Laptopcharacter

Actually, it was not so much a question, as it was a statement to him to prove God does not exist (which is impossible).
Well, all I can say is I will pray tonight that God reveal Himself to you then, so you can be sure He exists, since you require "proof"...
I have already provided ample proof in this thread of God's existence, but if people refuse to believe it anyway, then what needs to happen to that person is a Saul of Tarsus experience, where you are met with a bright light, and asked
"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"
And then your response should be:
"Who art thou, Lord".
"I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
And then, trembling, ask God for forgiveness, and ask Him what it is He would have you to do.

Some people, I guess, will only believe if they have that type of experience with God. For me, though, all I have to do to believe is to read His word.

I will say a prayer now for you...

And that, my friend, is what you truly need, so you can pass from this life into life eternal, and not destruction.
I have looked at that link, and must ask how does it contradict what I said faith meant? That is exactly what it is...its belief not based on proof, or things visible to the natural senses. Since I have faith, I do not need to have the Lord to *speak* (audibly) to me personally (though I certainly wouldn't be opposed to such an occurrance, and I think it would help my faith/belief in Him even more), and confirm me of His existence before I believe. I only have to read His word, and I can see instantly that no man could write (without God's Holy Spirit) the words that are contained in it; and have the faith to believe that there is a God (only one), who loves us so much that he sent his only begotten Son to die for us, and to give his life a ransom for many. I'm sorry that you can not see that yourself...
Yes, God loves us (truly loves us), and in return, we should love him back, and obey His commandments. We are His creation, after all, aren't we..?

Cheers.

Indoril Nerevar

No, we aren't.

I have not seen anything in this thread that I would call "proof" of God's existence. I have seen you post a lot of quotes from the Bible. I have seen you say that God is real and the Bible is his word, etc. I have not seen anything that proves his existence. You started down the right track with this:

While these are logical questions (a good step), they are very easy to answer, simply by reading up on Evolution and the Big Bang.

Now, to clarify, before you start down that path: I do not believe that the Big Bang fully explains the creation of the universe. However, I believe it is a step in the right direction. It does not answer all the questions, and it cannot, because we do not yet understand enough about the universe and the laws of physics which make up its foundation. We are progressing though, and progressing very quickly. And as more and more is discovered about the universe, more and more makes sense.

You're quite correct - it is currently beyond our power to absolutely disprove the existence of God. However, it is also well beyond our power to prove the existence of God. Given that, I have looked at the evidence available to me, and chosen the path I believe makes more sense - that is, the path of science. Science can explain to me things I do not initially understand, whereas religion would have me stop asking questions, and simply "have faith".

Regarding your prayer for me: I thank you for the apparent concern you show, but I would ask that you never do that again, whether in text or in speech, or even in thought. I found that to be a very offensive gesture, though I'm sure you did not mean it that way.

Regarding faith,
You contradict yourself like so:
As for the "Saul of Tarsus experience"... that alone would not be enough to convince me of God's existence. For one, I would ask different questions from those Saul asked. For two, there are such things as "dreams", "hallucinations", etc. The "evidence" given to me during and after the experience would also have to prove that the experience was real. However, it would definitely be interesting, and I would investigate further if that happened to me.

Laptopcharacter

Well, I think the other guy's post in this thread about the atheist and the bear is sufficient to answer that...
I just wonder where you have been, soaking up all this heresy.
May it be well with you in pursuing that path of humanism...
The purpose of "faith" is to lead you to God to answer those questions! It is not possible for another human to answer all these sorts of questions that comes to the mind of man. One must seek after God (Jesus), and ask Him to reveal the answers to us.
Very well. I did you a favor, but you did not appreciate it, and want me to stop doing favors for you. Ok, I can accept that. Its not my soul (I hope) that's heading towards the fire...
Please, when you quote, quote the whole thing. I did not just say "It is NOT the absence of fact that defines faith," in my earlier post. I also said "rather it is the absence of being able to SEE the fact, and yet believing anyway". Please make sure to quote the whole thing, as it is very important to future readers of this thread.
You are ignoring the rest of the sentence.
WOW!! I was not even aware there can be such stupidity as was demonstrated by you right now....
Maybe it will take an earthquake, heart attack, and a VERY loud voice (from GOD), all at the same time, to convince you that He LIVES!

Regards,

Jake

Indoril Nerevar

And here I was, thinking we were having a nice, polite discussion. Man, I guess I was wrong!


My apologies about the cut quote. You're right, I should've quoted the whole thing, and explained further.
I left off the bolded section because I read it as being a biased statement - you were stating that your views are fact, and faith is believing that. However, after reading it again, I see the other way it could be interpreted: you are admitting that you cannot see the fact, and so are believing what the Bible tells you, despite the possibility that it is wrong.

If you cannot see the fact, you cannot be sure that it is fact.

No, earthquakes and heart attacks happen all the time. To have both at the same time would be a coincidence, nothing more. Besides, if God spoke to me while I was having a heart attack, I don't think I'd really be in a position to chat with him, do you? Regardless of that, as I said, there are such things as dreams and hallucinations, and I would need to be sure I wasn't having either.

Laptopcharacter

Ok, now I apologize. I guess I could have explained it better...
No, I was stating that what God says is fact. In fact ( ), the only real true fact comes from God, and not from man, because men are liars, and only God is truth.
The faith is when you read (or hear) something that you do not "know" (based on human "logic") for certain is true, but believe because God does not lie.
The very fact that it contradicts our nature (because we can not "figure it out"), and tells us something is wrong, is what points out the fact that we need a Savior, because we do not know everything, and can't possibly understand how it all works. Follow me so far? That is where we have to trust and depend on Him, because there is no human "logic" that can possibly explain why we were created in the first place. All answers were meant to come from Him, NOT man. Man is supposed to get all his information (or at least, a very large part of it) from God, and not man, because God does not lie, while man does.
Well, no, what God says is fact, is fact (it just means something that is true, not false), regardless of whether you understand (or "see") it or not. No doubt all this stuff will be explained to us in the next life, and then it will make perfect logical sense. The reason why we can not "see" (or "know") "for sure" (though actually we can, because God does not lie) the things which were delivered from God unto man, to actually come to pass, is because we do not have the same perspective (right now) that God has. God is complete, and can see everything. Man cannot, hence why he needs to depend on God.
Well, that I just gave as an example...
If you need something harder than that for you to believe, I pray that God delivers it to you, and convinces you before you die (and pray, that if you are convinced when this happens to you, you will be given a few more years on this planet, at least).

Indoril Nerevar

Once again, your post is full of statements about fact, with no actual fact in them. You telling me that God is real does not make him real. You telling me that God does not lie does not make that true.

Also, you are totally ignoring something part of my argument.
I do not believe that we were created at all. I believe in evolution, which states that we evolved over millions of years, through many different stages (starting with microscopic bacteria). I do not need a "Saviour", because I do understand. At least, I understand enough for it to make sense, which brings me back to another point you seem to have missed:
As time goes on, we are learning more and more about the universe, all by ourselves, without the help of "God".

Laptopcharacter

That is a very true statement. Me telling you that God is real does not make Him real.
But, the fact is He is real, whether any of us believes it or not.
Trust me...you will find out one day (though probably not in this life).
In fact, He has existed AGES before man was created, and time does not exist for Him. God (Jesus) lives in a timeless realm, where there is no concept of time (though God created time for humanity).
God was, is, and forever will be. There is NOTHING you (or anybody else) can say that changes that. True, I can not "prove" that He exists. But He exists, regardless. That is why it is very necessary for humans to have faith, or else he gets all screwed-up (as you have).
Well, that belief comes from the devil, Satan (though I know you're not going to believe this). Satan made up this thing called "evolution" (which never did exist, btw) for the express reason of convincing gullible people (like you) that God does not exist (when in truth, of fact, He does, and the devil knows so). It is him trying to undo all of what God has done, and basically doing his best to fight against God (though he will be defeated in the end, though, and cast into the lake of fire, where he will rot for "all" eternity).
Oh ho ho ho...you need one far more than you realize, and you certainly do NOT understand (much of anything that is true).
A perverted kind of "sense"....and one brought by the devil.
Well, have fun doing that...
Let me know how it goes for you, say about a month from now...

Good "luck" fighting against God, for you WILL lose (I guarantee it).

Regards,

Jake

Indoril Nerevar

Hi Jake,

Thankyou for proving to me that religious people cannot have a sensible discussion about their beliefs. Once again, you have sunk to the level of insults (albeit meaningless, religion-based insults). Given that you cannot discuss this politely, logically and sensibly (using more than unfounded claims), I am going to leave this thread now, and let others waste their time with you.

Laptopcharacter

Hello Indoril.

Actually, I started this discussion with you in a very polite manner, and will end it the same way as well. Sorry for what you took to mean as "insults", when in fact, it is probably the highest truth ever told to you. I am not speaking this from an "exalted" status, or looking down on you by any means (though I do fear for your soul). Probably, if I did not receive the grace that I did from God, I would be in the same messed-up condition you are in, and someone would probably have to speak the same words to me. I don't say that as an insult either...but facts are facts, and rightly so.

Hope there are no hard feelings between us (I know there are none on my end; I meant it in the best manner possible by humans).

Bye Indoril.

Regards,

Jake

Tiber Septim

I believe I would be classified as a 'Theological Noncognitivist'.

I beleive this:
Now look at this Which, according to religion is pretty much true. Yet the idea is incoherent and unverifiable.

yustr

Jake - god spoke to me last night. I had my "Saul moment". No heart attack. No earthquake. No unexplainable phenomenon (that's subsequently easily explained.)

Here's what I heard: He said you were wrong.


I trust that you have now disavowed your beliefs? The above proof should be all you need. After all you cannot prove that he didn't speak to me can you?

k2skier

Blind faith=Delusional

There are many discrepancies between the Old and New Testament. By taking the Bible literally word for word you must believe the world is flat and the sun revolves around the Earth.

One cannot prove God exists, and one cannot prove God doesn't exist. But when one tries very hard to prove there is a God (and THEIR right God, not one of the many other God's of humans history), they only become more and more delusional sounding when confronted with facts and science, (and not the made up back wards Christian science).

Again, everyone should be able to believe what they want, just keep church and state separate like our Constitution says.

Laptopcharacter

A lie is hardly proof at all...
Find me some real proof.

Laptopcharacter

Show me where that is in the Bible...
Nowhere in the Bible does it say the earth is flat, or that the sun revolves around the Earth. Please stop spreading your lies concerning something you know nothing about.
And prove that.
You're listening to the wrong voice, for sure...
I have never said in this thread, that everyone can not believe what they want. Of course they can, because everyone has free will, and has the ability to either serve God or sin. It seems you have picked the latter...
Just common sense should help you pick the right side, namely God's side, since He is Lord of all things, and created even you (yes, YOU).

yustr

Exactly...

40sondacurb

the greatest lie ever told is more popularly known as the truth.

Indoril Nerevar

I will pray for you that Satan will show Himself to you, and prove to you that He is the one true God, and the so-called "God" you worship is actually the Devil in disguise. I pray that he will show you the real Truth, and upon learning this Truth, you will repent your sins, and denounce your false "God", and turn to the one true God, Satan.

Laptopcharacter

You know...your statement was completely ridiculous, and I'll show you why.
The whole argument was whether God existed or not (which of course He does), and you say God speaking to you that I was wrong is proof that He does not exist???
If He spoke to you at all, it would number one prove God's existence (which is exactly what you were trying to disprove!), because He spoke to you, and number two, He would not tell you He did not exist (which is implied by saying He said I was wrong).
That is why your complete logic is totally screwed-up, and you can't manage to prove *anything* to help your case, at all.
God exists. That is a fact. I don't care what man says to try to dispute it.
Exactly what?
That comment certainly does not prove He doesn't exist, either.

Good "luck" trying to prove it.

Laptopcharacter

Hi again, Indoril...
Long time, no see.
Yes, go ahead, and pray to your father, Satan, and see if he answers your prayers. Satan is the enemy of God, and that is who is ruling you right now. Moreover, Satan's angels are outnumbered two to one by God's holy angels. And that is why he (and all those that follow him) will lose.

Have fun fighting against God, that is all I will say right now...

Laptopcharacter

Hi Tiber.
Just wanted to point out that that last statement in your quote is messed-up. It is true that God is an omnipresent being that exists outside of space and time (at least, in one sense; though He lives in our hearts if we believe in him), but it is not true that He hates sinners. The very fact that He came down, and died on the cross for our sins, proves that He has the greatest love possible for sinners. Though He of course desires us to repent, and begin to live in His righteousness.

But, it is definitely wrong to say that He hates sinners.

I believe that is the devil again, trying to twist everything around...

God is truth, and His word is truth. Satan is lies, and his word is lies. So it follows that Satan would try to make backwards everything God has done, and said.