Laptopcharacter

I was referring more to what it was implying (i.e. that our nation doesn't like mention of the one and true living God's name, Jesus)...
That was what I recognized as being true.
And of course that last comment you made only confirms it... "The truth is our fore fathers set up out constitution to be religion neutral"
Call Him anything but his true and only name. That's the attitude this nation has in general, and needs to repent. In fact, according to the Scriptures, all men need to repent (or perish). We need to recognize that each one of us needs a Savior, because we're all sinners.

k2skier

Not gonna debate you here LTC, start a new thread if you want to talk about fairy tales and an invisible man living in the sky.

NOW, this is FUNNY-

YouTube - TROJAN Stimulus

Laptopcharacter

Well, no...
The Bible is not a fairy tale, and God is not a man.

k2skier

You are correct, the Bible is a man created dogma, a bottom up religion, and God is what ever you imagine him to be.


http://www.religioustolerance.org/index_about.htm

From the above link
All, or almost all, theistic religions are "bottom-up" faiths. That is, their beliefs, practices and holy books are the creation of humans trying to comprehend the deity or deities that they have created.



Great analogy, and freaking hilarious!

Hank, aka-The God Theory



This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well-groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:


“Hi ! I’m John, and this is Mary.”

Mary: “Hi! We’re here to invite you to come kiss Hank’s azz with us.”

Me: “Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who is Hank, and why would I like to kiss his azz?”

John: “If you kiss Hank’s azz, he’ll give you a million dollars. If you don’t kiss his azz, he’ll kick the sh_t out of you.”

Me: “Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?”

John: “Let me explain. Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a million dollars - but he can’t until you kiss his azz.”

Me: “That makes no sense at all. Why the...”

Mary: “Who are you to question Hank’s gift? Don’t you want a million dollars? Isn’t it worth a little kiss on the azz?”

Me: “Well it might be - if it’s legit, but...”

John: “Then come and kiss Hank’s azz with us.”

Me: “Do you kiss Hank’s azz often?”

Mary: “Oh yes, all the time...”

Me: “And have you gotten a million dollars?”

John: “Well, no. You don’t actually get the money until you leave town.”

Me: “So why don’t you just leave town now?”

Mary: “You can’t leave town until Hank tells you to, or you don’t get the money - and Hank kicks the sh_t out of you.

Me: “Do you know anyone who’s kissed Hank’s azz, left town, and received the million dollars?”

John: “Oh, sure. My mother kissed Hank’s azz for years - she left town last year, and I’m sure she got the money.”

Me: “Haven’t you spoken with her since then?”

John: “Of course not. Hank doesn’t allow that.”

Me: “So what makes you think he’ll actually give you the money if you’ve never talked to anyone who got the money?”

Mary: “Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you get a raise or win a small lotto. Maybe you’ll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street.”

Me: “What’s any of that got to do with Hank?”

John: “Well, Hank has certain... connections.”

Me: “I’m sorry, but this all sounds like some sort of bizarre con game.”

John: “But it’s a million dollars! Can you really afford to take the chance? And remember, if you don’t kiss Hank’s *** he’ll kick the **** out of you.

Me: “Maybe if I could meet with Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him...”

Mary: “No. No one sees Hank. No one talks with Hank.”

Me: “Well then how do you kiss his ***?”

John: “Oh, sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his azz. Other times we kiss Karl’s azz, and he passes it along to Hank.”

Me: “Who’s Karl?”

Mary: “A friend of ours. He’s the one who taught us all about kissing Hank’s azz - all we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times.”

Me: “And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that he would pass along your azz kiss to him, and that Hank would reward you with a million dollars?”

John: “Oh no! There’s proof! Karl has a letter that Hank sent him years ago which explains the whole thing. Here’s a copy; see for yourself.”

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo. The letterhead was: “from the desk of Karl.”

1. Kiss Hank’s azz and he’ll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the sh_t out of people who are not like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don’t drink.
10. Eat your hotdogs on buns. No condiments.
11. Kiss Hank’s azz or he’ll kick the sh_t out of you.

Me: “This appears to be written on Karl’s letterhead.”

Mary: “Hank didn’t have any paper.”

Me: “I certainly hope he washed his hands. I have a hunch that if we checked, we’d find that this is actually Karl’s handwriting.”

John: “Well of course it is. Hank dictated it to him.

Me: “I thought you said that no one gets to see or talk to Hank.”

Mary: “Oh well, not now. But years ago he would talk to some people.”

Me: “Hmmm. I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist goes around kicking the **** out of people just because they’re different?”

Mary: “It’s Hank’s way. It’s what he wants - and Hank is always right.”

Me: “How do you figure that?”

Mary: “Item # 7 says, ‘Everything Hank says is right.’ That’s good enough for me.”

Me: “What makes you so sure your friend Karl didn’t just make this whole thing up.”

John: “No way! Item # 5 says ‘Hank dictated this list himself.’ Besides, item #2 says, ‘Use alcohol in moderation’, item # 4 says, ‘Eat right’, and item # 8 says, ‘Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.’ Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true too.”

Me: “But item # 9 says, ‘Don’t drink,’ which conflicts with item # 2, and item # 6 says, ‘The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong.”

John: “There’s no conflict between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you’ve never been to the moon, so you really can’t say for sure that it isn’t made of green cheese.”

Me: “Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock...”

Mary: “But they don’t know if the rock came from the Earth or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green cheese.”

Me: “I’m not really an expert, but I think the theory that the moon came from space has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn’t make it cheese.”

John: “Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes! But we know that Hank is always right.”

Me: “We do?”

Mary: “Of course we do. Item # 5 says so.”

Me: “So you’re saying that Hank is always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That’s called circular logic. It’s no different than saying that Hank is right because he says he right.”

John: “Now you’re getting it! It’s so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank’s way of thinking.”

Me: “But I didn’t... oh, never mind. What’s the deal with the hotdogs?”

(Mary blushes, letting her companion answer)

John: “Hotdogs in buns only, no condiments. It’s Hank’s way. Anything else is wrong.

Me: “But what if I don’t have a bun?”

John: “No bun, no hotdog. A hotdog without a bun is wrong.”

Me: “No mustard? No relish?”

(Mary looks positively stricken, her face ashen white)

John: “There’s no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!”

Me: “So then, I suppose that a big pile of sauerkraut with some hotdogs cut up in it would be out of the question?”

John: “That’s disgusting! Only some evil-minded deviate would eat that...”

Me: “It’s good! I eat it all the time.

(Mary faints. John catches her, dragging her off to their waiting car.)

John: “Well! If I’d known you were one of THOSE, I wouldn’t have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the sh_t out of you, I’ll be there - laughing and counting my money. In the meantime, Mary and I will kiss Hank’s azz for you - you bunless, cut-wienered kraut-eating b_st_rd!”

yustr

Seems folks want to debate the existance of God.

Here's your chance. As usual in the PS, please keep it civil and non-personal.

Chode

So I guess now isn't the time to observe that the Bible says all fairies must die or to speculate that God is a woman?

Drew1369

Religion killed faith...

Laptopcharacter

Wrong again...
The Bible was NOT created by man. It is His inspired Word.
And you will find out one day (whether in this life or next) that He lives, and is NOT made-up. You can count on it...
Moreover you will find out (as will we all) that there is only ONE true and living God. And his name is Jesus (in English, at least).
And the Bible is true (it has been proven countless times, btw, though that is not what makes it true). Everything that it says will eventually come to pass (some of it already has).
For starters...flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:20).
HOWEVER, there is hope for humans, because the spirit inside this flesh is immortal, IF we submit to His lordship over us, and walk in HIS works, not our own. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (1 Cor 5:10)
God has promised eternal life to us, as is seen in John 10:28:

and again in John 17:3

But, as we can see in Acts 13:48, there are a few requirements to attaining eternal life...

So here you can see, believing God's word (and trusting that He will do what he says) is one of the requirements of attaining eternal life.

And here is a "few" more good Scriptures on this subject. Read the whole chapter of Romans 2.
And a few more...

Romans 5:21
Romans 6:23
1 Timothy 6:12

1 Timothy 6:19
Titus 1:2
Titus 3:7
1 John 1:2
I think you should be beginning to see the point...
1 John 2:25
1 John 3:15

1 John 5:11
So, as you can see, there are a few requirements to attain eternal life. The only other option that I see in the Scriptures is eternal damnation, and what kind of jack@ss would I be if I did not choose the former?
Common sense should help anyone see the light (btw, Jesus IS light (John 8:12) ).
I must work out my own salvation with fear and trembling.

Philippians 2:12
It is a constant day-to-day struggle, between good and evil, between flesh and God's Holy Spirit (for they are contrary, one to another), and each day I give ground to the enemy (that is, that wicked one, Satan, and his wicked angels), it means I will have to walk back up the same path again, towards God, and each step lost will have to be regained, so that I can press forward to victory, and attain the prize of our high-calling.

Drew1369

Take no offense in this laptop, I really mean that... same to you to k2skier...

But its both of you bickering and reading scripture and holding on to each of your faiths like a crutch is the reason why I think religion killed faith.

I believe in God, and Jesus as his son and my savior...

However, the bible IS written by man, which does not make it infallible. So is the Book of Mormon, the Koran and the Tanakh. All written and re-written by MAN. God created man as an imperfect being, therefor how can you hold true belief that the Bible is absolute.

Look at everything being found. Books that should have been in the Bible but left out. How can you hold faith in an incomplete collection.

God exists, and provides comfort in his believers. Why some people feal the need to deride those that believe is beyond me. Why some people feel the need to inform those that believe their belief that he does not exist, and it goes the other way around.

Accept the fact that you are not going to change those that are set in their ways.

djaburg

Hmm...if people that worship Christ are Christians, and people who worship Buddha are Buddhists, wouldn't people who worship Moroni be Moron's?


J/K

k2skier

Not trying to "change" anyone's mind, just would like to open the "closed door" mind a little.

This says it very nicely. Materialism as in the material world, not possessions.


Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free (IE freethinkers) from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural influence in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. it teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive to always improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism's "faith" is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

Drew1369

That's your belief K2. You are just as close minded and many religions people. Being an atheist does not make you a freethinker or open minded. You are just as stuck in your ways as everyone else.

Your belief does not have supremacy over anyone else's. Such a close minded view if I've ever heard one.

csc2000e

I don't think you can just call people close minded because they have a set of beliefs that they believe are true. People aren't called "close minded" for saying that murder is wrong. Just because you have convictions, whatever they may be, doesn't necessarily mean that you are "close minded".

Chode

Actually, when you quote your faith's scripture to prove your scripture is correct, you are definitely closed minded. I doubt you could find a better example than laptop's long string of Biblical quotations. Perhaps a better test of a faith's validity might be what it says to move non-believers. I'm thinking in more spiritual terms than "Kill the heretics!" here.

k2skier

Nope. Completely wrong. I'm bound in my thinking only by logic, and not an antiquated dogma, I am more of a free thinker than you or laptop, by far. And Christianity has no more validity than Muslim, Judaism, Mormonism or Atheism. I'm not saying I am right, just it's my opinion and many others also, atheists are about 2 steps below homosexuals in polls on acceptance in society. I'm here to show everyone atheists have morals and ethics, more so than a lot of so called Christians.



I believe everyone should be able to do and believe what they want, as long as they do what our fore fathers set up in our constitution, and keep church and state separate. The last 8 years our POTUS has been fear mongering the world on all things Islam and Muslim, which is being a terrorist by definition of the terrorist act and morally and factually just wrong.


Here's something to chew on.

YouTube - How To Shut Up Pesky Creationists

And a nice debate in another forum.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/scienc...evolution.html

What about the other 21 major religions of the world, are they all wrong and Christianity is the only right one?

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html


Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand



No, I am completely open minded, to logic and what's real, factual and proveable.

The Bible doesn't answer any "why's" only "how's". If God shows up and proves himself to be real, of course I'd believe, but until then, I need proof, not stories.

One should not live their life on how to spend eternity, they should live their life as to make their life and others better now, while were all living, because death is what makes life so precious.

Drew1369

thank you for proving my point...

You claim logic dictates how you live, how is that any different from someone who has God dictate how they live?

21 major religions... yes they have their own belief structure... are they wrong and I am right... I don't know, I couldn't possibly know.

What makes you right, and everyone else wrong?

Laptopcharacter

csc2000e: You make a good point. I also think there is a line between right and wrong, and though I may be called "close-minded" just because I have beliefs, if all are seen in that same narrow-minded concept, are we not all "close-minded", because we all have beliefs (yes, even Drew, since he *believes* I am "close-minded" just because I have beliefs...).
Yet, there is a difference between believing what is true, and believing what is false. Though we all at times believe certain things that are false, I am 100% sure this is truth on this one.
Well, no...
It is not just "my faith's Scripture" that I quoted, it is the Living God's words! And He DOESN'T lie.
You want to know what it says to move non-believers? Here's a few...

Psalms 14:1-7 (the whole chapter)

Psalms 53:1-6 (the whole chapter)
Luke 13:1-3
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
Revelation 20:11-15
Chode: So you ask what is the conversion message to non-believers? You just heard it! Repent or perish. I didn't say it...King David said it, Jesus said it, Paul said it.
And as you could see in the last Scripture of my last quote, it says "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire". If you backtrack in the book of Revelation, you will see that only those who overcame were written in the book of life, so that means that whosoever did not overcome were not found in the book of life, and consequently, they were cast into the lake of fire.
You may ask the question of what needs to be overcome. Well, I'll tell you...in the form of a "few" more Scriptures.
Romans 12:21
Here, you can see the thing it names to be overcome is evil, and to overcome it with good.
2 Pet 2:22 (the whole chapter)
Here, the key verse is (20) "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."
This implies that if you're not overcoming, you're being overcome, and what is overcoming you (if indeed it be that you're being overcome) in this case is the pollutions of the world. So, to follow that logical train of thought, one could also say he needs to overcome the pollutions of the world, so he is not overcome by them.

So, so far we have two things that need to be overcome:

• evil
• pollutions of the world

But, it goes on...

1 John 2:13
So what can be drawn from that scripture is that another thing that man needs to be overcome (so he is not overcome by it) is the wicked one.

That brings up the question "who is the wicked one".

Answer:

Well, we know it is Satan, the destroyer, the deciever, the one that made up lies in the first place, and the one that causes us to lie, because the Scriptures clearly say so.

God is truth, and the worker of truth. Satan is lies, and the worker of lies.
God is a creator. Satan is a destroyer.
God came down (in the form of His son, Jesus) to bring salvation to the world.
Satan came down to bring destruction and death (not to mention sin!).
God creates (Genesis chapter 1 and 2). Satan destroys, and attempts to undo what God has already done (read Genesis chapter 3).
God brought life unto men.
Satan brought death unto men (by sin).
God is seeking to restore a personal relationship with men, who have to submit to His lordship.
Satan is seeking to further the breath between man and God.
God gave up His only begotten son (Jesus), who died on the cross for our sins.
Satan is seeking always to make that seem a lie (when in truth of fact, it is the highest truth there ever was).
God is trying to make His children Israel see His true character, and that He has already come down to Earth, and walked among men, centuries ago, and gave His life a ransom for many.
Satan is seeking to make His children hate his One and only name, Jesus, so that he may disallow that historical fact.
God is trying to use the Church, His holy body, to bring restoration to Israel, and help them to see the Light (the one and only true light, Jesus).
Satan is seeking to create division between the Church and Israel, and worse, is sowing discord among the brethren, so that they hate one another, instead of love another (which is what God intended).
God is trying to show His people the true path of righteousness (which is NOT goody-goody-two-shoes), which leads to eternal life.
Satan is trying to make it appear to be all a lie (some of which effects are being seen in this forum).
Wrong on many accounts.
You are not a "free thinker". You are in bondage to sin, and that is what reigns in your thoughts.
Read the Scripture I quoted above again...

Psalms 53:1-6 (the whole chapter)
The very fact that you say there is no God, puts you exactly in the same place as the fellow mentioned in verse 1 of Psalms 53...
I am not saying I am righteous and holy...far from it.
The Bible has declared ALL under sin, and NONE righteous (no, not one...).
Romans 3:10
Romans 3:23
So, with the realization that we are all sinners, should come repentance (which just means "to perceive afterwards" or change your mind), and acceptance of the fact that we are all in need of a Savior.
Here is a useful Scripture for you...

1 Corinthians 11:1-34 (the whole chapter)

Its why we "brake bread"...
To show the Lord's death until He comes (i.e. in the second coming), and that He gave his life for US!
And to receive forgiveness of sins.
Baptism is also for that purpose (though its really only necessary once in the name of Jesus).
Acts 2:38
Anyone "can" do anything they want. They have the power to make moral decisions, and *decide* to do either good or evil.
The question is, which one will you choose...
I believe there is to be truth to be found in all "religions" (or "faiths", if you prefer). However, everyone must believe in Jesus Christ, and accept Him as Lord and Savior. And read His word...

Just take a look at the figures you posted...
Christianity has the most amount of followers, in the billions (most everything else is in the millions).
Why do you think that is...?
Could it be because Christians actually believe in One god (not two, not three...not 10,000), and who is the only true and LIVING God?
Is what I just posted, based on His holy word, not falling in any (and all) of these categories?
Funny...
You sound like Thomas in the Scriptures:
John 20:24-31
I fear by the time He comes, it may very well be too late to accept Him then...
Just read the story of Noah...
I'm sure there were a lot of people who thought they would have enough time to get into the ark...after the rains started, but no, that proved to be a vain assumption (and a dangerous one). And the door was shut to all those who did not enter the ark BEFORE the rains started. And all those who were not in the ark perished.
Gen 7:1-24
Only next time, the Earth will be destroyed by fire, not a flood (though there may be a flood BEFORE the fire to partly submerge the Earth).

1 Corinithians 3:14
2 Peter 3:10

Cheers!

Net Jockey

AN ATHEIST IN THE WOODS

An atheist was walking through the woods.
'What majestic trees!
'What powerful rivers!
'What beautiful animals!
He said to himself.


As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.


He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards him.


He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him..


He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer.


He tripped & fell on the ground.


He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him.


At that instant the Atheist cried out,
'Oh my God!'

Time Stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.


As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky.

'You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident.'
'Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament?

Am I to count you as a believer?

The atheist looked directly into the light, 'It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian'?


'Very well,' said the voice.


The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:

'Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.'

Laptopcharacter

I believe it was written by man, but God is who lead those men to write it. It is His original word, passed on by the Holy Spirit to those men, who had the faith to believe it came from God.
Though man is imperfect, the Holy Spirit is perfect, and the men that wrote it had the Holy Spirit in them, which caused them to write it, though they themselves (in their flesh) were imperfect. By taking on the Holy Spirit's perfection, they were able to write His word down without misrepresenting what He said.
The Bible is the only book that is complete. The rest of the books out there are not, because the men who wrote them most likely were not being lead by the Holy Spirit the entiretime (not saying that they might not have been led by the Holy Spirit part of the time) they wrote it. God only needs One book to store His word in, and it has been proven that it is the true fulfillment of everything in mathematics, and what man has attempted to do with numbers. It makes a perfect mathematical equation, something nothing else in the world can.
Believe me. I am not trying to change ANYONE. Yet, this was brought to my attention when I was browsing the forums here, and the Lord put it on my heart to declare His Scriptures. How could I let all the "God does not exist" type of talk go unchecked?
And all this talk of "close mindedness"... Does that same rule not also apply to you as well, if you hold the same attitude to everyone else on the planet?
Are you not just as much "close minded" (in thinking everyone else is "close minded"), and so much so, that you ignore the truth being presented to you? Shame on you if you have read His word, and did not believe it. There is a Scripture in there that says...
1 Peter 2:21
So greater condemnation is to he that hath not read the Scriptures, then he who after he hath read it turneth from them.
How about this theory...
What if we are are ALL wrong in some way?



And we all are. There is no one that has it exactly right on this planet...hence why we need a Savior.

Laptopcharacter

I tell you what ALL men need....some FAITH!!!
That is what is going to get mankind out of this mess, not anything else.
But, not just faith toward anything...
But faith toward God, and trust that He will do what He said he would, and this is what will save our asses out of the fire (the eternal fire), and allow our souls (not flesh) to be saved from eternal damnation in the fiery pit of hell, where the devil and his wicked angels will rot.