Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course

yustr · 05-19-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

U.S. FEDERAL COURT DECISION SUPPORTS TRAVELLER LAPTOP SEIZURES
Alexandria, Va. -- The Association of Corporate Travel Executives (ACTE)
has issued a warning to its members worldwide - and to all business
travelers - to limit proprietary information on laptop computers when
crossing U.S. borders, and to eliminate any personal data, including
photographs, finances and email that you do not want examined by Border
Protection authorities. The warning follows a decision by a federal
appeals court on 21 April 2008 giving customs officials the unfettered
authority to examine, copy, and seize travelers' laptops - without
reasonable suspicion.

Such is one inevitable consequence of the state of fear we have allowed to fester here. Shameful...truly shameful.

~~Wozer~~ · 05-19-2008, 08:24 PM

woe to the poor soul that has pictures of his/her children taking a bath on his/her HDD....they will probably end up being charged with possessing CP...what a farce of 'reality'..sheeshus..

the problem with the 'law' is that those who work as such WANT the job...get my drift?...

**Drew1369** · 05-19-2008, 08:49 PM

That is stupid... holy jesus how can... this is shameful on many levels

chauffeur2 · 05-19-2008, 08:52 PM

This can only happen in America.

yustr · 05-19-2008, 08:54 PM

We interrupt this broadcast to make the following announcement:

Drew1369 and yustr agree on something.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast, joined in progress.

**Drew1369** · 05-19-2008, 09:02 PM

lol... bound to happen sooner or later... I just can't see how suspicion doesn't have to be involved

bry623 · 05-20-2008, 08:45 AM

Like a terrorist is going to have a laptop.

**EnglishPaul** · 05-20-2008, 04:23 PM

What's next? Mandatory full body cavity searches on entry to US? Electronic tagging? A tattoo etched on everyone's arm? Perhaps airlines don't loose as many bags as we think they do- perhaps they are requisitioned.

yustr · 05-21-2008, 02:35 AM

Remember that old song by Queen: Another one bites the dust. And another one gone and another one gone. Another one bites the dust.

Quote:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

These are dark days indeed.

**Fox** · 05-21-2008, 04:22 AM

This is shameful. To think that we used to live in a free country!

I'm currently in Germany where I'm visiting with my brother who's here on a study abroad. They didn't even check my passport or ask me what I was bringing in when I touched down. Granted, it was technically an inter-EU flight since I connected in Paris, but I didn't have to go through French customs either.

Now, I'm considering pulling my laptop's hard drive on the trip back and sticking it into my camera bag- I have nothing to hide, but I don't want that drive imaged on an NSA database, because I think it's an outrageous violation of rights. That's like somebody taking down a list of the books I read and the places I go. The irony, of course, is that that is already an accepted "counter-terrorism" tactic. Maybe I'll stick a knoppix disk in there. That seems to be a better idea anyway- there's nothing to search through when your computer doesn't retain anything in the first place.

bry623 · 05-21-2008, 11:26 AM

@yustr

The Bill of rights only pertains to U.S. citizens.

**Fox** · 05-21-2008, 11:44 AM

Yes, but I'm pretty sure this applies to everybody, including U.S. citizens.

**EnglishPaul** · 05-21-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

@yustr

The Bill of rights only pertains to U.S. citizens.

That probably goes a long way to explain the conduct of America towards other nations.

@Fox: You will probably find that the French customs officers were on strike. For French people it is a national pastime.

**Drew1369** · 05-21-2008, 07:44 PM

I was thinking of this problem on my way to work, now I know that when you are entering the security zone you ARE granting them permission to search you, or else you wont fly so would that include looking thru your laptop?

I still say no, as you cannot have a bomb as a program... NOW, they can legally take it apart and put it back together for the purpose of checking, again you gave them permission to when you went into the security zone.

But I still say the program search is not right... what threat is it? You are innocent until proven guilty.

I could have the jolly rogers cookbook on my computer... does having that make me a threat? Well, perhaps I'm not the best example...

yustr · 05-21-2008, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

@yustr

The Bill of rights only pertains to U.S. citizens.

Bry: This ruling applies to US citizens.

To point out one irony: the article was provided to me by a branch of the US Government. It went on to give guidance on how to encrypt files so that they could not be opened...by another branch of the US Government.

The patients have taken over the asylum.

mikeber · 05-22-2008, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Like a terrorist is going to have a laptop.

bry, that is exactly the point. Even if a terrorist carries a laptop, one cannot seize 10000 laptops from innocent travelers. Not if you pretend being a democratic, free country. You cannot tap communications, arrest or imprison thousands of individuals even in the case that you know a terrorist might be among them. Nevertheless when you have no solid information of that.
These are basic rules of free societies, (which doesn't mean we cannot or shouldn't defend ourselves).
The US jumped from one extreme to another. Before 9/11 nobody was aware (or simply didn't care) that acts of terror on American soil might be possible. The money, resources, personnel that were dedicated to preventing terror were a joke. I remember traveling trough airports were nobody asked for passports or any identity documents. I could walk wherever I chose and nobody cared.
After 9/11 things dramatically changed. Now we are a paranoid, fear struck nation, which checks travelers for nail clippers and key chains. Billions of communications are intercepted (without immediate reason).
The current administration acts from the same point of view as the Chinese regime: everyone is a potential suspect and fear is the normal mood.

meanstreak · 05-23-2008, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeber

bry, that is exactly the point. Even if a terrorist carries a laptop, one cannot seize 10000 laptops from innocent travelers. Not if you pretend being a democratic, free country. You cannot tap communications, arrest or imprison thousands of individuals even in the case that you know a terrorist might be among them. Nevertheless when you have no solid information of that.
These are basic rules of free societies, (which doesn't mean we cannot or shouldn't defend ourselves).
The US jumped from one extreme to another. Before 9/11 nobody was aware (or simply didn't care) that acts of terror on American soil might be possible. The money, resources, personnel that were dedicated to preventing terror were a joke. I remember traveling trough airports were nobody asked for passports or any identity documents. I could walk wherever I chose and nobody cared.
After 9/11 things dramatically changed. Now we are a paranoid, fear struck nation, which checks travelers for nail clippers and key chains. Billions of communications are intercepted (without immediate reason).
The current administration acts from the same point of view as the Chinese regime: everyone is a potential suspect and fear is the normal mood.

well thank goodness Obama and/or Hillary are going to be elected soon to make everything perfect again, just like in 1999!

**jcgriff2** · 05-27-2008, 01:26 AM

Lockerbie.

All that I have ever had to do was to show TSA that it will boot-up.

.

yustr · 05-27-2008, 07:24 AM

jc,

I think we all agree that that is a reasonable security measure. However, what this ruling says is that they can read and copy all of the data on your laptop. A completely different beast altogether.

**Fox** · 05-28-2008, 01:45 PM

I just got through customs today at Newark International. No screening luckily, and the entire process was fairly smooth, so hopefully even if this is legally permissible, it won't become commonplace. It's not good enough, but it's better than them downloading everything into some big black box.

05-19-2008, 08:24 PM	#2 (permalink)
~~Wozer~~ Troubled Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,038 OS: 2kpro/XP pro/MCE	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course woe to the poor soul that has pictures of his/her children taking a bath on his/her HDD....they will probably end up being charged with possessing CP...what a farce of 'reality'..sheeshus.. the problem with the 'law' is that those who work as such WANT the job...get my drift?...

05-19-2008, 08:49 PM	#3 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,440 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course That is stupid... holy jesus how can... this is shameful on many levels __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

05-19-2008, 08:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
chauffeur2 Manager Emeritus Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 10,180 OS: Xp Sp3 with all updates + Vista™ Ultimate SP1. My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course This can only happen in America. __________________ Dave T. Submit New Articles If it works, Don't fix it! Especially if Bill Gates had anything to do with it!!

05-19-2008, 08:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,057 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course We interrupt this broadcast to make the following announcement: Drew1369 and yustr agree on something. We now return you to our regularly scheduled broadcast, joined in progress. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

05-19-2008, 09:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,440 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course lol... bound to happen sooner or later... I just can't see how suspicion doesn't have to be involved __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

05-20-2008, 08:45 AM	#7 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,698 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course Like a terrorist is going to have a laptop. __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"

05-20-2008, 04:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,314 OS: XP SP2 Blog Entries: 9	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course What's next? Mandatory full body cavity searches on entry to US? Electronic tagging? A tattoo etched on everyone's arm? Perhaps airlines don't loose as many bags as we think they do- perhaps they are requisitioned.

05-21-2008, 04:22 AM	#10 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course This is shameful. To think that we used to live in a free country! I'm currently in Germany where I'm visiting with my brother who's here on a study abroad. They didn't even check my passport or ask me what I was bringing in when I touched down. Granted, it was technically an inter-EU flight since I connected in Paris, but I didn't have to go through French customs either. Now, I'm considering pulling my laptop's hard drive on the trip back and sticking it into my camera bag- I have nothing to hide, but I don't want that drive imaged on an NSA database, because I think it's an outrageous violation of rights. That's like somebody taking down a list of the books I read and the places I go. The irony, of course, is that that is already an accepted "counter-terrorism" tactic. Maybe I'll stick a knoppix disk in there. That seems to be a better idea anyway- there's nothing to search through when your computer doesn't retain anything in the first place. __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!

05-21-2008, 11:26 AM	#11 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,698 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course @yustr The Bill of rights only pertains to U.S. citizens. __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"

05-21-2008, 11:44 AM	#12 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course Yes, but I'm pretty sure this applies to everybody, including U.S. citizens. __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!

05-21-2008, 07:44 PM	#14 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,440 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course I was thinking of this problem on my way to work, now I know that when you are entering the security zone you ARE granting them permission to search you, or else you wont fly so would that include looking thru your laptop? I still say no, as you cannot have a bomb as a program... NOW, they can legally take it apart and put it back together for the purpose of checking, again you gave them permission to when you went into the security zone. But I still say the program search is not right... what threat is it? You are innocent until proven guilty. I could have the jolly rogers cookbook on my computer... does having that make me a threat? Well, perhaps I'm not the best example... __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

05-27-2008, 01:26 AM	#18 (permalink)
jcgriff2 Moderator, Microsoft Supp Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Great State of New Jersey - away from the gross corruption of the Riverside County, CA, SO office. SHAMEFUL ! Posts: 10,137 OS: Windows 7, Vista Ultimate My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course Lockerbie. All that I have ever had to do was to show TSA that it will boot-up. . __________________ . . . . . . . . BSOD Posting Instructions B Expecting a reply and waiting > 36 hours ? Send a PM to me containing a link to your thread Glad to be home in the Great State of New Jersey ! ! Last edited by jcgriff2; 05-27-2008 at 01:27 AM.

05-27-2008, 07:24 AM	#19 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,057 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course jc, I think we all agree that that is a reasonable security measure. However, what this ruling says is that they can read and copy all of the data on your laptop. A completely different beast altogether. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

05-28-2008, 01:45 PM	#20 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	Re: Attention all Travelers to the US - You are a criminal, of course I just got through customs today at Newark International. No screening luckily, and the entire process was fairly smooth, so hopefully even if this is legally permissible, it won't become commonplace. It's not good enough, but it's better than them downloading everything into some big black box. __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!