Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 04:53 PM

What is everyone's thoughts about this Prop 8 protesting in California. My thoughts below.

Because I believe that homosexuality is biological and exists in the animal kingdom, I believe that we cannot discriminate against people who are born with the desire to be with someone of the same sex. Love is love, period. And, they deserve the same rights as straight couples. Why should they be forced to form some alternative "union" and other alternative ways of defining their love? Why can we not integrate them into our society with open arms?

Mcninjaguy · 03-06-2009, 05:01 PM

Gay marriage

let em suffer like the rest of us, They shouldn't be less screwed over than hetrosexual couples. I have gay friends and whatever if they get married and its two men they might just want to wear different suits or whatever. This is clear cut to me allow gay people the same rights as everyone else

gay monkeys and gay whales exist (not too sure about the whales)

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcninjaguy

Gay marriage

let em suffer like the rest of us, They shouldn't be less screwed over than hetrosexual couples. I have gay friends and whatever if they get married and its two men they might just want to wear different suits or whatever. This is clear cut to me allow gay people the same rights as everyone else

gay monkeys and gay whales exist (not too sure about the whales)

Over 400 gay species in the animal kingdom, so my thought is that it is natural. Yes, they should suffer or be happy like all other married couples. Maybe when they find out that their divorce rates are over 50%, just like they are for heteros, they might wise up and just live together and draw up the proper paperwork...the logical way. (just my opinion). Being legally and financially bound to someone has always made me feel so uneasy. If their credit is bad and they forget to pay their taxes, it effects me just the same. Why not just live together, have a ceremony, draw up legal paperwork? Just leave out the government from my love life.

yustr · 03-06-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolarobot

Just leave out the government from my love life.

There are thousands of implied rights acquired by marriage. If the State had to spell it all out the document would be think indeed. What if you forget to include something important?

I say just leave religion out of State business.

If you want to follow your marriage with a church service sobeit. I didn't and I'm just as married as the guy who did.

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

There are thousands of implied rights acquired by marriage. If the State had to spell it all out the document would be think indeed. What if you forget to include something important?

I say just leave religion out of State business.

If you want to follow your marriage with a church service sobeit. I didn't and I'm just as married as the guy who did.

Yes, many implied rights, but not legal, so these implied rights can be obtained over a period of time, right? Give me an example of something that "could" be excluded that could not be obtained using a lawyer and some documents.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-06-2009, 06:05 PM

I'm not so sure I would justify homosexuality just because it is found in other species. There are lots of things that other species do, that I wouldn't dream of endorsing for humans.
In my opinion, if homosexuality is justified then it is at a far higher level. It is because it is seen as a function of love or commitment or social interaction.

There has to come a watershed in our understanding of marriage. Either it is secular, and is just as applicable to homosexuals as heterosexuals, and probably also polygamists. Or it is a religious ceremony, and as such would be expected to tightly conform to the teachings of the religion.
My worry is that we are devoicing a sense of commitment with the idea of serious relationships. And its hard to see how that doesn't extend into ideas of parenting; and ideas of taking care of elderly parents. And if any bond/ vow is transient, then where does that leave governmental promises or financial covenants?

So my take is that marriage is good for any serious relationship: homosexual, heterosexual or other. But that it is only worth undertaking if you are prepared to put in a lot of hard effort to keep it working.

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

I'm not so sure I would justify homosexuality just because it is found in other species. There are lots of things that other species do, that I wouldn't dream of endorsing for humans.
In my opinion, if homosexuality is justified then it is at a far higher level. It is because it is seen as a function of love or commitment or social interaction.

There has to come a watershed in our understanding of marriage. Either it is secular, and is just as applicable to homosexuals as heterosexuals, and probably also polygamists. Or it is a religious ceremony, and as such would be expected to tightly conform to the teachings of the religion.
My worry is that we are devoicing a sense of commitment with the idea of serious relationships. And its hard to see how that doesn't extend into ideas of parenting; and ideas of taking care of elderly parents. And if any bond/ vow is transient, then where does that leave governmental promises or financial covenants?

So my take is that marriage is good for any serious relationship: homosexual, heterosexual or other. But that it is only worth undertaking if you are prepared to put in a lot of hard effort to keep it working.

Well, if you feel that a "governmental" bond makes a marriage more "serious" or the love deeper, I think you are mistaken. Just because you make it harder for someone to divorce because of more paperwork to fill out and more divorce lawyers to pay, has certainly not lowered divorced rates. Transiency is pretty easy, paperwork or not.

And yes, I absolutely use the animal kingdom as more proof that homosexuality is "natural." And, of course the mounds of evidence with humans. I can't discount this.

I think that love for your partner, your family or your children is natural and no governmental agency should be involved, and religion is certainly not required for any of the above either. I don't believe that leaving out God or lawyers "divorces" us from the seriousness of love.

yustr · 03-06-2009, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lolarobot

Yes, many implied rights, but not legal, so these implied rights can be obtained over a period of time, right? Give me an example of something that "could" be excluded that could not be obtained using a lawyer and some documents.

My point exactly. Right now my wife can make medical decisions in the event I cannot. Nothing signed saying I give her that right. No agreement necessary. No questions asked (unless you're John Ashcroft).

My boyfriend would need a lawyer.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-06-2009, 06:46 PM

@ Lola:
Yes, I do think that the concept of a vow is an important one.
Now you can argue over who it should be said in front of; but I believe that a vow is of much importance.
I suppose you could look at it as a binding goal. Without a goal, a relationship could wander in a number of directions. Without a binding force a relationship could as easily disband.
I do not argue that marriage should be legally tied up so that it is so messy to dissolve. I do not argue that divorce should carry a stigma. But I do think that the thought process in committing to a vow is one that should mentally prepare someone for the longterm. And I think that longterm is a very good thing to aim for.
Love is an interesting factor. I believe that if you expect love (or sex for that matter) to be the glue to hold a relationship together, it will only be a transient relationship. And I think that also looses any chance of a deeper love that is forged through time and effort.

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

@ Lola:
Yes, I do think that the concept of a vow is an important one.
Now you can argue over who it should be said in front of; but I believe that a vow is of much importance.
I suppose you could look at it as a binding goal. Without a goal, a relationship could wander in a number of directions. Without a binding force a relationship could as easily disband.
I do not argue that marriage should be legally tied up so that it is so messy to dissolve. I do not argue that divorce should carry a stigma. But I do think that the thought process in committing to a vow is one that should mentally prepare someone for the longterm. And I think that longterm is a very good thing to aim for.
Love is an interesting factor. I believe that if you expect love (or sex for that matter) to be the glue to hold a relationship together, it will only be a transient relationship. And I think that also looses any chance of a deeper love that is forged through time and effort.

I guess I just don't like the word "bind," at least in the way you speak of it, when speaking of love. I want my love to be glue-free. Glue can always be dissolved, no matter how strong it is. I believe love exists in the mind and if marriage is something that is desired for the right reasons on both sides, then so be it. Otherwise, with me being an atheist and having no children, I just don't see a reason for it. I just dated a guy who wanted to get married and I did not, but eventually he kind of convinced me... well, we broke up, but I always had images in the back of my mind of mental and financial bondage.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-06-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

My point exactly. Right now my wife can make medical decisions in the event I cannot. Nothing signed saying I give her that right. No agreement necessary. No questions asked (unless you're John Ashcroft).

My boyfriend would need a lawyer.

Or is it that your wife would need a lawyer if you had a boyfriend?

Good point though. Legal marriage does confer rights. I just hope that people looking for rights through marriage don't devalue marriage.

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 07:16 PM

One document can give someone the "right" to make medical decisions. In fact, one visit to one lawyer you could probably take care of all of that. I have a will in which I named my partner; real easy.

I think MANY people wanting marriage devalue it as they are looking for something other than love, like money, an insurance pay-off, etc. etc.

**40sondacurb** · 03-06-2009, 08:10 PM

nothing would cause a greater increase of republican victories than the courts overturning the very constitution they are directed by.

**Drew1369** · 03-06-2009, 10:52 PM

My views do not matter for prop 8 because the people decided.

Call it a civil union and I'm fine.

lolarobot · 03-06-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drew1369

My views do not matter for prop 8 because the people decided.

Call it a civil union and I'm fine.

Yes, the people did vote. But, people can disagree with a vote, especially when it is so close. When a vote is based on discrimination, you are going to get some protesting and I understand that and I encourage them to continue. At one time people thought it was cool to separate blacks and white and that women could not vote or that slavery was a good way to utilize black people, but in the end, these were never good decisions and based on oppression and discrimination, so I guess only time will tell.

But, yes, in the meantime, a civil union would suffice. If I was a gay woman, knowing what I know, I would never want to be "married," just a civil union and be done with it. Love is in the heart anyway.

**Drew1369** · 03-06-2009, 11:21 PM

You encourage them to destroy peoples lives... force people into quitting their jobs, destroying churches because these people made individual contributions? Create blacklists against companies because individual employees contributed?

That is all the prop 8 protesters have done.

**Canaanabolaanan** · 03-07-2009, 02:44 AM

Sounds like in an ideal world, prop 8 would have failed, and the protesting wouldn't have ensued.

Calling it a "Civil union" is fine as long as it confers all the same state rights as marriage. "Marriage" is fine if it doesn't. They should absolutely get the same rights as anyone else. I don't care if you're partial to the latest definition of marriage (since it's been bastardized since its inception). If you want it protected as a sacred religious event, then remove its influence from our governance.

And if you make the case that it's immoral, bigotry is immoral too, hypocrite.

Mcninjaguy · 03-07-2009, 04:37 AM

Prop 8 is stupid and so are people

Ignorant and worried about what would infringe on their own little self centered world. I think that the voter who voted for prop is worried that they're gonna be raped or its som illision of what the bible says.

The bible is one of the greatest and worst inventions ever

Its brought out mass producing books allowing people to be literate
its taught people morals and has brought on some philosophies
its brought faith and hope to people

some cons are people take it like any other religion and only use the bad parts of the Bible to suit their overly ambitious evil ways and thats how wars are started and society doesn't advance

Ideally people wouldn't care what two consenting adults do in their bedroom, but they do and they're hypocrites. They think gays are trying to take over the world well that won't happen its biology for Christ sake.

if church and state were really separate Prop 8 would be shot before it even started

yustr · 03-07-2009, 05:34 AM

Question for you zealots: why do you accept that the Sate has to give you the power to marry individuals? "By the power invested to me by the Sate of CA..." If its truly sacred, shouldn't your preachers denounce that requirement?

Mcninjaguy · 03-07-2009, 05:51 AM

For me the act of marriage wouldn't be about the religion but a big jump in a committed religion. I would care if I was married by a pastor or a judge of the peace.

so yea The government of California needs to loosen its stupid overly conservative grip.

03-06-2009, 04:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
lolarobot Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 484 OS: xp	Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy What is everyone's thoughts about this Prop 8 protesting in California. My thoughts below. Because I believe that homosexuality is biological and exists in the animal kingdom, I believe that we cannot discriminate against people who are born with the desire to be with someone of the same sex. Love is love, period. And, they deserve the same rights as straight couples. Why should they be forced to form some alternative "union" and other alternative ways of defining their love? Why can we not integrate them into our society with open arms? __________________ “The greater your capacity to love, the greater your capacity to feel the pain.”

03-06-2009, 05:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mcninjaguy Temporarily Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 10,422 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit My System Blog Entries: 1	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy Gay marriage let em suffer like the rest of us, They shouldn't be less screwed over than hetrosexual couples. I have gay friends and whatever if they get married and its two men they might just want to wear different suits or whatever. This is clear cut to me allow gay people the same rights as everyone else gay monkeys and gay whales exist (not too sure about the whales)

03-06-2009, 06:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,314 OS: XP SP2 Blog Entries: 9	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy I'm not so sure I would justify homosexuality just because it is found in other species. There are lots of things that other species do, that I wouldn't dream of endorsing for humans. In my opinion, if homosexuality is justified then it is at a far higher level. It is because it is seen as a function of love or commitment or social interaction. There has to come a watershed in our understanding of marriage. Either it is secular, and is just as applicable to homosexuals as heterosexuals, and probably also polygamists. Or it is a religious ceremony, and as such would be expected to tightly conform to the teachings of the religion. My worry is that we are devoicing a sense of commitment with the idea of serious relationships. And its hard to see how that doesn't extend into ideas of parenting; and ideas of taking care of elderly parents. And if any bond/ vow is transient, then where does that leave governmental promises or financial covenants? So my take is that marriage is good for any serious relationship: homosexual, heterosexual or other. But that it is only worth undertaking if you are prepared to put in a lot of hard effort to keep it working.

03-06-2009, 06:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,314 OS: XP SP2 Blog Entries: 9	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy @ Lola: Yes, I do think that the concept of a vow is an important one. Now you can argue over who it should be said in front of; but I believe that a vow is of much importance. I suppose you could look at it as a binding goal. Without a goal, a relationship could wander in a number of directions. Without a binding force a relationship could as easily disband. I do not argue that marriage should be legally tied up so that it is so messy to dissolve. I do not argue that divorce should carry a stigma. But I do think that the thought process in committing to a vow is one that should mentally prepare someone for the longterm. And I think that longterm is a very good thing to aim for. Love is an interesting factor. I believe that if you expect love (or sex for that matter) to be the glue to hold a relationship together, it will only be a transient relationship. And I think that also looses any chance of a deeper love that is forged through time and effort.

03-06-2009, 07:16 PM	#12 (permalink)
lolarobot Registered User Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Plano, Texas Posts: 484 OS: xp	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy One document can give someone the "right" to make medical decisions. In fact, one visit to one lawyer you could probably take care of all of that. I have a will in which I named my partner; real easy. I think MANY people wanting marriage devalue it as they are looking for something other than love, like money, an insurance pay-off, etc. etc. __________________ “The greater your capacity to love, the greater your capacity to feel the pain.”

03-06-2009, 08:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy nothing would cause a greater increase of republican victories than the courts overturning the very constitution they are directed by. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running

03-06-2009, 10:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,427 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy My views do not matter for prop 8 because the people decided. Call it a civil union and I'm fine. __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

03-06-2009, 11:21 PM	#16 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,427 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy You encourage them to destroy peoples lives... force people into quitting their jobs, destroying churches because these people made individual contributions? Create blacklists against companies because individual employees contributed? That is all the prop 8 protesters have done. __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

03-07-2009, 02:44 AM	#17 (permalink)
Canaanabolaanan TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 560 OS: XP Pro SP3	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy Sounds like in an ideal world, prop 8 would have failed, and the protesting wouldn't have ensued. Calling it a "Civil union" is fine as long as it confers all the same state rights as marriage. "Marriage" is fine if it doesn't. They should absolutely get the same rights as anyone else. I don't care if you're partial to the latest definition of marriage (since it's been bastardized since its inception). If you want it protected as a sacred religious event, then remove its influence from our governance. And if you make the case that it's immoral, bigotry is immoral too, hypocrite.

03-07-2009, 04:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
Mcninjaguy Temporarily Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 10,422 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit My System Blog Entries: 1	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy Prop 8 is stupid and so are people Ignorant and worried about what would infringe on their own little self centered world. I think that the voter who voted for prop is worried that they're gonna be raped or its som illision of what the bible says. The bible is one of the greatest and worst inventions ever Its brought out mass producing books allowing people to be literate its taught people morals and has brought on some philosophies its brought faith and hope to people some cons are people take it like any other religion and only use the bad parts of the Bible to suit their overly ambitious evil ways and thats how wars are started and society doesn't advance Ideally people wouldn't care what two consenting adults do in their bedroom, but they do and they're hypocrites. They think gays are trying to take over the world well that won't happen its biology for Christ sake. if church and state were really separate Prop 8 would be shot before it even started

03-07-2009, 05:34 AM	#19 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,049 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy Question for you zealots: why do you accept that the Sate has to give you the power to marry individuals? "By the power invested to me by the Sate of CA..." If its truly sacred, shouldn't your preachers denounce that requirement? __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

03-07-2009, 05:51 AM	#20 (permalink)
Mcninjaguy Temporarily Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 10,422 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit My System Blog Entries: 1	Re: Gay Marriage or Civil Union? Prop 8 Controversy For me the act of marriage wouldn't be about the religion but a big jump in a committed religion. I would care if I was married by a pastor or a judge of the peace. so yea The government of California needs to loosen its stupid overly conservative grip.