bry623

http://www.reuters.com/article/polit...54C54Y20090513

More change you can believe in!

Drew1369

I don't know what it is with me and duplicate posts lately... delete please

Drew1369

While I like Obama breaking promises because it shows his true nature... I do like this flip-flop. When the Abu Graib photos were released it caused a huge storm and recruitment within AlQaida and the Iraqi insurgents.

Obama is actually looking out for someone other then himself on this...

Chode

Another testimonial from the "whatever Obama does is wrong" movement. Thanks Bry. Of course, had he gone ahead with plans to release the photos, you'd have been indignant because he was endangering our troops.

I think the entire torture investigation should be put on the back burner. I believe that the whole issue is too fresh for any chance of rational debate, and it's just going to devolve into finger pointing and name calling. Oh, wait! In some quarters it already has!

I just don't see that the country's interests are going to be well served by this. And yep, I'm happy to subordinate my sense of justice to expediency until emotions cool a bit.

The thing that truly amazes me is that Republicans think they've found a real hotbutton issue with Obama's reversal and the contention that a few Democratic Congressmen were aware of harsh interrogation techniques. And then you guys go on and on in an attempt to justify the use of methods that are in fact very clearly illegal. At the end of WWII, the U.S. prosecuted Japanese officers as war criminals because they had used waterboarding as an interrogation technique.

Do you actually think this strategy serves either the nation or your party? I guess you do, or we wouldn't be subjected to it. But, then, I believe you thought McCain would win the election?

Fine. If Republicans are determined to be as confrontational as possible, go for it. I have 3 dogs; a Collie, a German Shepard/Lab mix, and a Chihuahua. The Chihuahua is by far the most aggressive, loudest, and most annoying of the 3. You guys want to push this debate as a purely partisan issue, let me be the first to hand you more rope.

40sondacurb

Bry didn't make the catch 22, Obama did by making the promise. Not that I'm agreeing with bry of course (). I think he's doing the right thing; which is what I elected him to do. Too bad it cost him some honor.

Chode

It didn't cost him any honor. Obama realized he made a mistake and changed course. Wish to Hell Wubbya had understood the concept. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and say "I was wrong. Here's how I'm changing things." It isn't easy, but as a manager, you can bet your workers knew you screwed up before you figured it out. So, you fix the problem. That's what being a good leader is about, too.

Meanwhile, I have a large delivery of rope out on the loading dock, and I'm waiting for Republicans to collect it.

bry623

His mistake with the photos, or now the tribunals. And don't forget taxgate 1,2, and 3. Oh and the NYC flyover fail. Those of you who voted for change got none...... except a president who spend more time campaigning across the country than sitting at his desk doing his job.

Chode

Anytime I feel the need to immerse myself in a reality distortion field, it's good to know you're available. Amazing how short memories can be when it's good for the cause. Sherman, set the Wayback Machine to 2001 and let's look at some of Wubbya's cabinet nominees.

How about Linda Chavez? What a kind heart she has! She helped so many illegal aliens through times of troubles, and even let one live at her home and do some occasional light cleaning. No windows, of course. Linda withdrew from consideration as Secretary of Labor.

Then, of course, there was Attorney General nominee John Ashcroft. Probably, John's most controversial moment was in 2000, when " Ashcroft met with Thomas Bugel, local president of the Council of Conservative Citizens (based in Missouri), to discuss the case of Dr. Charles T. Sell, a St. Louis dentist and CofCC member indicted for several crimes including plotting to murder an FBI agent and a federal witness. Ashcroft subsequently wrote to the federal Justice Department on Sell's behalf. Following Ashcroft's nomination for federal attorney general and the subsequent public exposure of that meeting and letter, Ashcroft's spokeswoman Mindy Tucker asserted that he had not known that Bugel was associated with the CofCC, when Bugel had been a member of the St. Louis school board vociferously defending segregation, and Ashcroft had been attorney general and governor of Missouri. During that period, Bugel's leadership of the local branch of the CofCC, the Metro South Citizens Council, was often noted in the media.[18]

Ashcroft had previously denounced the CofCC as racist, after a controversial interview in Southern Partisan magazine in which he expressed views that Conason interpreted as pro-Confederacy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ashcroft

This has nothing to do with Ashcroft's qualification (or lack of same) but he is the only man in history to have lost a Senate race to a dead man. Made me laugh, anyway.

Time and CNN also listed some other issues with Ashcroft's nomination : "The former senator is under fire for his pro-life views, his efforts to derail judicial appointments of blacks and women and his affiliation with Bob Jones University, where he received an honorary degree." http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...,94230,00.html

Next there was Gale Norton. "Gale Norton, the interior secretary-designate, faces fierce opposition from environmental groups for her well-documented interest in opening the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to oil exploration and her belief that protected lands should be open for "multiple uses" like logging or industry." Citation once again from the previous link. Lest anyone just think this was random musing, Norton had a well documented history as a lobbyist for several mining and energy companies.

"Norton was listed with the Colorado Legislature as a lobbyist for, among others, NL Industries, a Houston company formerly known as National Lead Company. Norton's Denver law firm -- Brownstein Hyatt & Farber -- was also listed with the U.S. Congress as a lobbyist for NL Industries.[3]

In 1999, Norton joined Brownstein Hyatt & Farber. Congressional records revealed in 2001 that the law firm lobbied in Washington for a total of 45 clients, "including some with political interests before the Interior Department": Delta Petroleum Corporation (interested in 'offshore resources'); Timet-Titanium Metals Corporation (metals processor); the Shaw Group (makes pipes for oil companies and power plants); Ustman Technologies (monitors underground storage tanks); and Warren Rogers Associates (sells products and services for chemical and petroleum storage tanks).[4] " http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...Gale_A._Norton

So, how about those tribunals? GlobalSecurity.org reports the following procedural changes under the Obama Administration. " The President has determined to reform military commissions as an available forum, along with the federal courts, for the prosecution of detainees at Guantanamo.

As part of that, the secretary of defense will be sending to Congress several changes to the rules for military commissions. These rule changes do not require a change in law, but the law does require that DoD gives Congress 60 days’ notice before the rules are implemented. DoD believes these rule changes will improve the process. The effect of these proposed rule changes are:

* Statements obtained using interrogation methods that constitute cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment will no longer be admitted as evidence at a trial.
* Limits use of hearsay. For hearsay, shifts the burden of proof to the party who offers it. The burden is no longer on the party who objects to hearsay to disprove its reliability; the burden is now on party who offers it to prove its reliability.
* To permit the accused greater latitude in selecting his defense counsel.
* To provide greater protections for the accused who refuses to testify. Current practice permits the judge to instruct the jury that it may consider the fact that the accused refused to testify and subject himself to cross-examination if he offers his own prior hearsay statements. This practice would be eliminated.
* Jurisdiction. The rule changes would codify existing practice that military commissions judges may establish the jurisdiction of their own courts. Under prior practice, jurisdiction for a military commission to hear a case was established by a prior Combatant Status Review Tribunal.

In the pending military commissions cases, the government will also seek an additional 120-day continuance of the cases, while the rule changes are reviewed by Congress, and the administration continues to develop its legislative proposals.

*Continuance date corrected on 15 May 2009.


http://www.defenselink.mil/Releases/...eleaseID=12680 "

I was confused by your remark about Obama not spending enough time at his desk, because I thought that was a hallmark of Wubbya's two terms in office. Damn! turns out I was right about that! In fact, during his 2 terms in office, Wubbya visited Camp David a total of 487 days, and Crawford a total of 490 days. That would be about a third of his two terms.

RedScott

Wait, so you think the mistake was saying he was going to release to photos, and by changing course you mean he is not going to? It's not Obama's decision, you know? He's legally obligated to disclose the information as per 4, I think, separate rulings by Federal judges. He's essentially in violation of the law until he does release them.

And by the way, since I'm not a republican, is it okay if I criticize Obama for being the hypocritical a-hole that he is?

Chode

Actually, I think anyone, be they Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or drooling idiot is entitled to criticize any of our leaders for any reason.

Somewhere along the way, I guess I overlooked the court rulings that obligate Obama to release the photos in question. See, Red, how this works is you include your citations with your post, and we can save a step or two in the whole "he said, she said " exchange. Still I know you'll provide references, and we can move forward with a discussion that rises above using the term "a-hole" even though I have to give you credit for the most creativity you've shown on the forum to date.

RedScott

Here are two of them anyway.

Well you know how it is with the auto-censorship and all....

bry623

With all of those citations, it almost seems as if we have no change.
Camp David is the presidential retreat. Crawford is Bush's home. I have no problem with the president going home to get away, or going to Camp David (aka. White House Lite).
Making speeches at various venues across the country is what people running for office do.