Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms

**Jason** · 03-13-2009, 02:45 PM

A North Carolina judge has ordered three children to attend public schools this fall because the homeschooling their mother has provided over the last four years needs to be "challenged."

The children, however, have tested above their grade levels – by as much as two years.

The decision is raising eyebrows among homeschooling families, and one friend of the mother has launched a website to publicize the issue.

The ruling was made by Judge Ned Mangum of Wake County, who was handling a divorce proceeding for Thomas and Venessa Mills.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91397

**Drew1369** · 03-13-2009, 06:16 PM

but but but... the government knows best... their education system is impeccable...

RedScott · 03-13-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

The children, however, have tested above their grade levels – by as much as two years.

Which is irrelevant to the State because the point of public schooling is not education, but indoctrination and institutionalization.

**sobeit** · 03-14-2009, 04:55 AM

they could be saying that the mother is pushing the kids too hard because of their high testing scores...

csc2000e · 03-14-2009, 03:31 PM

Some of the brightest kids I know are home schooled. I agree with RedScott. The public school system does indoctrinate kids. Students are at the mercy of the ideology of the teacher.

**Canaanabolaanan** · 03-14-2009, 08:13 PM

Home schooling should certainly be allowed. Imposing public schooling on someone is a violation of their free will. If the parents are capable of providing education to their kids, it's obnoxious for the courts to rule in such a manner.

yustr · 03-15-2009, 06:05 AM

Try to read past the headlines. This is a divorce case. The mom is home schooling them. (Doing a good job too - agreed by everyone.) But the dad wants them to experience public schools (his reasons don't matter.) So the real question here is not about the judge ordering a kid into public schools for state indoctrination - its about divorced fathers having a say in the raising of their kids.

Think people, think.

lolarobot · 03-15-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

A North Carolina judge has ordered three children to attend public schools this fall because the homeschooling their mother has provided over the last four years needs to be "challenged."

The children, however, have tested above their grade levels – by as much as two years.

The decision is raising eyebrows among homeschooling families, and one friend of the mother has launched a website to publicize the issue.

The ruling was made by Judge Ned Mangum of Wake County, who was handling a divorce proceeding for Thomas and Venessa Mills.

http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91397

Well, I might not be popular on this thread, but hey, I have to tell the truth. First, I am for the most part, very opposed to home schooling for a variety of reasons. How can one person, typically the mother, have the same knowledge as a person degreed in science, English, mathematics, etc. etc.? There is no way. Additionally, I understand that many of these mothers are not even high school graduates themselves, so how are they qualified to teach? I would prefer that my child go to a good independent school system, not only to be exposed to the wonderful socialization, sports, all of the functions, all of the teachers who went to school for years upon years to receive master degrees in their specific field, etc. That experience is invaluable. Sitting at home with mommy and a few books seems awfully restrictive, so I think it should be disallowed.... UNLESS the mother or teacher can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt they are qualified. Many kids who are home schooled end up with a 7th grade education in the 12th grade, so I guess it all depends. The very thought of me sitting at home for 12 years with my mom seems like prison. Nothing can compare to being in a classroom with lively discussions, fun tests, great teachers, sports, dances, the variety, etc. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

yustr · 03-15-2009, 05:15 PM

Off topic but I'll address lola's comment: Based on our experience in TN some years ago...the state required that the home school parent (teacher) have a HS degree up to the kid's 8th grade - unless it was a church related home school! Then a college degree was required - unless it was a church related home school! (We can discuss the church/state aspect in another thread.)

Home schooling can be very effective. It can make practically any event a learning experience, which is a good thing. On the other hand it can be very one dimensional. We have friends who home schooled their 4 daughters all of whom have gone on to get university degrees. They're exceptional at graphic arts and such but none of them can do a lick of math. But they are well adjusted young ladies who we are proud to call friends. Not the social misfits many make home schoolers out to be.

But back on topic; home schooling is not the issue here. The question is: does the dad have a say in how mom raises the kids in a divorced family?

lolarobot · 03-15-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

Off topic but I'll address lola's comment: Based on our experience in TN some years ago...the state required that the home school parent (teacher) have a HS degree up to the kid's 8th grade - unless it was a church related home school! Then a college degree was required - unless it was a church related home school! (We can discuss the church/state aspect in another thread.)

Home schooling can be very effective. It can make practically any event a learning experience, which is a good thing. On the other hand it can be very one dimensional. We have friends who home schooled their 4 daughters all of whom have gone on to get university degrees. They're exceptional at graphic arts and such but none of them can do a lick of math. But they are well adjusted young ladies who we are proud to call friends. Not the social misfits many make home schoolers out to be.

But back on topic; home schooling is not the issue here. The question is: does the dad have a say in how mom raises the kids in a divorced family?

Of course the father should have a say. What do you think?

**Canaanabolaanan** · 03-15-2009, 06:14 PM

I guess I glanced too quickly through this thread. The divorce idea should have been more obvious to me. And I think a public education would be a better experience for a child, as you point out, Lola. But homeschooling children have to take standardized tests. So if they pass these tests that equate them with the performance of publicly schooled children, then the parent should have the option to teach them if they want. Some don't want public schooling because of the alleged liberal bias, or lack of Christian teachings. So if parents can teach their children the same information, essentially without this filter, it should be their prerogative, provided they can match the education. It's not an education I'd want, but it is the right of the parents to choose it.

But with this case, I do agree that it's a divorce matter.

lolarobot · 03-15-2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canaanabolaanan

I guess I glanced too quickly through this thread. The divorce idea should have been more obvious to me. And I think a public education would be a better experience for a child, as you point out, Lola. But homeschooling children have to take standardized tests. So if they pass these tests that equate them with the performance of publicly schooled children, then the parent should have the option to teach them if they want. Some don't want public schooling because of the alleged liberal bias, or lack of Christian teachings. So if parents can teach their children the same information, essentially without this filter, it should be their prerogative, provided they can match the education. It's not an education I'd want, but it is the right of the parents to choose it.

But with this case, I do agree that it's a divorce matter.

Well, I guess, but it just does settle well with me on a socialization level. Plus, I think it is horrible to indoctrinate kids under 11 with religious teachings.

RedScott · 03-15-2009, 06:43 PM

Home schooling is exponentially better at developing a child's social skills than public school. Public school specifically teaches children bad social skills. Actually I can't think a worse place for kids to learn how to interact than in a public school setting.

lolarobot · 03-15-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedScott

Home schooling is exponentially better at developing a child's social skills than public school. Public school specifically teaches children bad social skills. Actually I can't think a worse place for kids to learn how to interact than in a public school setting.

I disagree wholeheartedly and I can't think of a worse place to be than home with an uneducated mom and no friends. My experience in high school was fun... great teachers, sports, plays, dances, friends, etc. etc. Each teacher was so skilled in their area/subject and it was such a good experience. The though of sitting at home with my Mom would be depressing and horrific... this is why very, very few people do the homeschooling thing as it is just not accepted and the teachers are just not skilled. I think most kids want to "go" to school, period, not sit at home. Just my opinion.

RedScott · 03-15-2009, 08:16 PM

lol, why would a home schooled child necessarily have no friends and an uneducated mother? Couldn't a public school child just as likely have little or no friends? And, actually, we home school our children and *gasp* they are involved in sports, plays, dances, etc. etc.

In my house we have a controlled environment in which children are closely monitored by adults for behavioral and social missteps. Acting out negatively toward other children is met with adult correction and encouragement. They also see the example set forth by the other adults in the house in a mature relationship. They see other adults interacting with other adults. They see these interactions and learn what correct social behavior is. After all, it is said that children catch more than they're taught.

Now let's look at the public school example. Kids are piled into cell block style, forced confinement classrooms at a ratio of 30 rude, screaming, selfish, socially underdeveloped morons to every 1 relationally mature adult. Their examples to learn from are other emotionally and socially immature kids. They rarely see interactions between mature adults, or even more mature students as we've long since abolished the notion of mixing age groups. Their own interactions are largely unsupervised. They learn not from proper adult correction and encouragement, but from the ridicule and often unjust incitement from their peers. After all, most of us (who went through the 12 year indoctrination program) weren't congratulated by our friends for being nice to "different" people. We were egged on to marginalize them through jeers and laughing.

Of course for every anecdotal account of the home school kid who just didn't quite fit in with the other kids (the tragedy!), I can post ten factual news articles about public school kids partaking in such socially acceptable and developed behaviors as date rape, assault, gang activity, or even mass murder *at* those very government holding tanks they were forced against their will to attend.

As for arguments about limiting a child's learning capacity because of their mother's own lack of knowledge, I would agree that if you are just transferring knowledge from your head to the child's head than yes, it would be limited. But our goal for homeschooling, and a significant reason for not sending them to school, is to teach our children to learn and think for themselves. If a person becomes dependent on someone else teaching them for knowledge, they stop learning when they leave school.

lolarobot · 03-15-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedScott

lol, why would a home schooled child necessarily have no friends and an uneducated mother? Couldn't a public school child just as likely have little or no friends? And, actually, we home school our children and *gasp* they are involved in sports, plays, dances, etc. etc.

In my house we have a controlled environment in which children are closely monitored by adults for behavioral and social missteps. Acting out negatively toward other children is met with adult correction and encouragement. They also see the example set forth by the other adults in the house in a mature relationship. They see other adults interacting with other adults. They see these interactions and learn what correct social behavior is. After all, it is said that children catch more than they're taught.

Now let's look at the public school example. Kids are piled into cell block style, forced confinement classrooms at a ratio of 30 rude, screaming, selfish, socially underdeveloped morons to every 1 relationally mature adult. Their examples to learn from are other emotionally and socially immature kids. They rarely see interactions between mature adults, or even more mature students as we've long since abolished the notion of mixing age groups. Their own interactions are largely unsupervised. They learn not from proper adult correction and encouragement, but from the ridicule and often unjust incitement from their peers. After all, most of us (who went through the 12 year indoctrination program) weren't congratulated by our friends for being nice to "different" people. We were egged on to marginalize them through jeers and laughing.

Of course for every anecdotal account of the home school kid who just didn't quite fit in with the other kids (the tragedy!), I can post ten factual news articles about public school kids partaking in such socially acceptable and developed behaviors as date rape, assault, gang activity, or even mass murder *at* those very government holding tanks they were forced against their will to attend.

As for arguments about limiting a child's learning capacity because of their mother's own lack of knowledge, I would agree that if you are just transferring knowledge from your head to the child's head than yes, it would be limited. But our goal for homeschooling, and a significant reason for not sending them to school, is to teach our children to learn and think for themselves. If a person becomes dependent on someone else teaching them for knowledge, they stop learning when they leave school.

Might work for you, but overall most people don't do this as it is just not acceptable and the teachers are not qualified and the result is an inept child who malfunctions in the world. Cell block? What are you talking about.... some Compton school? With as many bad examples you have of public/private schools, I can come up with as many bad examples of home schooling. Just not for me and I would never subject any child to such a life. Plus, these home-schooled kids have about 5 friends; just not good. Scary in fact, but good luck to you.

**Chode** · 03-15-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolarobot

Of course the father should have a say. What do you think?

I think that's a custody issue. A father who doesn't have custody of his children has no more right to say how they should be educated than he does to tell the mother where she can live, where she can work, etc. Possibly, if these things were important to him, he shouldn't have committed adultery. Or at least not been caught.

Also, I don't think there's much if any evidence to suggest that home schooled kids are any more likely to be withdrawn little freaks with no social skills than other kids. My daughters have home schooled friends that are as well adjusted as any kids I know. Sure some are likely to get bad educations or develop social problems, but I see a bunch more of this in public schools.

The majority of parents who home school choose to purchase very structured programs, and they have a lot of support available from the publishers and other parents. It's also a mis-perception to think that the majority of home schoolers are either members of religious fringe groups or drooling, inbred rednecks.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-16-2009, 05:04 PM

Sorry Yustr to talk on homeschooling rather than divorce rights but...

Red, what do you do when your children ask you a question that is beyond your understanding? Sometimes we can't teach ourselves all we need to know. Sometimes we need to be taught.
And through the teaching comes inspiration in a subject. So I think I would rather be taught by someone who loved their subject.

As for social interaction; what steps do you need to take so that a child gets a childhood? What steps do you have to take to get a child used to going into the world on their own?
If a child is always cared for by parents, and taught by parents, how does that not just build an undue dependency upon parents?

**Chode** · 03-16-2009, 06:21 PM

Well, EP, most homeschoolers I know recognize the importance of social activities for the kids. That's how my daughters know some of these kids. Things like city and county athletic programs, 4H, church, etc.

Answering the tough questions is why most parents use the available course materials and the support network. What!, you never had a teacher that encountered difficulty making a concept clear?

Yeah, I know I'm not Yustr. No doubt he'll have his own response.

yustr · 03-16-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chode

Yeah, I know I'm not Yustr. No doubt he'll have his own response.

Two men say they're yustr - one of them must be wrong...

Quote:

I go down to speaker's corner I'm thunderstruck
They got free speech, tourists, police in trucks
Two men say they're jesus one of them must be wrong
There's a protest singer singing a protest song - he says
they wanna have a war to keep us on our knees
They wanna have a war to keep their factories
They wanna have a war to stop us buying japanese
They wanna have a war to stop industrial disease
They're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind
They wanna sap your energy incarcerate your mind
They give you rule brittania, gassy beer, page three
Two weeks in espana and sunday striptease
Meanwhile the first jesus says I'd cure it soon
Abolish monday mornings and friday afternoons
The other one's on a hunger strike he's dying by degrees
How come jesus gets industrial disease
Mark Knofler

Actually kind of appropriate for these Alex Jones threads...

03-13-2009, 02:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jason Faugh a ballagh Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Pasco, FL Posts: 8,482 OS: Windows Vista My System Blog Entries: 2	Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms A North Carolina judge has ordered three children to attend public schools this fall because the homeschooling their mother has provided over the last four years needs to be "challenged." The children, however, have tested above their grade levels – by as much as two years. The decision is raising eyebrows among homeschooling families, and one friend of the mother has launched a website to publicize the issue. The ruling was made by Judge Ned Mangum of Wake County, who was handling a divorce proceeding for Thomas and Venessa Mills. http://wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91397 __________________ Posting Tips \| Advice for New People \| Common Fixes \| Agus na damnaithe fágtha gan focal Glaoigh ormsa i measc na naomh

03-13-2009, 06:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,440 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms but but but... the government knows best... their education system is impeccable... __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

03-14-2009, 04:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
sobeit TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: NEAR Posts: 7,433 OS: windows/linux	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms they could be saying that the mother is pushing the kids too hard because of their high testing scores... __________________ there's been global warming since the ice age

03-14-2009, 03:31 PM	#5 (permalink)
csc2000e Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 340 OS: Vista Home Premium SP1 My System	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Some of the brightest kids I know are home schooled. I agree with RedScott. The public school system does indoctrinate kids. Students are at the mercy of the ideology of the teacher.

03-14-2009, 08:13 PM	#6 (permalink)
Canaanabolaanan TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 566 OS: XP Pro SP3	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Home schooling should certainly be allowed. Imposing public schooling on someone is a violation of their free will. If the parents are capable of providing education to their kids, it's obnoxious for the courts to rule in such a manner.

03-15-2009, 06:05 AM	#7 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,057 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Try to read past the headlines. This is a divorce case. The mom is home schooling them. (Doing a good job too - agreed by everyone.) But the dad wants them to experience public schools (his reasons don't matter.) So the real question here is not about the judge ordering a kid into public schools for state indoctrination - its about divorced fathers having a say in the raising of their kids. Think people, think. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

03-15-2009, 05:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,057 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Off topic but I'll address lola's comment: Based on our experience in TN some years ago...the state required that the home school parent (teacher) have a HS degree up to the kid's 8th grade - unless it was a church related home school! Then a college degree was required - unless it was a church related home school! (We can discuss the church/state aspect in another thread.) Home schooling can be very effective. It can make practically any event a learning experience, which is a good thing. On the other hand it can be very one dimensional. We have friends who home schooled their 4 daughters all of whom have gone on to get university degrees. They're exceptional at graphic arts and such but none of them can do a lick of math. But they are well adjusted young ladies who we are proud to call friends. Not the social misfits many make home schoolers out to be. But back on topic; home schooling is not the issue here. The question is: does the dad have a say in how mom raises the kids in a divorced family? __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion. Last edited by yustr; 03-15-2009 at 05:17 PM.

03-15-2009, 06:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
Canaanabolaanan TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 566 OS: XP Pro SP3	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms I guess I glanced too quickly through this thread. The divorce idea should have been more obvious to me. And I think a public education would be a better experience for a child, as you point out, Lola. But homeschooling children have to take standardized tests. So if they pass these tests that equate them with the performance of publicly schooled children, then the parent should have the option to teach them if they want. Some don't want public schooling because of the alleged liberal bias, or lack of Christian teachings. So if parents can teach their children the same information, essentially without this filter, it should be their prerogative, provided they can match the education. It's not an education I'd want, but it is the right of the parents to choose it. But with this case, I do agree that it's a divorce matter.

03-15-2009, 06:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 496 OS: Windows XP	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Home schooling is exponentially better at developing a child's social skills than public school. Public school specifically teaches children bad social skills. Actually I can't think a worse place for kids to learn how to interact than in a public school setting.

03-15-2009, 08:16 PM	#15 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 496 OS: Windows XP	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms lol, why would a home schooled child necessarily have no friends and an uneducated mother? Couldn't a public school child just as likely have little or no friends? And, actually, we home school our children and gasp they are involved in sports, plays, dances, etc. etc. In my house we have a controlled environment in which children are closely monitored by adults for behavioral and social missteps. Acting out negatively toward other children is met with adult correction and encouragement. They also see the example set forth by the other adults in the house in a mature relationship. They see other adults interacting with other adults. They see these interactions and learn what correct social behavior is. After all, it is said that children catch more than they're taught. Now let's look at the public school example. Kids are piled into cell block style, forced confinement classrooms at a ratio of 30 rude, screaming, selfish, socially underdeveloped morons to every 1 relationally mature adult. Their examples to learn from are other emotionally and socially immature kids. They rarely see interactions between mature adults, or even more mature students as we've long since abolished the notion of mixing age groups. Their own interactions are largely unsupervised. They learn not from proper adult correction and encouragement, but from the ridicule and often unjust incitement from their peers. After all, most of us (who went through the 12 year indoctrination program) weren't congratulated by our friends for being nice to "different" people. We were egged on to marginalize them through jeers and laughing. Of course for every anecdotal account of the home school kid who just didn't quite fit in with the other kids (the tragedy!), I can post ten factual news articles about public school kids partaking in such socially acceptable and developed behaviors as date rape, assault, gang activity, or even mass murder at those very government holding tanks they were forced against their will to attend. As for arguments about limiting a child's learning capacity because of their mother's own lack of knowledge, I would agree that if you are just transferring knowledge from your head to the child's head than yes, it would be limited. But our goal for homeschooling, and a significant reason for not sending them to school, is to teach our children to learn and think for themselves. If a person becomes dependent on someone else teaching them for knowledge, they stop learning when they leave school.

03-16-2009, 05:04 PM	#18 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,314 OS: XP SP2 Blog Entries: 9	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Sorry Yustr to talk on homeschooling rather than divorce rights but... Red, what do you do when your children ask you a question that is beyond your understanding? Sometimes we can't teach ourselves all we need to know. Sometimes we need to be taught. And through the teaching comes inspiration in a subject. So I think I would rather be taught by someone who loved their subject. As for social interaction; what steps do you need to take so that a child gets a childhood? What steps do you have to take to get a child used to going into the world on their own? If a child is always cared for by parents, and taught by parents, how does that not just build an undue dependency upon parents?

03-16-2009, 06:21 PM	#19 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,280 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Judge orders homeschoolers into public district classrooms Well, EP, most homeschoolers I know recognize the importance of social activities for the kids. That's how my daughters know some of these kids. Things like city and county athletic programs, 4H, church, etc. Answering the tough questions is why most parents use the available course materials and the support network. What!, you never had a teacher that encountered difficulty making a concept clear? Yeah, I know I'm not Yustr. No doubt he'll have his own response. __________________ Sweet!