mimo2005

Sect leaders at a polygamist compound, the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, located near El Dorado, refused Saturday to let authorities search a temple for a teenage girl whose report of abuse led to the raid, and authorities said they were preparing "for the worst."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5i...DDo4QD8VS2L581

Another church going South.
Jesus loves you little girl.

yustr

Interesting arguments as to why this religion? Oh wait, I meant to say cult? Or is it a sect? How about calling it a breakout faction? Why not Catholic Churches - lots of pedophile priests running around. How about charlatan preacher's taking money based on false promises (fraud)?

By any name its a group of Mormons who happen to read something into their scripture that others don't. Isn't this the founding idea of every religion? And one of the strongest arguments why there is no god: why leave the most fundamental of beliefs, namely these are my directions on how you should live your life, open to misinterpretation? Lazy god? Dumb god?

If its just a bunch of old guys who figured out a way to have sex with teenage girls - understandable - not legal but understandable.

At least Texas is doing something about it. I'd like to see Utah or Idaho do similar.

Rodomantade

Negative. First off, I am LDS.. or a "Mormon". That blaknet labelling is like seeing a person of Islamic faith walking down the street and yelling "terrorist!" These Fundmentalist idiots are not part of the LDS church, and were passionately excommunicated, banished, or whatever you wish to call it over 100 years ago. They are a seperate entity and a seperate religion from my church. The Mormon church is the same as any other religion. We only marry one partner and follow the same commandments and guidelines. As a "Mormon" who works in law enforcement I can say that I hope they raid and shut down ALL of these compounds and arrest every single one of these degenerate, in-breeding, scum bag leaders.

Wozer

@Rodomantade:

I think you mistook what yustr said....I know him as an intelligent human, and at worst he wasn't exact enough in what he meant...

face it, they are a group of 'mormons'...specifically a sect following the original ideals that were laid down...I'm pretty sure that Joseph Smith didn't intend for it to go the way the filth in El Dorado have taken it...

I have no issue with adults making an informed decision and having multiple partners..that's their business...BUT...when it turns into a scene where children are 'brainwashed' into a certain lifestyle of abuse then something MUST be done...freedom of religion only goes so far in my eyes...

yes, I feel your indignation and if it weren't for the fact that I've 'known' yustr for a while now I would agree with you....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon

note the dates of plural marriages and such....so to call these edited filth Mormon is not out of bounds as they are a misguided 'fundamentalist' sect of the faith...

sobeit

are you sure, the only reason that polygamy was banned was so utah could become the 45th state.

Chode

sobeit, every church changes their doctrines over time, and anyway, why quibble over points of doctrine when Rodomantade summed up the situation so well.

I mean, it's hard to argue with a man who's right.

mimo2005

Update:

Investigators report bed in polygamist temple used for sex
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5688552.html

mimo2005

Update 2 :

Cyanide document found at Texas compound
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080411/...gamist_retreat

Wozer

eh....since none of these people probably have any relatives who are in the court system, they are most likely going to have the book shoved down their throats...they just might be lucky and see the light of free day before they die...

Chode

This case continues to get increasingly creepy on several levels. For those who may not remember, all this furor was started by an anonymous call from a "16 year-old girl" who alleged that Dale Barlow had illegal sexual relations with her, and also beat her.

As it turns out, Dale Barlow has evidently not been in Texas in several years. He was interviewed in Colorado City, Arizona by Texas Rangers who decided that there was insufficient evidence to make an arrest. See: http://www.statesman.com/search/cont...t_Retreat.html

Barlow is certainly pond scum, but the fact that he wasn't even arrested is pretty telling. As is the failure of the anonymous caller to come forward out of all the 400+ children that have been removed from the compound and placed in temporary care. So far, the children are sticking to the story that no sexual misconduct occurred. Right now, sensational reporting and spin by state law enforcement aside, the State's case is looking like it has an uphill struggle ahead to try, let alone convict, anyone involved with the case.

For those who may not be familiar with the Texas legal system, Children's Protective Services operates just like the State Comptroller's Office or the IRS. They can act without due process. If abuse is reported to CPS, they can remove children from a household with no proof that the alleged abuse actually happened.

Unfortunately, in cases where real abuse or neglect can be proven, the children are still often returned to the same environment in a few months because of a lack of available foster care in the state, and perhaps because of the "conventional wisdom" that children should be with their parents or relatives.

While I still believe that many allegations of sexual misconduct and child abuse at Eldorado may be true, I think the State acted precipitously, and may well have damaged the case beyond repair.

Chode

And, yet another update: http://www.livescience.com/strangene...t-mothers.html

zineeditor

The bad thing about this case is what the authorities are putting the children through. Children should not have to be separated from their parents and their familiar environment unless absolutely necessary. As it stands the woman who made the original call to them was supposedly mentally disturbed. Frankly, it looks as if the authorities used it as an excuse to go into the compound. It remains me too much of the Waco situation. However, I supposed they learned their lesson with that one not to go too strong. When you see something like this compound raid and you think about them taking away over 400 children from the only life they've ever known and that the authorities are already talking about placing them in foster homes (which we know often doesn't turn out good) you got to wonder if it isn't all a serious mistake. If they can take away all of those children they can take anyone away!! Do you honestly think the "powers that be" would ever interfere like that 40 or 50 years ago? Now some experts might say that back then they might never get to the bottom of any serious abuse case. However, it seems that nowadays they are much too quick sometimes to make charges of abuse. Too many witchhunts if you ask me. I'm susupicious of the whole thing. Having been through the Hurricane Katrina aftermath I know how authorities can overreact to be sure! Take a look at the whole No Tolerance policies in the school system nowadays. Now that's something way out of control. What about Homeland Security and the Patriot Act? Almost all of the politicos didn't even review that stuff before they voted on it. They seriously overreacted when they went ahead and pushed that through so quickly without any serious review and revision. They don't care if they throw out democracy completely! What shocks me is not enough people have the courage to be angry about it and raise cane to get some of that stuff revised. How much more of this garbage are we supposed to tolerate coming from these bozos in Washington and elsewhere??!! Back to this problem in Texas--everyone should sit back and take a good long look at the whole situation. Surely one can see where they might have overreacted? When the authorities take it upon themselves to do something like that one has got to ask themselves if this doesn't smack more of authoritarianism than any genuine concern for the children. They are completely disrupting their lives! And regarding the issue about people getting married or involved too young--they do that in some foreign countries and our great grandparents or great great grandparents often married extremely young (have we such short memories or no knowledge of history?!). Today we are way too quick to consider someone an abuser and to judge them. One has to review the whole situation with some objectivity instead of reacting like some Joseph McCarthyite. McCarthy might have thought there was a Communist under every bed in the 1950s but there are people nowadays who think there is an abuser or someone wanted by Homeland Security under every bed or around every corner, etc., etc.This situation in Texas also smacks of religious persecution. I know a lot of people don't like or approve of the lifestyle of that group at the compound but one has got to wonder if sometimes this concern about how those people live their lives is not genuine concern for the children but an over zealous reaction to polygamy?? Perhaps it's because Americans have that Puritan heritage. That might have something to do with it. Personally I don't care for their polygamist lifestyle but I also think maybe outsiders should mind their own business and leave them well enough alone just as long as they aren't genuinely hurting any children. Note the emphasis on "genuinely". But frankly I don't think those hotshots in Texas will play fair. They will probably take the children away regardless of the evidence because some evidence can often be open to interpretation. I seriously doubt they have the wisdom of Solomon.

Chode

In the long run, I think most of these kids are going to end up with their mothers again, because that tends to be the pattern with CPS here in Texas. The foster care system just can't handle the normal load, let alone this kind of need. My wife works in public health and I know plenty of cases where kids end up back in very abusive and dangerous situations after CPS has removed them. The plan seems to be that CPS is ready to leap to the "defense" of children with lots of drama and fanfare, but ultimately return the children very, very quietly. I think this is one of our state government's worst failings.

I agree that there are some parallels with Waco here. But in this case, the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms weren't involved, so the operation wasn't directed by total morons and incompetents. However, I still think the state may have ruined its case. Though, of course, it may turn out that no improprieties or legal violations have occurred. And I have to agree with zineeditor that empowering agencies to act without normal due process is a REALLY bad idea, and a worse cure than some of the diseases they're supposed to combat.

yustr

We, as a society, have determine that a adult having sex with an underage person is a crime. How you feel about it or what they do in other countries or did in other eras is a topic for another discussion but is meaningless here. Forcing that minor to have sex is a more serious crime.

We've also said that a 14 year old cannot make an informed decision for herself. So any decision has to come from a parent or legal guardian.

Now here's my problem wit this whole story: if it turns out that some of these girls had babies by adults (as the DNA will show) that is 100% evidence that a crime was committed. But, as zineeditor alludes, the argument will be made that it was with the parents consent AS PART OF THEIR RELIGIOUS FAITH and is therefore somehow acceptable. Who cares? What standing does any religion have to violate the civil law of our society? It irrelevant why you think it was OK to father that child with the 13yo. The fact is you did. Off to jail. Mom too - who said OK.

Another proof of mimo's position that religion is just plain bad.

Chode

Here's a nice discussion of the role of DNA testing in this case as well a a synopsis of Texas' Statutory Rape laws.

Edit: Story includes our incest laws too. But you have to read the article to the end.

Wozer

not that I in any way condone the practices of this cult, but it must be pointed out that until last year it was legal for a 14 year old to get married if they had the consent of their parents/guardians...

on the subject of incest, there are rumblings that the number of children there with congenital defects is above the norm and suggests incest......from what I know of genetics a one time interbreeding is not 'all that bad' but repeated offenses is when the problems truly start...and again it looks like there have been repeated cases of inbreeding which is just plain stupid if you care about your offspring...obviously the adult males don't...

yustr

Source story Here or about anywhere you care to look. Witch hunt? Sure doesn't look like it.

sobeit

but it depends upon where they were married. They were living in Texas but it does not mean they got married there. With the exception of gay marriages, marriages in one state is recognized by all states. So it could still be a witch hunt.

yustr

Yes, but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are...its a duck.

Chode

Another factor that may make it hard for the state to prove it's case, is that close genetic relations aren't proof of crime. After all, we are dealing with a closed community that apparently practices polygamy; so the genetic thread is going to be pretty hard to untangle.

Again, it isn't that I approve of the practices of this sect, but I think even genetic testing is going to be hard pressed to sort out some of the relationships here. No matter the restrictions on what constitutes a legal marriage, a pregnancy outside of these requirements isn't necessarily a crime. At this point, it looks like a change of venue to Mars might be the only way to find an unprejudiced jury.