God! This one ought to be good. - Page 2

csc2000e · 05-14-2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chode

Actually, when you quote your faith's scripture to prove your scripture is correct, you are definitely closed minded. I doubt you could find a better example than laptop's long string of Biblical quotations. Perhaps a better test of a faith's validity might be what it says to move non-believers. I'm thinking in more spiritual terms than "Kill the heretics!" here.

That's silly. It is completely proper to think that if your view is true, opposing views must be mistaken. How could it be different? For example, if it is true that all religions lead to God, then it is false that only one religion leads to God. It is nonsense to affirm both that there are many ways to God and that there is only one way to God.
By calling someone "close-minded", you are attacking their character, not their view-point.
As for your comment on a faiths ability to "move non-believers":
What better example than Christianity! People who have genuinely believed in Jesus Christ have had their lives transformed! One example that comes to mind is Saul of Tarsus. Now Saul, was a Jewish zealot. And he hated Christians. "This was shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven." Saul was an awful man. He was having them thrown in prison left and right. But something happened to him on his way to Demascus. He was delivering warrants to have more Christians arrested, but he never reached his destination. Something happened to him on the way. And what happened changed his life forever. Jesus appeared to Saul. And Saul saw that he was persecuting the children of God! Later, he became known as the Apostle Paul. Who loved fellow believers more than most people love themselves. He was afflicted throughout his life, but it didn't matter, because he knew the truth.
Another example is Jesus' disciples. After Jesus was arrested, they all fled. Peter even denied that he even knew Jesus three times. These were cowardly men. But after three days Jesus was resurrected, and suddenly they became bold to preach the Gospel. Most of them were killed for that belief.

yustr · 05-14-2009, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Though man is imperfect, the Holy Spirit is perfect, and the men that wrote it had the Holy Spirit in them, which caused them to write it, though they themselves (in their flesh) were imperfect. By taking on the Holy Spirit's perfection, they were able to write His word down without misrepresenting what He said.

So is the Bible perfect? Of course not. Internal contradictions and factual errors preclude that conclusion. If the Bible is not perfect and your god, did in fact dictate it, one of two conclusions can be reached: 1) your god is not perfect or 2) those writing his words did it imperfectly. A third option exists that the translations over time have corrupted it but that is the same as number 2. Either way it pulls the rug from under the only support you or anyone else has ever offered for your faith – god said it (John 14:6).

I ask you this simple question: why would your god leave this most fundamental of questions to misinterpretation? Surely, your god knew there would be errors in the words. Surely, your god knew men would misuse the words. Surely, your god knew some would not hear the words. However, knowing all this, your god chose not to make his desires clear and unequivocal. Is your god not omnipotent? Is your god not omnificent? Perhaps your god is just lazy?

The usual response I get is that he’s testing your faith. Nope – can’t be because (according to you) he already knows my answer. Why test something he already knows the answer to? Maybe he’s trying to get me to rethink my (lack of) faith? But now we’re back to the original question and around the circle we go once more.

By my questioning if god exists, I conclude that he cannot.

csc2000e · 05-14-2009, 07:55 AM

Yustr, you base your argument on the pre-supposition that the Bible contradicts itself, but you have given no evidence to support that.

**Drew1369** · 05-14-2009, 08:44 AM

Eye for an eye, but forgiveness is divine... the old and new testaments contradict themselves.

Hold faith that God exists, but do not base your sole belief on a collection of papers humans wrote.

God does not test... for that is the essence of free will...

God has no plan because if God had a plan that would replace the notion that we have free will.

God is God.

Laptopcharacter · 05-14-2009, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew1369

Eye for an eye, but forgiveness is divine... the old and new testaments contradict themselves.

Hold faith that God exists, but do not base your sole belief on a collection of papers humans wrote.

God does not test... for that is the essence of free will...

God has no plan because if God had a plan that would replace the notion that we have free will.

God is God.

They do? In which way? Give an example.

I bet you can't...
The truth is God's Holy Scripture is perfectly in sync with each other, and does NOT contradict anything else He says in His word.
If we "see" a contradiction in there, it means our view is faulty, and we need to dig in the Scriptures more, because God does not contradict himself.
And concerning the "Eye for eye" thing, read Matthew 5:38...

Quote:

38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matt 5:38-39 (KJV)

That is part of the NEW covenant, which Jesus preached while He was on the earth, not the OLD covenant, which was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ.

Galatians 3:24

Quote:

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:24 (KJV)

The Law was given so we could recognize sin, and realize that we are all guilty of it at times, and in need of a Savior.

Romans 7:7-25

Quote:

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 7:7-25 (KJV)

But it was never given to measure our righteousness by.

You have very faulty reasoning....

>>God does not test...for that is the essence of free will...

WHO said? Did you make it up? Yes, we all have free will, and can do what we want, but what the hell does that have to do with God testing us to see if we be in the faith?

>>God has no plan because if God had a plan that would replace the notion that we have free will.

Wrong. God DOES have a plan, and it has NOTHING to do with our free will. God's will is going to get done, regardless of whether we do it or not, because He has the power to raise up stones to praise Him.

But we are blessed if we walk in His will, instead of ours.

yustr · 05-14-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csc2000e

Yustr, you base your argument on the pre-supposition that the Bible contradicts itself, but you have given no evidence to support that.

You'd think, of all things they would get this right...

Quote:

The Resurrection of Jesus
Who went to the tomb?
Matt - 2 Marys
Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
Luke - at least 5 women
John - Mary Magdalene
What was seen?
Matt - Earthquake with angel sitting outside on the recently-moved stone
Mark - Stone already moved and a young man sitting inside
Luke - Stone already moved with two men standing inside
John - Stone moved. No one seen on 1st visit, but two angels sitting inside after two earlier visits.
When did the woman/women leave to go to the tomb?
Matt - Towards dawn
Mark - Very early
Luke - At early dawn
John - Still dark (NB. John states it was still dark when Mary arrived at the tomb).
What did man/men/angel/angels say?
Matt - Jesus was risen and disciples to go to Galilee
Mark - As Matt
Luke - Jesus had risen
John - Asks why Mary is crying.
What do the women/woman do next?
Matt - They run away but meet Jesus who repeats angel's instruction
Mark - They flee and say nothing to anyone. This obviously contradicts the other three in which the women do go and tell the disciples (original Mark ended at 16:7)
Luke - They go and tell disciples
John - Mary meets Jesus and they talk.
What is first conversation with the risen Jesus?
Matt - Women on way from tomb
Luke - The two disciples on road to Emmaus
John - Mary Magdalene.
What was the time between the resurrection and the ascension?
Matt - At least the time to reach Galilee
Luke - Clearly one day only (see 24:13,33,36,50 - it is made very clear that Jesus rose, made all his appearances and ascended back to heaven on the same day)
John - At least a week accepting John 20 as the original end to the Gospel, but with the John 21 appendix the period was even longer as this has a Galilean appearance
Acts - 40 days.

An attempt to reconcile John's visit of just Mary Magdalene whilst still dark with the Synoptics where there are several women and it is daytime, is by saying John's was an earlier one, i.e. the one in the Synoptics was a second one. However this cannot be so as John has Mary Magdalene seeing the empty tomb (20:1) and in the Synoptics when the women go to the tomb they ask about who would roll the stone away (Mark 16:3). Mary Magdalene was with them (Mark 16:1) and if she had already been to the tomb, she would have seen the stone moved away and the question would be irrelevant.
Furthermore, Luke makes any appearance at, or journey to Galilee absolutely impossible as it has everything happening in the area of Jerusalem with the disciples being told to stay there until Pentecost, and the conclusion being Jesus' ascension from nearby Bethany. This is made clear - in Luke the first appearance is to the two travelling to Emmaus (10 miles West of Jerusalem) and 24:13 states this was "that very day"; the two then go "that same hour" to the eleven in Jerusalem (24:33); Jesus then appears whilst they are still explaning what they had seen (24:36). Jesus then tells them to stay in Jerusalem until Pentecost (24:49).
As Luke 24:51 has the ascension on the same day as the resurrection this prevents any Galilean appearances by Jesus to the eleven as in Matt and John.
Luke's account makes nonsense of Matt having Jesus tell the women to instruct the disciples to go up to Galilee (Matt 28:10) if he was going to see them himself later that day (as in Luke and John), and furthermore see them in Jerusalem. Also, Luke makes it clear that the eleven were told to stay in Jerusalem from the day of the resurrection to Pentecost, but Matt has them travelling up to Galilee (28:16) as does John (21:1ff). Important to note is Mark 16:7, ie. that the women 'said nothing to anyone' - all three Gospels contradict this by saying that they told the disciples.
Luke also has Jesus appearing to "the eleven" on the same day as the resurrection (24:33-36), but John states Thomas was missing on this appearance and it was a week later that Jesus appeared to all eleven - with Thomas then being present (20:24,26).

Note: 1 Cor 15:3-8 lists the resurrection appearances and contradicts the above.

From HERE

Laptopcharacter · 05-14-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

You'd think, of all things they would get this right...

The Resurrection of Jesus
Who went to the tomb?
Matt - 2 Marys
Mark - 2 Marys and Salome
Luke - at least 5 women
John - Mary Magdalene

Matthew 28:1

Quote:

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Matt 28:1 (KJV)

Right on the first one...
Mark 16:1-2

Quote:

1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mark 16:1-2 (KJV)

Right on the second one...
Luke 24:1

Quote:

1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. 3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: 5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
Luke 24:1-10 (KJV)

And then finally...
John 20:1-18

Quote:

1 <G1161> The first <G3391> day of the week <G4521> cometh <G2064> Mary <G3137> Magdalene <G3094> early <G4404>, when it was <G5607> yet <G2089> dark <G4653>, unto <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>, and <G2532> seeth <G991> the stone <G3037> taken away <G142> from <G1537> the sepulchre <G3419>. 2 Then <G3767> she runneth <G5143>, and <G2532> cometh <G2064> to <G4314> Simon <G4613> Peter <G4074>, and <G2532> to <G4314> the other <G243> disciple <G3101>, whom <G3739> Jesus <G2424> loved <G5368>, and <G2532> saith <G3004> unto them <G846>, They have taken away <G142> the Lord <G2962> out of <G1537> the sepulchre <G3419>, and <G2532> we know <G1492> not <G3756> where <G4226> they have laid <G5087> him <G846>. 3 Peter <G4074> therefore <G3767> went forth <G1831>, and <G2532> that other <G243> disciple <G3101>, and <G2532> came <G2064> to <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>. 4 So <G1161> they ran <G5143> both <G1417> together <G3674>: and <G2532> the other <G243> disciple <G3101> did outrun <G4390> <G5032> Peter <G4074>, and <G2532> came <G2064> first <G4413> to <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>. 5 And <G2532> he stooping down <G3879>, and looking in, saw <G991> the linen clothes <G3608> lying <G2749>; yet <G3305> went he <G1525> <G0> not <G3756> in <G1525>. 6 Then <G3767> cometh <G2064> Simon <G4613> Peter <G4074> following <G190> him <G846>, and <G2532> went <G1525> into <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>, and <G2532> seeth <G2334> the linen clothes <G3608> lie <G2749>, 7 And <G2532> the napkin <G4676>, that was <G2258> about <G1909> his head <G2776>, not <G3756> lying <G2749> with <G3326> the linen clothes <G3608>, but <G235> wrapped together <G1794> in <G1519> a place <G5117> by itself <G1520> <G5565>. 8 Then <G5119> <G3767> went in <G1525> also <G2532> that other <G243> disciple <G3101>, which <G3588> came <G2064> first <G4413> to <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>, and <G2532> he saw <G1492>, and <G2532> believed <G4100>. 9 For <G1063> as yet <G3764> <G0> they knew <G1492> not <G3764> the scripture <G1124>, that <G3754> he must <G1163> rise again <G450> from <G1537> the dead <G3498>. 10 Then <G3767> the disciples <G3101> went away <G565> again <G3825> unto <G4314> their own home <G1438>.

The risen Christ appears to Mary Magdalene
11 But <G1161> Mary <G3137> stood <G2476> without <G1854> at <G4314> the sepulchre <G3419> weeping <G2799>: and <G3767> as <G5613> she wept <G2799>, she stooped down <G3879>, and looked into <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>, 12 And <G2532> seeth <G2334> two <G1417> angels <G32> in <G1722> white <G3022> sitting <G2516>, the one <G1520> at <G4314> the head <G2776>, and <G2532> the other <G1520> at <G4314> the feet <G4228>, where <G3699> the body <G4983> of Jesus <G2424> had lain <G2749>. 13 And <G2532> they <G1565> say <G3004> unto her <G846>, Woman <G1135>, why <G5101> weepest thou <G2799>? She saith <G3004> unto them <G846>, Because <G3754> they have taken away <G142> my <G3450> Lord <G2962>, and <G2532> I know <G1492> not <G3756> where <G4226> they have laid <G5087> him <G846>. 14 And <G2532> when she had <G2036> <G0> thus <G5023> said <G2036>, she turned <G4762> herself <G1519> back <G3694>, and <G2532> saw <G2334> Jesus <G2424> standing <G2476>, and <G2532> knew <G1492> not <G3756> that <G3754> it was <G2076> Jesus <G2424>. 15 Jesus <G2424> saith <G3004> unto her <G846>, Woman <G1135>, why <G5101> weepest thou <G2799>? whom <G5101> seekest thou <G2212>? She <G1565>, supposing <G1380> <G3754> him to be <G2076> the gardener <G2780>, saith <G3004> unto him <G846>, Sir <G2962>, if <G1487> thou <G4771> have borne <G941> <G0> him <G846> hence <G941>, tell <G2036> me <G3427> where <G4226> thou hast laid <G5087> him <G846>, and I <G2504> will take <G142> <G0> him <G846> away <G142>. 16 Jesus <G2424> saith <G3004> unto her <G846>, Mary <G3137>. She <G1565> turned <G4762> herself, and saith <G3004> unto him <G846>, Rabboni <G4462>; which <G3739> is to say <G3004>, Master <G1320>. 17 Jesus <G2424> saith <G3004> unto her <G846>, Touch <G680> me <G3450> not <G3361>; for <G1063> I am <G305> <G0> not yet <G3768> ascended <G305> to <G4314> my <G3450> Father <G3962>: but <G1161> go <G4198> to <G4314> my <G3450> brethren <G80>, and <G2532> say <G2036> unto them <G846>, I ascend <G305> unto <G4314> my <G3450> Father <G3962>, and <G2532> your <G5216> Father <G3962>; and <G2532> to my <G3450> God <G2316>, and <G2532> your <G5216> God <G2316>. 18 Mary <G3137> Magdalene <G3094> came <G2064> and told <G518> the disciples <G3101> that <G3754> she had seen <G3708> the Lord <G2962>, and <G2532> that he had spoken <G2036> these things <G5023> unto her <G846>.
John 20:1-18 (KJV)

right on the last one. So I must say you were right on all...

Well done.
BUT how exactly do those different accounts (each given from the different-but not conflicting-perspectives of the people who took the time to write them down) disagree, or contradict one another?

Matthew said two Marys came to the tomb, Mark said two Marys and Salome when the sabbath was past brought sweet spices that they might anoint Jesus's body, and very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun, Luke said "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.", and then says a few verses later that those women were Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them (which could include the Salome mentioned by Matthew), and then finally John said

Quote:

The first <G3391> day of the week <G4521> cometh <G2064> Mary <G3137> Magdalene <G3094> early <G4404>, when it was <G5607> yet <G2089> dark <G4653>, unto <G1519> the sepulchre <G3419>, and <G2532> seeth <G991> the stone <G3037> taken away <G142> from <G1537> the sepulchre <G3419>.

(Notice, in John's account, he says Mary Magdalene came while it was yet dark)
But what makes you think they came all at the same time (and together)? What if Mary Magdalene came while it was dark, and then came again with the other women later at the rising of the sun?
Also, bear in mind that none of the accounts say that the women (or woman-singular, as in John's account) who were named were the only ones that came, nor does it really say that the whole thing was one event, and they all came together at the same time...

They could have come at different times!
God desires us to search His word, and find the answers, which are often not plainly apparent or visible, to questions like these. God desires a diligent heart, and one that is seeking after the Lord, to know Him better, and understand all the good He has done for humankind. Sending His son to die on the cross FOR US is not your everyday occurance, you know!

As previously stated, just because a particular person may find something in the Scriptures that he thinks contradicts something else in the Scriptures, I can guarantee that that is not the case, and if the person were to search harder, and trust that God does NOT lie, nor contradict any part of His word, he would find the answer, which is often hiding just beneath the surface.

Quote:

From HERE

Skeptically dot org slash new testament, eh...?
:shakes head: *thumbsdown*

**Drew1369** · 05-14-2009, 04:31 PM

Quote:

If we "see" a contradiction in there, it means our view is faulty

EXACTLY!!!

Humans are faulty, after being written and re-written, copied into different languages, how can you be absolutely, positively sure that it is true to what God wanted?

I want your answer... not that from a collection of books

Laptopcharacter · 05-14-2009, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew1369

EXACTLY!!!

Humans are faulty, after being written and re-written, copied into different languages, how can you be absolutely, positively sure that it is true to what God wanted?

I want your answer... not that from a collection of books

Good question.

Well...that is where the little thing called "faith" (which you're fond of saying religion killed) comes in.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Though we will probably never see (at least not in this life) everything the way it truly is, due to our own imperfection, does it make what God says any less true?
Let me ask you a simple question...
If God were to speak to you (yes, YOU) right now in an audible voice, just like any human you know would (only LOUDER), but when NO one else is around that could possibly be the one speaking, would you believe then what he said? Of course you would!
Yet, according to the Scriptures, blesses is he who believes without seeing (or, as in this case, hearing) Him, that Jesus is truly alive, was crucified, and was risen in newness of life the third day.
When you truly have faith, it doesn't matter what man says to naysay (though they naysay to their own destruction) what God put down in His Holy Word, because you have faith in God, NOT man.

But some people require proof...

Its sad really. All that talk about "religion killed faith" (implying that you have some without religion) from you, yet you don't even have enough faith to believe after seeing (and reading) plainly God's Word.

Some people demand signs, but here is what God said about that...
Luke 12:54-56

Quote:

54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is. 55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. 56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luke 12:54-56 (KJV)

John 4:48

Quote:

48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
John 4:48 (KJV)

You want signs! There will be plenty when Jesus returns to the Earth, to put all enemies under His feet, and reign over men.
Luke 21:11

Quote:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luke 21:11 (KJV)

Luke 21:25-28

Quote:

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV)

Yea, there are signs all around you even now, and yet you are too blind to see them.

Its like Peter says...

2 Peter 3:3-7

Quote:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:3-7 (KJV)

Why is it that men seek after signs?

You desire faith by men, yet you exhibit none yourself.

**Drew1369** · 05-15-2009, 12:03 AM

I hold true faith in God... I just do not hold true faith in Man.

The Bible I believe holds the spirit of what God wanted... however I do not think, that in its many incarnations that one bible is higher then another.

Which translation of the Bible do you currently have? King James, New King James, New American Standard, New International, New World Translation, or the Douay-Rheims Bible?

Do you study them all?

They are all english versions...

Do you hold one higher then another?

Now I have looked upon all of your scripture quoting and see KJV or King James Version... so I assume you hold that one higher then all other english translations. Why is that one better then the rest?

You hold faith in mans ability to not corrupt the word of God... that is admirable to say the least. I cannot hold that much faith... perhaps I have seen many of mans folly in my young life... could have tainted my view.

Laptopcharacter · 05-15-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew1369

I hold true faith in God... I just do not hold true faith in Man.

Well, I hope indeed (for your own sake) that that is the truth..
I am not judging you. God has that power, not me.
But if you have true faith in God, you would hold faith in the Bible more than any other book, because it is the Gospel, and has the power to turn men from darkness unto light, and from Satan to God.

Quote:

The Bible I believe holds the spirit of what God wanted... however I do not think, that in its many incarnations that one bible is higher then another.

Which translation of the Bible do you currently have? King James, New King James, New American Standard, New International, New World Translation, or the Douay-Rheims Bible?

I am not going to get drawn into that discussion, because it really has nothing to do with the current topic of this thread. Sufficient to say though I think the KJV translation is probably the most accurate, simply because it was written in a time where all this "new-age", humanism, type of bull$hit was not around (at least not in full force, like it is today). One needs to dig into the Hebrew and Greek roots however to truly understand the meaning of the Scriptures, since the Bible was not originally written in English.

Quote:

You hold faith in mans ability to not corrupt the word of God... that is admirable to say the least. I cannot hold that much faith... perhaps I have seen many of mans folly in my young life... could have tainted my view.

No, not in man's ability, but rather in God's ability to keep the people who were good enough to write down what He said, from making too many mistakes.

Sure, there are some Hebrew (and/or Greek) words I think may have been mis-translated into English, but is this an excuse to not seek after God? No, rather it is even more the reason why we should seek after God, so we can make sure we are interpreting His word correctly.

k2skier · 05-15-2009, 09:56 AM

LTC, what you have is called blind faith. You are taking the Bible literally word for word, and that my friend will lose a debate most of the time, too many skewed facts and mis-truths (things that we know today from science that explain a lot of what man didn't know 2,000-4,000 years ago) Quoting Scripture really means nothing, didn't you once believe in Santa Clause also, and when you were 7, you would argue to the death that Santa was real, because someone told he was...

How do you explain the discrepancies between the Old and New testament?

Are you aware, at the current trend, that Islam will outnumber Christianity in 15-25 years; will that make Islam the "right" religion and make Christianity the "wrong" religion? Islam and Christianity parallel each other quite a bit.

Believe what you want, just keep religion out of politics and all is good. I hold no faith (participation) in any religion at all, maybe a karma kind of thing, more like the Native Americans values.

I have no idea if my opinions are the "true correct" opinions of what might have sparked complex life, we may likely never know for sure what sparked complex life. Live your life while your alive, do not live your life for when you die, that is what I believe in.

yustr · 05-15-2009, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laptopcharacter

...
No, not in man's ability, but rather in God's ability to keep the people who were good enough to write down what He said, from making too many mistakes.

Sure, there are some Hebrew (and/or Greek) words I think may have been mis-translated into English, but is this an excuse to not seek after God? No, rather it is even more the reason why we should seek after God, so we can make sure we are interpreting His word correctly.

These two bolded statements go to the heart of my question. Why does your god need to have his words written down? Could he not just have placed them in everyone's thoughts without going through the middle man? Why does your god leave his word open to the imperfect interpretation of mortals? Couldn't he make them absolutely understandable to all regardless of intellegence, language, education?

In both cases your god chose not to do this. Why do you think that is?. (I do not want another series of Bible quotes. You've proven you can cut and paste. I want to learn your beliefs and the rational behind them.)

Laptopcharacter · 05-15-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by k2skier

LTC, what you have is called blind faith. You are taking the Bible literally word for word,

You're right!

I am.

Quote:

and that my friend will lose a debate most of the time,

This is not about winning or losing a debate at all. It comes down basically to common sense. Are you going to reject what God said? It seems you already did...

Quote:

too many skewed facts and mis-truths (things that we know today from science that explain a lot of what man didn't know 2,000-4,000 years ago)

HA!

That's funny. Actually, it is quite the opposite. The Bible explains the real true truth, which science has tried to explain, but failed. All that garbage about evolution, earth being billions of years old, etc. was just all made up by man. That, my friend, is the real mis-truth, NOT what God said. But you're too deceived for anyone to penetrate that hard wall of stone that keeps you in such an unrepentant state, that you question even God's existence. Be careful...
God knows how to crack even granite.

Quote:

Quoting Scripture really means nothing, didn't you once believe in Santa Clause also, and when you were 7, you would argue to the death that Santa was real, because someone told he was...

Wrong again...on many accounts. Quoting Scripture instead of quoting one's own (or another human's) words is really only what can change a person. Because, every person has the capacity to realize that what is being spoken to him/her is the truth...regardless of whether him/her actually accepts it.
And, actually, I never believed in Santa Clause, because I was not raised in a family that believed in that junk. All that phony crap is really the works of Satan, and God hates it.

Quote:

How do you explain the discrepancies between the Old and New testament?

I have already explained it, and in truth of fact, there are no "discrepancies" between the Old and the New testament. Rather, what transpired in the Old testament (which is actually true, historical fact, not fiction) is how things were before Jesus came, and died for our sins. Back then, if you disobeyed God, you were stoned to death, no questions asked. Aren't you thankful that we now have a new covenant, where we can be forgiven after doing something wrong, because Jesus died for it?

Quote:

Are you aware, at the current trend, that Islam will outnumber Christianity in 15-25 years; will that make Islam the "right" religion and make Christianity the "wrong" religion? Islam and Christianity parallel each other quite a bit.

That's nonsense. This world will probably not even be around for 15-25 more years. We are approaching (quite quickly, I might add) the end times, and when Jesus returns to the earth, in flaming fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and who obey not the Gospel. And anyway, it is the highest priviledge to die for what we believe, to take up our cross. If Islam takes over the world, it will only be for a short time, and I certainly have no fear of that happening. Heck, this life was never anything but a living hell anyway (though I think there is a far worse hell on the other side of this life), so frankly I don't really have any fear of death. Especially, if it means we will be granted eternal life on the other side of it.

Quote:

Believe what you want, just keep religion out of politics and all is good. I hold no faith (participation) in any religion at all, maybe a karma kind of thing, more like the Native Americans values.

Actually, true religion doesn't really have anything to do, at all, with politics (a whole bunch of liars and hypocrites anyway). You are certainly free to do what you want...just take great care that it doesn't lead you straight to hell. And I direct the same thing at myself. I should always bear in mind determination to fight this war (and overcome) to the very end of this life, so that I pass into eternal life, not eternal damnation.

Quote:

I have no idea if my opinions are the "true correct" opinions of what might have sparked complex life, we may likely never know for sure what sparked complex life. Live your life while your alive, do not live your life for when you die, that is what I believe in.

Well, I have only one thing to say in response to that...
Have fun.

Laptopcharacter · 05-15-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

These two bolded statements go to the heart of my question. Why does your god need to have his words written down? Could he not just have placed them in everyone's thoughts without going through the middle man? Why does your god leave his word open to the imperfect interpretation of mortals? Couldn't he make them absolutely understandable to all regardless of intellegence, language, education?

A question that is better directed at God...not me.
You want to know the answer to that question, ask God.
But, in my own opinion, at least, the reason He had His words written down, instead of placing them in everyone's thoughts, is because He desires men to seek Him and His righteousness. Each person has the capability for either spiritual growth or decline, and has the power to make moral (or immoral) decisions. No fun if we were all made like robots, to blindly serve Him.

Sure, God has the power to make everyone just "magically' see Him, and believe in Him, if He wanted to. But, no, that is not what God intended, and He desires rather a heart that seeks diligently after Him, out of their own free will.

Quote:

In both cases your god chose not to do this. Why do you think that is?. (I do not want another series of Bible quotes. You've proven you can cut and paste. I want to learn your beliefs and the rational behind them.)

Well, you just heard them. The question is, did they have any effect on you?
Or are you still stuck in your ways, and determined to make everyone else not believe in God, like you.

yustr · 05-15-2009, 09:48 PM

To ask a question of god presupposes I believe that there is one. I do not. I'd just as soon direct the question to a jellyfish.

Because he desires men to seek him he'll withhold enlightenment from those who do not? Some god you follow.

Am I determined to make you believe like I do? That's futile. You have faith. By its very definition someone with faith holds beliefs in the absence of facts and sustains them when presented with facts contrary to those beliefs. So a fundamental difference between us is I would willingly change if you presented proof of god's existence. However, would you change your belief if I proved he doesn't? Didn't think so. So which of us has the closed mind?

Laptopcharacter · 05-15-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

To ask a question of god presupposes I believe that there is one. I do not. I'd just as soon direct the question to a jellyfish.

Well, happy jellyfishing then.

Quote:

Because he desires men to seek him he'll withhold enlightenment from those who do not? Some god you follow.

Am I determined to make you believe like I do? That's futile. You have faith. By its very definition someone with faith holds beliefs in the absence of facts and sustains them when presented with facts contrary to those beliefs. So a fundamental difference between us is I would willingly change if you presented proof of god's existence. However, would you change your belief if I proved he doesn't? Didn't think so. So which of us has the closed mind?

A good response to that question is...
Ok, try to prove it.

Try to prove He doesn't exist. I bet you can't.
As for which of us has the closed mind, that is an easy question to answer too...YOU do. You're the one that's resisting the truth, not me.

BTW, you have a misunderstanding of what faith is, too...
It is NOT the absence of fact that defines faith, rather it is the absence of being able to SEE the fact, and yet believing anyway. That is what faith is. Have you given any *facts* contrary to what I believe? No, you haven't. You have given only *opinions*, while I have presented *facts*...namely, what He says in His word. Your logic is definitely all messed-up. But, anyway...

Cheerios, mate.

Indoril Nerevar · 05-15-2009, 10:54 PM

Hi Laptopcharacter,

You did not answer yustr's question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

I would willingly change if you presented proof of god's existence. However, would you change your belief if I proved he doesn't?

I would like to know your answer to that question.

Laptopcharacter · 05-15-2009, 11:16 PM

Hi Indoril.
I have already answered yustr's question which was "However, would you change your belief if I proved he doesn't?"...
I said the following:

Quote:

Ok, try to prove it. Try to prove He doesn't exist. I bet you can't.

If you want to know if I would change my belief if he actually *proved* God does not exist, then sure, of course I would.

But, I know he wont be able to, because God does indeed exist, and is nigh to us, even in our hearts, if we believe in Him.
God is not a fairy tale, as some would say. Rather, He is the creator of both heaven and earth, and even us!

What do you believe? If you were to give an answer as to how earth formed, or heaven formed, what would be your answer? What do you think created man in the first place, and then allowed them to reproduce after their own kind? Doesn't it seem reasonable (and logical) that there had to be a first man, and a first woman? Who do you think created them? Or do you think they just "magically" appeared on Earth?

As you can see, it is very foolish to not believe in God.

Indoril Nerevar · 05-15-2009, 11:38 PM

Hi LTC,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laptopcharacter

If you want to know if I would change my belief if he actually proved God does not exist, then sure, of course I would.

Thankyou - that is an actual answer. You can't answer a question by asking another.

I have gathered some links for you to read:

Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Quote:

Atheism is the position that deities do not exist, or the rejection of theism. In the broadest sense, it is the absence of belief in the existence of deities.

Agnosticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Quote:

Agnosticism can be subdivided into several subcategories. Recently suggested variations include:
Strong agnosticism (also called "hard," "closed," "strict," or "absolute agnosticism")
—the view that the question of the existence or nonexistence of a deity or deities and the nature of ultimate reality is unknowable by reason of our natural inability to verify any experience with anything but another subjective experience. A strong agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you."
Weak agnosticism (also called "soft," "open," "empirical," or "temporal agnosticism")
—the view that the existence or nonexistence of any deities is currently unknown but is not necessarily unknowable, therefore one will withhold judgment until/if any evidence is available. A weak agnostic would say, "I don't know whether any deities exist or not, but maybe one day when there is more evidence we can find something out."
Apathetic agnosticism (also called Pragmatic agnosticism)
—the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of any deity, but since any deity that may exist appears unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic.
Agnostic atheism
—the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, and do not believe in any.
Agnostic theism (also called "religious" or "spiritual agnosticism")
—the view of those who do not claim to know of the existence of any deity, but still believe in such an existence. Søren Kierkegaard believed that knowledge of any deity is impossible, and because of that people who want to be theists must believe: "If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe."
Ignosticism
—the view that a coherent definition of a deity must be put forward before the question of the existence of a deity can be meaningfully discussed. If the chosen definition isn't coherent, the ignostic holds the noncognitivist view that the existence of a deity is meaningless or empirically untestable. A.J. Ayer, Theodore Drange, and other philosophers see both atheism and agnosticism as incompatible with ignosticism on the grounds that atheism and agnosticism accept "a deity exists" as a meaningful proposition which can be argued for or against. An ignostic cannot even say whether he/she is a theist or a nontheist until a better definition of theism is put forth.

I am an Atheist, but I would classify myself as a combination of "Weak Agnosticism", "Apathetic Agnosticism" and "Agnostic Atheism". I currently believe there is no God. If someone were to provide me with convincing evidence that God does exist, I would be willing to change my beliefs. However, I also believe that if such a being as a God does exist, he/she/it would have absolutely no interest in what we do.

Regarding your comment on faith:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laptopcharacter

BTW, you have a misunderstanding of what faith is, too...
It is NOT the absence of fact that defines faith, rather it is the absence of being able to SEE the fact, and yet believing anyway.

I direct you to any dictionary you can find. Such as:

Faith
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

Quote:

2. belief that is not based on proof.

Just for fun (though it has a fair point):

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20070706

05-14-2009, 07:55 AM	#23 (permalink)
csc2000e Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 340 OS: Vista Home Premium SP1 My System	Re: God! This one ought to be good. Yustr, you base your argument on the pre-supposition that the Bible contradicts itself, but you have given no evidence to support that. __________________ These walls fall down around me but I will stand And though my body be burned away I will live

05-14-2009, 08:44 AM	#24 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,425 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: God! This one ought to be good. Eye for an eye, but forgiveness is divine... the old and new testaments contradict themselves. Hold faith that God exists, but do not base your sole belief on a collection of papers humans wrote. God does not test... for that is the essence of free will... God has no plan because if God had a plan that would replace the notion that we have free will. God is God. __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

05-15-2009, 12:03 AM	#30 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,425 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: God! This one ought to be good. I hold true faith in God... I just do not hold true faith in Man. The Bible I believe holds the spirit of what God wanted... however I do not think, that in its many incarnations that one bible is higher then another. Which translation of the Bible do you currently have? King James, New King James, New American Standard, New International, New World Translation, or the Douay-Rheims Bible? Do you study them all? They are all english versions... Do you hold one higher then another? Now I have looked upon all of your scripture quoting and see KJV or King James Version... so I assume you hold that one higher then all other english translations. Why is that one better then the rest? You hold faith in mans ability to not corrupt the word of God... that is admirable to say the least. I cannot hold that much faith... perhaps I have seen many of mans folly in my young life... could have tainted my view. __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

05-15-2009, 09:56 AM	#32 (permalink)
k2skier Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 313 OS: XP Home-SP3 My System	Re: God! This one ought to be good. LTC, what you have is called blind faith. You are taking the Bible literally word for word, and that my friend will lose a debate most of the time, too many skewed facts and mis-truths (things that we know today from science that explain a lot of what man didn't know 2,000-4,000 years ago) Quoting Scripture really means nothing, didn't you once believe in Santa Clause also, and when you were 7, you would argue to the death that Santa was real, because someone told he was... How do you explain the discrepancies between the Old and New testament? Are you aware, at the current trend, that Islam will outnumber Christianity in 15-25 years; will that make Islam the "right" religion and make Christianity the "wrong" religion? Islam and Christianity parallel each other quite a bit. Believe what you want, just keep religion out of politics and all is good. I hold no faith (participation) in any religion at all, maybe a karma kind of thing, more like the Native Americans values. I have no idea if my opinions are the "true correct" opinions of what might have sparked complex life, we may likely never know for sure what sparked complex life. Live your life while your alive, do not live your life for when you die, that is what I believe in.

05-15-2009, 09:48 PM	#36 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,040 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: God! This one ought to be good. To ask a question of god presupposes I believe that there is one. I do not. I'd just as soon direct the question to a jellyfish. Because he desires men to seek him he'll withhold enlightenment from those who do not? Some god you follow. Am I determined to make you believe like I do? That's futile. You have faith. By its very definition someone with faith holds beliefs in the absence of facts and sustains them when presented with facts contrary to those beliefs. So a fundamental difference between us is I would willingly change if you presented proof of god's existence. However, would you change your belief if I proved he doesn't? Didn't think so. So which of us has the closed mind? __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.