CA have drawn a line with respect to their values. And yes I've heard the arguments before that it's not "fair" or "right" to impose one persons values on another, but I don't entirely agree. This nation was founded on the premise that the people would determine what they felt was in their best interest and would enact laws to protect that. That's what appears to have happened in this case. I've also heard that voting against gay marriage makes you hateful or bigoted or ignorant. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as they are voting based on their beliefs, and others are voting based on theirs, and isn't that what democracy is all about?

yustr · 05-26-2009, 04:37 PM

You've heard me say this before but its perfectly appropriate here: The purpose of law is protect the minority FROM the majority.

I'm with Red on this one. Actually, I say get rid of all religious association with marriage - every one of them should be civil unions. Then you're free to go through whatever ritual your church demands. It's like a barmitzvah, it's meaningless to the State.

**djaburg** · 05-26-2009, 05:19 PM

Well my assumption is that like many things, people are pretty set in their take on this issue. I've got a better idea, let's all grab a cold adult beverage of your choice (cold corona with lime sounds good right now) and take in a ball game or go fishing. So for at least a short time nature, a cold brew, and relaxation will conspire to put a smile on the face and give us all an appreciation that we live in a country that allows us to have lively debate...

**40sondacurb** · 05-26-2009, 05:45 PM

Marriage is just one form of civil union. Gays still have the right to the other type of civil union not called marriage as expressly stated in this ruling.

It is a semantic difference. Rather than slaver vs freedom Red, it's more like freedom vs liberty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by djaburg

Well my assumption is that like many things, people are pretty set in their take on this issue. I've got a better idea, let's all grab a cold adult beverage of your choice (cold corona with lime sounds good right now) and take in a ball game or go fishing. So for at least a short time nature, a cold brew, and relaxation will conspire to put a smile on the face and give us all an appreciation that we live in a country that allows us to have lively debate...

I disagree, how about Does Exes and Orange.

**Drew1369** · 05-26-2009, 06:03 PM

As I have stated before... everything should be a civil union and you call it whatever you want...

However, it is still abit refreshing to see that the courts upheld the voters wishes...

yustr · 05-26-2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djaburg

Well my assumption is that like many things, people are pretty set in their take on this issue. I've got a better idea, let's all grab a cold adult beverage of your choice (cold corona with lime sounds good right now) and take in a ball game or go fishing. So for at least a short time nature, a cold brew, and relaxation will conspire to put a smile on the face and give us all an appreciation that we live in a country that allows us to have lively debate...

Make mine a nice IPA. Life's to short to drink bad beer.

**djaburg** · 05-26-2009, 06:39 PM

Didn't you get the memo, it's BYOB! All brews welcome!

bry623 · 05-26-2009, 08:16 PM

The bottom line is that a simple majority can change the California Constitution and that is what happened. The California people past a law, the courts over turned it so Californians amended their constitution. You may not like it, but it is THE LAW. Since no federal law legalizes gay marriage or not (btw RED, slavery is illegal in all states) it is up to the individual states to decide and California did. For me, this issue was less about gay marriages than the courts taking the rights of the people away. Now, if CA gets a repeal to pass, then I would feel the same way about the courts making gay marriage illegal.

As a note I live in the state that has the toughest gay marriage law.
http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph...mendment_(2004)

05-26-2009, 02:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,147 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Proposition 8 The California Supreme Court on Tuesday upheld a voter-approved ban on same-sex marriage, but also decided that the estimated 18,000 gay couples who tied the knot before the law took effect will stay wed. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30936298/ __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

05-26-2009, 02:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,581 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Proposition 8 Makes sense. Thankfully the court ruled that a majority of Californians have the right to pass laws for their state. __________________ I won a nobel prize too!!

05-26-2009, 03:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,147 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Proposition 8 I'm sure that slavery is a bit different than gay marriage, don't ya think? __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

05-26-2009, 03:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 496 OS: Windows XP	Re: Proposition 8 Oooookay, so as of that makes any difference at all, let me re-phrase the question: If the majority of people in California thought that it should be illegal for two people to do something mutually agreeable to both parties, say getting divorced should THAT be codified as law? Should the majority be able to dictate to the minority that they CAN NOT, under penalty of law, get divorced from their spouse?

05-26-2009, 04:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,147 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Proposition 8 Well using that logic we can say that the majority cannot determine what becomes law in this country, because that would be unfair to the people that don't agree with the law. I think it is more analogous to say that the people in CA have drawn a line with respect to their values. And yes I've heard the arguments before that it's not "fair" or "right" to impose one persons values on another, but I don't entirely agree. This nation was founded on the premise that the people would determine what they felt was in their best interest and would enact laws to protect that. That's what appears to have happened in this case. I've also heard that voting against gay marriage makes you hateful or bigoted or ignorant. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as they are voting based on their beliefs, and others are voting based on theirs, and isn't that what democracy is all about? __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery. Last edited by djaburg; 05-26-2009 at 04:37 PM.

05-26-2009, 04:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 5,980 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Proposition 8 You've heard me say this before but its perfectly appropriate here: The purpose of law is protect the minority FROM the majority. I'm with Red on this one. Actually, I say get rid of all religious association with marriage - every one of them should be civil unions. Then you're free to go through whatever ritual your church demands. It's like a barmitzvah, it's meaningless to the State. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

05-26-2009, 05:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,147 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Proposition 8 Well my assumption is that like many things, people are pretty set in their take on this issue. I've got a better idea, let's all grab a cold adult beverage of your choice (cold corona with lime sounds good right now) and take in a ball game or go fishing. So for at least a short time nature, a cold brew, and relaxation will conspire to put a smile on the face and give us all an appreciation that we live in a country that allows us to have lively debate... __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

05-26-2009, 06:03 PM	#11 (permalink)
Drew1369 TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,366 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Proposition 8 As I have stated before... everything should be a civil union and you call it whatever you want... However, it is still abit refreshing to see that the courts upheld the voters wishes... __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

05-26-2009, 06:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
djaburg TSF Enthusiast Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 1,147 OS: XP SP3/Vista/7 Server 2K/2K3/2K8	Re: Proposition 8 Didn't you get the memo, it's BYOB! All brews welcome! __________________ Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make it easier to do don't need to be done. The inherent vice of capitalism is the uneven division of blessings, while the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal division of misery.

05-26-2009, 08:16 PM	#14 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,581 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Proposition 8 The bottom line is that a simple majority can change the California Constitution and that is what happened. The California people past a law, the courts over turned it so Californians amended their constitution. You may not like it, but it is THE LAW. Since no federal law legalizes gay marriage or not (btw RED, slavery is illegal in all states) it is up to the individual states to decide and California did. For me, this issue was less about gay marriages than the courts taking the rights of the people away. Now, if CA gets a repeal to pass, then I would feel the same way about the courts making gay marriage illegal. As a note I live in the state that has the toughest gay marriage law. http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.ph...mendment_(2004) __________________ I won a nobel prize too!!