Tiber Septim

Since you didn't respond to my previous post, let me ask this.

According to the Bible, God has only two limitations.
1) God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)
2) God cannot change. (I think Numbers 23:19)

Now we ask the question 'is God is powerful enough to create a rock that He is not powerful enough to pick up?'
Take a look at the definitions here. We have an irresistible force (God) and an immovable object (the rock).

1) An irresistible force is a force which no object can resist.
2) An immovable object is an object which no force can move.

By their very definitions the two contradict each other, they cannot exist in the same universe at the same time.
The only way to contradict one's self is to either lie or to change one's mind. Since God cannot do either, He cannot contradict himself. This means He cannot simultaneously produce an immovable object and a force which can move it. Therefore, He is not omnipotent.

Another argument is that of free will. If God is omniscient he knows all that is, was or ever will be, right? Okay, try this. Right this second - exert your free will. Do anything that you don't think God could have possibly known you were going to do.
Can you surprise God?

If you can, he is not omniscient.
If you cannot, how can you think you have free will? You cannot do anything that God does not already know you are going to do.

Going back to my previous post, the whole idea of it is an unthinkable proposition.

Laptopcharacter

Actually I did right before you posted...
Check out the last post.

Tiber Septim

Yes, we must have been posting at the same, thank you.

Indoril Nerevar

Hi Jake,

I was actually trying to show you just how ridiculous your comments sound. However, that obviously did not work, because you actually believed what I posted! I was also trying to show you how offensive your comments can be, and that you should watch what you say, but obviously that did not work either. I will be more direct: consider your comments before you post, and make sure that others will not take offence. TSF is accepting of all beliefs, and your posts should reflect that respect. I and others have shown you the respect you deserve - you should return the favour.


As I said above, you have shown everyone here that you cannot actually have a sensible discussion about your beliefs. You claim that you would be willing to change your beliefs if someone presented you with proof, yet everytime someone posts along these lines, you reply with more quotes from your Bible, more unfounded claims. You obviously are not open-minded and willing to change.

Thus, this discussion has no further relevance until one of two things happens:
1) You open your mind to other possibilities and stop using unfounded claims as your arguments.
2) Someone else joins the discussion and presents a logical argument that can be backed up.

Laptopcharacter

Just so neither of us gets anything wrong, here is those two scriptures you mentioned, just in case there's anyone out there that refuses to look in the Word themselves.

Numbers 23:19
Titus 1:2
You're right. They cannot, and do not. God is not stupid. Though He has the power, I believe, to create such an object that he can not move, do you really think He would?
No, everything God has created (including Satan) is subject to His power.
Your whole argument rests on the assumption that He would create such an object (which He wouldn't). Since he did and will not, He is omnipotent.
Answer: No.
God knew everything before the world even began, and He saw all of us, and what we were going to do while we are in this life. So, even actions you have not yet taken, He knows you will do, before you do them.
You are mistaking what "free will" means. It is not that He does or does not (though He does) have the power to know what we are going to do before we do it that defines or contradicts "free will". Rather, what makes "free will" free will is the power to do what we *want* (not what He does not already know). So, looking at it from that perspective, you can easily see that all three are true:

God is omnipresent.
God is omniscient.
We have "free will".
That assumption is based on not understanding what "free will" actually is, and confusion of free will with God knowing or not knowing what we are going to do.
So, it is actually quite the opposite of "an unthinkable proposition".

Laptopcharacter

Hi again Indoril.
Please believe me when I say I did not mean any insult to anyone here. Yet, the truth is the truth, and sometimes its hard to say it without offending somebody (namely, those that do not accept the truth).
Actually, this whole thread has been *exactly* that. A sensible discussion. Where have you been? I have only presented facts, and was perfectly willing for others to contradict what I said I believed (and do believe), because that is how one's faith builds. I have not told anyone here to shut up, have I? No, I have been perfectly willing to here what others' beliefs may be, and to see if anyone believes what I believe.
Actually, I am very open-minded, and if anyone actually posted proof that directly contradicts what I believe, don't you think I would change? Of course I would, because I would see that I am wrong about that particular matter!
In my defense, no one else in this thread has posted anything else but "unfounded claims" (whatever that means), if that's you like to call it, either.
How can you say what anyone else said in this thread has been "founded claims"?

Indoril Nerevar

Did you even read the links I gave you about Evolution or the Big Bang? No, you just shot them down as "the work of Satan". And there is my proof.

Laptopcharacter

You're right. I did not read them...yet.
The reason is, I have not had the time. Been busy working, and all that.
But, heck, its not like I have not ever heard of "evolution".
I will be sure to read them, though, so I can *prove* that it both contradicts God's word, and also is illogical as well. There are certainly faults to be found in anything that Satan creates...
Only God is perfect.

Indoril Nerevar

Not exactly what I'd call an open-minded approach...

Laptopcharacter

Well, at least you got me to say I would read them!
I am as open-minded as I know how to be, at least. Yet, having faith toward God means you will be very cautious about what man says, because men are liars, while only God is truth (and yes, I can not "prove" that God is truth; that is where the faith is!).
But you see, there have been many occurrences that have been unexplainable by science (you can probably google "supernatural occurrences" to find a ton) that can only be answered if there is a God (and there is). Believe me, this a topic that I am sure has raged across human history for centuries, and men have held doggedly to "needing to see proof". Well, everyone will have that proof one day. And it will be when Jesus returns to the earth, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and who obey not the gospel.
Then, that will be undisputable fact, and proof.

Only trouble is, no reward if you believe after it happens...

Laptopcharacter

And rightly so, because it is the truth, not a lie.
That is, at least if you were referring to what the Bible says (and I'm sure you are)...

Tiber Septim

Disregard the fact of whether he would or not. The argument is whether he can.
So, if God knows everything before it happens, does that not mean that everything is predetermined? Say, when God created existence, did he know that I was going to eat toast for breakfast this morning? If he did, my life is predetermined and I have no free will. If he didn't, he is not omniscient.
I suggest having a look at the definition of predetermined.
1. To determine, decide, or establish in advance: "These factors predetermine to a large extent the outcome" Jessica Mitford.

So, if God already knows what we are going to do before we do it, as you have admitted is true in your posts above. Then that means our existence is predetermined.
A predetermined fate contradicts free will. If the outcome of our life is already determined or choices have no impact.
No choice, no free will.

Laptopcharacter

Well, no, the fact that he will not is a very important factor to consider in this discussion. No fun if we just believe He can...
And along those lines, let me ask you something? Have you seen anything lately that looks like it can not be moved by even God, who is the creator of all things, and has created them centuries ago? Of course, the answer to that question can only be truly answered by someone who believes in God...
Otherwise, the non-believers' whole argument is going to be that there never was a God, and so the question is irrelevant.
The answer to that question is yes, yes He did...
He knew both what you were going to eat for breakfast this morning, and also what you were going to think before you even thought it.
How does that make you feel?
And who is "Jessica Mitford", that I should believe her definition of "predetermined"?
And, anyway, that word does not really fit the context of the current discussion. What I believe concerning that is God has not "established" (or planned in advanced; there may be a better word to use) our life, though He *knows* what we will do before we do them. (Anyone feel free to correct me on this one, because I am not completely sure about what I am about to say is going to be the God-spoken truth or not) Rather, though our life is already known by God, from beginning to end, we have the power to make moral (or immoral) decisions, and determine our end. Otherwise, if our lives were set up (by God) beforehand, that makes this scripture of no effect:

Philippians 2:12
If our life was "cut out" beforehand, in the sense that we can't help making the choices we make, because they have been "established" (the word I really mean is "cut out" or "set up") by God, then there would be no need to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling", because everything would have been "pre-ordained" (or *planned* by God to happen-not sure if I used the right word) by God. However, He still knows the choices we are going to make before we make them, and that is why He is God, and omnipresent, and omniscient.
Therefore, based on the logic above, man will have no way to (rightfully) blame God for how his life went, or how it ended, because man is the one that determines his own fate.
Read what I said above your quote.

Indoril Nerevar

I really think you need to go back and rethink your position on that one. Your own post is full of self-contradictions.

You say that God knows what we will do before we do it. Yet you also say we have a choice. You can only have one, not both. If God knows what we will do, then we have no choice. If we have a choice, then we can choose to do the opposite of what God thought we would do.

Laptopcharacter

Wrong. How does the fact that God *knows* what we are going to do before we do it contradict the power to make choices?
Yes, we have a choice, and we can choose to do the opposite of what God *wants* (not *thought we would do*) us to do.
Don't confuse "knows we will do" with "wants us to do".

Indoril Nerevar

How does one even argue against an idea that in itself does not make sense?

From dictionary.com:
If God knows what we will do, then our actions are predetermined. You cannot debate that. That is fact.

Given that our actions are predetermined, we have no free will. We cannot change events which are predetermined. Yet the Bible (as you yourself pointed out) claims that we can chose our actions - we can "work out our own salvation".

As you can see, your whole belief is built on a contradiction!

Laptopcharacter

Easy there...
Your whole logic is based on the presupposition that "to apprehend clearly and with certainty" means that the word "certainty" in that sentence is equated with definition 2 or 3 of what you quoted. But one thing you may not have learned yet is English is a very strange language. As you can see, the word "certain" in English thought, has many meanings, not just one (as do a lot of words in English).
Therefore, there is no way for you to prove that the "certainty" being used in that sentence was meant in the context of definition 2. What if I meant definition 1 of what you quoted:

1. free from doubt or reservation

And that is exactly what I meant when I used the word "know"!

Isn't English awesome!

EDIT: Ok, you had me going there for a minute...
Forgot what I was saying when I said "know"!

No, when God "knows" something, it means that those things are certain to come to pass, but where we are in the picture is, we don't know! And what God sees (i.e. "knows in advance") is the choices we are going to make, before we make them. Therefore we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

That is what meant when I used the word "know", and frankly I don't care if it fits the definition of the word "know" in your quote or not...its probably defined differently elsewhere anyway.

Dictionary.com is not God, and therefore in order for the words it defines there, to be truth, and to be the true definition, it must mirror what God says the words mean.

Indoril Nerevar

This is one of those times where you would want to think about what you're saying before you say it - otherwise I might take this to mean that you think my education is incomplete or lacking in quality. I might take it to mean that you think I do not have the same intelligence you have...

Actually, you can take any one of those definitions you like (that would be why I included them all - you see, I actually think about what I'm writing). Free from doubt or reservation still works perfectly for my point. Stay with me here:

- God is free from doubt or reservation about what actions you will take.
- We all have free will to choose our own actions.
- Therefore, there are two possibilities:
- - One, that we always do as God thinks we will, and our actions are predetermined, and God's lack of doubt is justified.
- - Two, that we sometimes choose to do something other than what God thinks we will, and God's lack of doubt is not justified, and thus God is not omniscient.

Isn't logic wonderful?!

Indoril Nerevar

Just read your edit. I'm just wondering... if you were wrong about that one thing, what else might you have been wrong about??? Hmmm...

Remember - man lies....

Laptopcharacter

Knew you were going to jump on that one real quick...
See my last edit. I forgot momentarily what I had used the word "know" in relation to.
But, your logic is still faulty...
No, here you are still equating what God "thinks" (actually, *knows*) we will do as what it means to make choices. How can those be seen as the same?
No, what God *knows* we will do, is how we are going to choose to live our life, and what kind of choices we are going to make.
Frankly, I don't care if you call that "predetermined" or not, because what God *knows* we will do before we do them is the *choices we make* (not Him). Careful in suggesting those two things are the same...