Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East

**40sondacurb** · 10-11-2007, 11:19 AM

Turkey reacted angrily Thursday to a U.S. congressional committee's vote to condemn the mass killings of Armenians in Turkey in World War I as an act of genocide, calling the decision "unacceptable."

In a rare and uncharacteristically strong condemnation, President Abdullah Gul criticized the vote by the House Foreign Relations Committee and warned that the decision would damage Turkey's relations with the United States

Turkish officials and lawmakers warned that if the resolution was approved by the full House, they would reconsider their country's support of the American war effort, which includes permission to ship essential supplies through Turkey and northern Iraq, and the operation of the U.S. air base at Incirlik.

Turkey severed military ties with France after its Parliament voted in 2006 to make the denial of the Armenian genocide a crime.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/11/news/turkey.php

Tactically undermining US troops to stick it to Turkey on something that had nothing to do with the US? I really do not get it.The Foreign Relations Committee decides to favor Armenia over a NATO ally that has the 7th largest conventional army and is one of the major supply portals to our ongoing conflict, that's just bad leadership.

RedScott · 10-11-2007, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Tactically undermining US troops to stick it to Turkey on something that had nothing to do with the US?

When did "having something to do with the U.S." start factoring into American foreign policy?

**40sondacurb** · 10-11-2007, 12:06 PM

It goes to he question of "why". Why now when we are relying on them to support and help our troops. Should it be our prerogative to retroactively condemn acts which have no bearing on the American people and damage Foreign Relations.

When Clinton apologized for slavery it hurt no one, and happened to be something that effects America to this day. Compare that to this action which may well be a precursor to Turkey finally saying to hell with us and making the decision to wage war on Kurdistan.

yustr · 10-11-2007, 12:12 PM

40 - the answer to your question of "Why now?" is easy...the cowards on the committee can't find anything else to do as they've willingly (and illegally) abdicated all of their responsibility and authority to the President.

RedScott · 10-11-2007, 12:34 PM

There has long been pressure from humanitarian and social justice groups (mostly leftist in nature) for the American government to recognize the Armenian Genocide. I think Yustr correctly labels this a concession to those groups who thought this was a congress they were electing to end the war in Iraq, but instead have produced nothing in the way of results.

cstr20cstr · 10-12-2007, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

40 - the answer to your question of "Why now?" is easy...the cowards on the committee can't find anything else to do as they've willingly (and illegally) abdicated all of their responsibility and authority to the President.

What, their "responsibility" to Moveon.org ?

Perhaps this is a subtle way in undermining U.S. involvment in helping the Iraqis (for radical left-wing groups like moveon.org). If you can't directly force a unilateral surrender & withdrawl of your own U.S. troops, then just add more heat to the U.S. in Iraq by attacking the U.S.'s allies.

yustr · 10-12-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cstr20cstr

What, their "responsibility" to Moveon.org ?

Perhaps this is a subtle way in undermining U.S. involvment in helping the Iraqis (for radical left-wing groups like moveon.org). If you can't directly force a unilateral surrender & withdrawl of your own U.S. troops, then just add more heat to the U.S. in Iraq by attacking the U.S.'s allies.

Bark...bark...bark....opps, wrong tree...

Quote:

Though the Executive Branch does take the lead on nearly every aspect of foreign policy, the congressional committees have used their "power of the purse" to exert influence upon the President’s agenda. In 1947, after lengthy hearings in the House Foreign Affairs Committee, the Marshall Plan—the Economic Cooperation Act of 1948—was agreed to by a vote of 329 to 74. This support of the Administration’s proposal draws a stark comparison to the use of the purse in 1970, to curb the expansion of the geographic region that the U.S. would deploy forces. To end U.S. participation decisively in Vietnam, on August 15, 1973, Congress prohibited the use of funds that would directly, or indirectly, support combat activities in North and South Vietnam, Laos, or Cambodia. The Vietnam War encouraged the Committee to scrutinize the actions of the Executive Branch more closely, and the role of the House Foreign Affairs Committee has, as a result, gained more prestige and earned more respect. Source

Nuf said...

~~Wozer~~ · 10-12-2007, 12:10 PM

whatever political motivations there might or might not be behind the timing of all of this, there still remains the FACT that Turkey was guilty of genocide in WWI...this should have been noted a long time ago and its a shame that suddenly now its being brought up like its something just noted...sheesh...

**bruiser** · 10-12-2007, 01:32 PM

This will be the THIRD Congressional resolution against Turkey over the Armenians. One in the seventies, and one in the eighties.

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-12-2007, 03:59 PM

This is a waste of time and a serious threat to national intersets. I'm sorry this happened a long time ago, yes it happened now lets get over it and move on. They are military students in Turkey on their bases, those bases are part run by Turkey, Turkey has shut those bases off in protest before creating very tight tensions with the US. We do nto want this, those bases are critical.

Tell congress tos tuff a stock in it/

**Chode** · 10-12-2007, 08:35 PM

When the Turks get over their hissy fit, I think they will remember that their interests are closely aligned with Europe and America. In a "worst case" scenario, I'd take the Kurds as allies over the Turks anytime

**40sondacurb** · 10-12-2007, 09:38 PM

Turkey has decades of history as an ally, Kurdistans has only the amount of time that we've been keeping it's neighbors from raining hell down on them. I'll take the 50 year report card over the 6 year one any day.

**Chode** · 10-18-2007, 09:49 PM

Good reasoning 40. Except that the Turks are getting ready to send troops into what has been the most peaceful and Pro-U.S. area of Iraq. Turkish incursions are only going to provoke the Kurds, the Iraqi Government, and any and all insurgent groups that want to stir up trouble.

If the U.S. wants to have a chance to build a solid Iraqi federation, we can't afford to alienate the Kurds (i.e. lie to them again or fail to provide military support), and we can't afford to fuel Iraqi "Freedom Fighters". So, we should really hope that the Turkish incursions are ineffective.

If the Turks make some big show of marching around, doing nothing, all parties may be satisfied. On the other hand, if the Turks really want to make a significant military push, the short story is that they are going to come into conflict with U.S. troops. Bad for Turkey; bad for us.

Turkey shouldn't let this issue become a roadblock to EEC membership, and a problem with fellow NATO members, or fuel Islamic fundamentalists within Turkey. I hope it is all posturing. Still,if Turkey pushes the Kurds too hard, we don't have a realistic choice except to push back.

Edit: 40, our history of involvement with the Kurds actually goes back more than 6 years. After Desert Storm, the first Bush Administration promised aid to any Iraqis that rebelled against Saddam. The Kurds took us at our word, and fought Saddam. We provided no support and the Kurds were attacked with nerve gas and slaughtered by the thousands.

I don't think we can afford a repeat performance.

**40sondacurb** · 10-19-2007, 12:53 AM

What is the advantage of having Kurds as our allies? They don't have any connections in the region. The only people seen as bigger outsiders than them are the Israelis.

In addition to that the Kurds have a militia rivaling that of the strongest Iraqi sectarian group; not to mention the terrorist groups responsible for Turkey's ire in the first place. They'll do alright as long as they stop screwing with the Turks. But If they can't do that then it's not our problem.

**Drew1369** · 10-20-2007, 05:32 AM

Rivaling that of... they are the strongest which is why we cannot afford to lose them... they wont resort to suicide tactics... they will fight like soldiers

**EnglishPaul** · 10-22-2007, 04:16 PM

It does seem odd timing by congress to make a statement on WWI.
Similarly I do not understand why the Turks are still so sensitive about it. I can't imagine the Germans are quite so sensitive over WWII and they have far more reason to be.

As for Iraq, if Turkey acts with Iraqi forces in a joint move, both parties are happy. The same is true to a lesser extent with a joint Turkish/American push.
Turkey needs action to appease those at home, and it would seem that action would be a good way of reducing the risk to Turkish border forces.

I know most of the recent wars in the middle east have been supposedly motivated by oil, but if Edmund could become allied to the queen of Narnia for Turkish delight, then we would do well not to underestimate its power.
Peace with Turkey, plentiful Turkish delight!

Sweets!

**bruiser** · 10-22-2007, 06:14 PM

I'll hazard a guess and say that one more raid into Turkey by the Kurds will force Turkey to go into Iraq. Turkey can not ignore what's happening.

yustr · 10-22-2007, 07:16 PM

Is Iraq a sovereign nation or not? If so, an invasion by Turkey into any part of Iraq is war. Yes they could jointly go after the PKK but in all probability that would force the rest of the Kurds to abandon the central government because the Turks will not be satisfied with ridding the area of only the rebels - they want all Kurds out because there's a large Kurdish population in Turkey even without those who support the PKK.

So which side does the US take? We're allies with Turkey and we're the puppet master controlling the strings of Iraq - which includes the Kurds...

oh the joys of middle eastern geo-politics...

**linderman** · 10-22-2007, 07:21 PM

cronicles of narnia >>>>> excellent movie

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-23-2007, 02:44 AM

Kurds are a critical part of the Iraq, without their support Iraq is nothing.

10-11-2007, 11:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East Turkey reacted angrily Thursday to a U.S. congressional committee's vote to condemn the mass killings of Armenians in Turkey in World War I as an act of genocide, calling the decision "unacceptable." In a rare and uncharacteristically strong condemnation, President Abdullah Gul criticized the vote by the House Foreign Relations Committee and warned that the decision would damage Turkey's relations with the United States Turkish officials and lawmakers warned that if the resolution was approved by the full House, they would reconsider their country's support of the American war effort, which includes permission to ship essential supplies through Turkey and northern Iraq, and the operation of the U.S. air base at Incirlik. Turkey severed military ties with France after its Parliament voted in 2006 to make the denial of the Armenian genocide a crime. http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/11/news/turkey.php Tactically undermining US troops to stick it to Turkey on something that had nothing to do with the US? I really do not get it.The Foreign Relations Committee decides to favor Armenia over a NATO ally that has the 7th largest conventional army and is one of the major supply portals to our ongoing conflict, that's just bad leadership. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running Last edited by 40sondacurb; 10-11-2007 at 11:27 AM.

10-11-2007, 12:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East It goes to he question of "why". Why now when we are relying on them to support and help our troops. Should it be our prerogative to retroactively condemn acts which have no bearing on the American people and damage Foreign Relations. When Clinton apologized for slavery it hurt no one, and happened to be something that effects America to this day. Compare that to this action which may well be a precursor to Turkey finally saying to hell with us and making the decision to wage war on Kurdistan. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running Last edited by 40sondacurb; 10-11-2007 at 12:08 PM.

10-11-2007, 12:12 PM	#4 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,044 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East 40 - the answer to your question of "Why now?" is easy...the cowards on the committee can't find anything else to do as they've willingly (and illegally) abdicated all of their responsibility and authority to the President. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

10-11-2007, 12:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 496 OS: Windows XP	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East There has long been pressure from humanitarian and social justice groups (mostly leftist in nature) for the American government to recognize the Armenian Genocide. I think Yustr correctly labels this a concession to those groups who thought this was a congress they were electing to end the war in Iraq, but instead have produced nothing in the way of results.

10-12-2007, 12:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
~~Wozer~~ Troubled Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,038 OS: 2kpro/XP pro/MCE	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East whatever political motivations there might or might not be behind the timing of all of this, there still remains the FACT that Turkey was guilty of genocide in WWI...this should have been noted a long time ago and its a shame that suddenly now its being brought up like its something just noted...sheesh...

10-12-2007, 01:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
bruiser TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,973 OS: xp	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East This will be the THIRD Congressional resolution against Turkey over the Armenians. One in the seventies, and one in the eighties.

10-12-2007, 03:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East This is a waste of time and a serious threat to national intersets. I'm sorry this happened a long time ago, yes it happened now lets get over it and move on. They are military students in Turkey on their bases, those bases are part run by Turkey, Turkey has shut those bases off in protest before creating very tight tensions with the US. We do nto want this, those bases are critical. Tell congress tos tuff a stock in it/

10-12-2007, 08:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,280 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East When the Turks get over their hissy fit, I think they will remember that their interests are closely aligned with Europe and America. In a "worst case" scenario, I'd take the Kurds as allies over the Turks anytime __________________ Sweet!

10-12-2007, 09:38 PM	#12 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East Turkey has decades of history as an ally, Kurdistans has only the amount of time that we've been keeping it's neighbors from raining hell down on them. I'll take the 50 year report card over the 6 year one any day. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running

10-18-2007, 09:49 PM	#13 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,280 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East Good reasoning 40. Except that the Turks are getting ready to send troops into what has been the most peaceful and Pro-U.S. area of Iraq. Turkish incursions are only going to provoke the Kurds, the Iraqi Government, and any and all insurgent groups that want to stir up trouble. If the U.S. wants to have a chance to build a solid Iraqi federation, we can't afford to alienate the Kurds (i.e. lie to them again or fail to provide military support), and we can't afford to fuel Iraqi "Freedom Fighters". So, we should really hope that the Turkish incursions are ineffective. If the Turks make some big show of marching around, doing nothing, all parties may be satisfied. On the other hand, if the Turks really want to make a significant military push, the short story is that they are going to come into conflict with U.S. troops. Bad for Turkey; bad for us. Turkey shouldn't let this issue become a roadblock to EEC membership, and a problem with fellow NATO members, or fuel Islamic fundamentalists within Turkey. I hope it is all posturing. Still,if Turkey pushes the Kurds too hard, we don't have a realistic choice except to push back. Edit: 40, our history of involvement with the Kurds actually goes back more than 6 years. After Desert Storm, the first Bush Administration promised aid to any Iraqis that rebelled against Saddam. The Kurds took us at our word, and fought Saddam. We provided no support and the Kurds were attacked with nerve gas and slaughtered by the thousands. I don't think we can afford a repeat performance. __________________ Sweet! Last edited by Chode; 10-18-2007 at 09:56 PM.

10-19-2007, 12:53 AM	#14 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East What is the advantage of having Kurds as our allies? They don't have any connections in the region. The only people seen as bigger outsiders than them are the Israelis. In addition to that the Kurds have a militia rivaling that of the strongest Iraqi sectarian group; not to mention the terrorist groups responsible for Turkey's ire in the first place. They'll do alright as long as they stop screwing with the Turks. But If they can't do that then it's not our problem. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running Last edited by 40sondacurb; 10-19-2007 at 12:55 AM.

10-20-2007, 05:32 AM	#15 (permalink)
Drew1369 Moderator Relaxation Room Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 3,425 OS: Win7 Ultimate	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East Rivaling that of... they are the strongest which is why we cannot afford to lose them... they wont resort to suicide tactics... they will fight like soldiers __________________ We humans have a primal urge to kill because, thanks to natural selection, all the homo sapiens who didn't have a primal urge to kill, were themselves killed. http://obamaclock.org/

10-22-2007, 04:16 PM	#16 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,314 OS: XP SP2 Blog Entries: 9	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East It does seem odd timing by congress to make a statement on WWI. Similarly I do not understand why the Turks are still so sensitive about it. I can't imagine the Germans are quite so sensitive over WWII and they have far more reason to be. As for Iraq, if Turkey acts with Iraqi forces in a joint move, both parties are happy. The same is true to a lesser extent with a joint Turkish/American push. Turkey needs action to appease those at home, and it would seem that action would be a good way of reducing the risk to Turkish border forces. I know most of the recent wars in the middle east have been supposedly motivated by oil, but if Edmund could become allied to the queen of Narnia for Turkish delight, then we would do well not to underestimate its power. Peace with Turkey, plentiful Turkish delight! Sweets!

10-22-2007, 06:14 PM	#17 (permalink)
bruiser TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,973 OS: xp	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East I'll hazard a guess and say that one more raid into Turkey by the Kurds will force Turkey to go into Iraq. Turkey can not ignore what's happening.

10-22-2007, 07:16 PM	#18 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,044 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East Is Iraq a sovereign nation or not? If so, an invasion by Turkey into any part of Iraq is war. Yes they could jointly go after the PKK but in all probability that would force the rest of the Kurds to abandon the central government because the Turks will not be satisfied with ridding the area of only the rebels - they want all Kurds out because there's a large Kurdish population in Turkey even without those who support the PKK. So which side does the US take? We're allies with Turkey and we're the puppet master controlling the strings of Iraq - which includes the Kurds... oh the joys of middle eastern geo-politics... __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

10-22-2007, 07:21 PM	#19 (permalink)
linderman Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20,437 OS: win 2000 pro / Win XP pro My System	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East cronicles of narnia >>>>> excellent movie __________________ I still know nothing and I respect that fact, striving to improve and, along the way, help anyone that comes from the place that I used to be! Power Supply Selection LEARN TO BACK-UP YOUR DATA FREE & EASY YouTube - Runtime Software DriveImage XML tutorial

10-23-2007, 02:44 AM	#20 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Congress callously undermines US intrest in the Middle East Kurds are a critical part of the Iraq, without their support Iraq is nothing.