"Some" US High schools aren't that good

mimo2005 · 10-04-2007, 12:48 PM

"Stupid in America" is a nasty title for a program about public education, but some nasty things are going on in America's public schools and it's about time we face up to it.

Video :
http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.co...cumentary.html

Our colleges are excellent , but we need to make sure that kids are doing good also in midle school and high school .
And i believe parents should get a little bite more involved with how much their own kids know .
For instance , your kid is 13 years old and doesn't know basic calculus or the location of neighbor countries , it s time to worry . Help your kids , they are the futur of this nation .

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-04-2007, 01:36 PM

I am considered to be of above avgerage in the american school system. Espcially for the ammount of work I put into it.

Stick me side by side and i'd be lucky to get even with a european counterpart.

This is what makes a great education

Great teachers... As simple as that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCoVa...elated&search=

A better video

I remeber a kid once asked me "Is germany still ran by nazis"

I replied "yes, expect now hilters grandson runs it"

He believed me.

mimo2005 · 10-04-2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik00117

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCoVa...elated&search=

A better video

HI Nik

Your link is a comedy show ( Cnnnn) , it is not Cnn
It is staged , it is intended to make people laugh , it is a comedy show .

Quote:

Wiki

CNNNN (Chaser NoN-stop News Network) was an Australian television show, satirising American news channels CNN and Fox News. It was produced and hosted by the same team that published The Chaser newspaper.

CNNNN's slogan was "We Report, You Believe.", a parody of Fox News' slogan ("We Report, You Decide.").

In April 2004, CNNNN won a Logie Award for 'Most Outstanding Comedy Program', an award that was shared with Kath & Kim.

their funny website :
http://www.abc.net.au/cnnnn/

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-04-2007, 02:29 PM

I know, but its still funny :)

mimo2005 · 10-04-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik00117

I know, but its still funny :)

Funny but not Necessarily True . It is not a documentary or tv news report .
Unfortunately some will confuse the real from the comedy .

RedScott · 10-04-2007, 02:39 PM

It's actually funny because it's not true. If it were true, and the average American didn't know those answers, then a large portion of people wouldn't get the joke, but since most people DO know how many sides there are to a triangle we all laugh at the person who doesn't.

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-04-2007, 11:32 PM

LOL, I'm sure they had to ask a lot, but a tri should already imply 3 angel just means it has angles in it.

Also to come up with that 20/20 they said some of those videos were taken after finals, well then that would explain a lot... I MEAN A LOT.

After finals not semster exams but finals kids are generally relieved, teachers are simply there to babysit in a sense as the kdis prepare to take the next final. e

I know when finals come around I skip like crazy, I may come in for 2nd period take a test leave, come back for 4th and take a test then as well. All depends on final schedule.

mimo2005 · 10-05-2007, 02:41 AM

Hi nik

When you study or learn something , you study it for your knowledge , mainly for you then after for the exams.
Because once you pass the exams , you can say , well now i can forget about it , and it's wrong .
Learn for yourself and your personal progress and evolution , not for the exams .

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-06-2007, 05:34 AM

But thats how the school system is designed, get a good grade on the exams and forgot about everything else.

We are tested beyond belif, had a teacher that once very publicly complained that shes being forced to teach the test and not the material. Shes being forced to teacher test tactics and not civil war facts.

Our school system is obesed with testing, we need to worry about things like O IDK... learning.

**Chode** · 10-06-2007, 03:44 PM

The Japanese and European school systems are much more centrally managed than the American system. That also means that "teaching to the test" is every bit as common (maybe more so) than under the current Federal guidelines.

A teacher who really complains about "teaching to the test" is lazy and a poor teacher. A really great teacher is one who can pound the basics into the students and still make the process enjoyable and inspire them to learn more. That's pretty tough, and requires lots of creativity and dedication. I certainly believe that teachers in America mostly fail to receive the recognition, status, and financial reward they deserve.

The good news is that for those who go on to college, they are getting a great education. That's why you see so many foreign students at American colleges and universities. The bad news is that you are still going to face a year (at least) of teaching to the test at most schools. In college, these are called "departmental exams". Most of them make the State tests look like a playdate.

Many detractors of the American educational system don't actually make fair comparisons with other systems. So, you may read about how Japanese 16 year olds score higher in math than Americans, but the comparisons tend to ignore differences in curriculum. That's to say that different school systems introduce different concepts at different grade levels. When you adjust for this and compare American scores in calculus to the equivalent course level for Japanese students, we are much closer in performance. Areas where American students outperform their counterparts in Europe and Japan go unremarked.

Tumbleweed36 · 10-06-2007, 05:21 PM

Chode,

I can't believe your post. I was a public school principal for years and you hit the nail right on the head. I am shocked that we could ever agree on anything, but have to say we do on this one. Maybe ultra liberals aren't that bad after all.

Nice analysis!

**Chode** · 10-06-2007, 05:38 PM

Once upon a time, Tumbleweed, I even apologized to you for misunderstanding your position in a post. We all want the best for our country, but that requires active and open debate. Gotta get those juices flowing.

Still, I think that the public school system takes too much flack from both extremes of the political divide, and it only hurts education. The far left seems to think there should be no controls or measurable standards, and the far right thinks that public funds should be used to pay for thinly-disguised religious schools. I believe both miss the point.

mimo2005 · 10-30-2007, 08:04 AM

Florida !!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21532193/?GT1=10450

Tumbleweed36 · 10-30-2007, 10:00 AM

There is a lot of truth in this post mimo. First of all, let me quality it by saying during my educational career, I taught in Florida for four years before returning to Indiana where I spend the majority of my educational career as a Principal. Therefore, I know something about Florida schools. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying Indiana schools are perfect or the best in the nation, they obviously are not. What I am saying is that coming from the Indiana education systems (taught in several) and moving to Florida schools was a real cultural shock.

Florida schools (has been a few years ago) were always in turmoil, the curriculum was not standardized, the discipline in Florida schools was atrocious, teachers were not well prepared, teachers at times were attacked physically by students who got a slap on the wrist and sent back to school, the vast majority of teachers did not display dedication and caring, and education was way back in the priority of important things to do. Many teachers just "gave up" and played the game to get their paycheck.

In addition, the Superintendent's office was a political office (many still are in Florida), so individuals many times got their way as the "good old buddy" system was ay work. Get me in office as Superintendent and I will protect what you want to do. Many of the Superintendents at that time were not adequately educationally prepared to do their job because it was a political office they were running for.

The most important thing to do in Florida schools was be on the football team. Coaches (in our system) would lie, cheat, badger teachers for higher grades and do anything not educational to protect and keep a football player who was out of control and educationally dead in the classroom. Nothing else mattered, but (yes, our team was always in the state championships) that Friday night football game.

I saw our band one time putting on a halftime show that had been delayed for about 30 seconds for an illness to a fan that had to be attended to by medical personnel. When the band was performing and having to be about 30 seconds late to get off the field. The coach from our school had his players run through the band as they were playing on the field as the team went back on to the field for the second half. The coach stood at center field, yelling as loud as he could "get that damn band off the field." Yes, it was his home game and the band was the one from his own school. Did he get reprimanded, nope, he was hired by the political superintendent. The band director was reprimanded for having his show run over and subsequently left the school and went in to another profession. The sequel to that story, the coach retired from coaching (oh, he won a state championship one year, so was a hero) two years later and was made a Principal where he ruined the lives of kids who needed an education for several years thereafter. Go figure that one!

The common saying in the school (large system) I was at (and other schools also) that is not too far from the truth in many cases is as follows: "If you are a teacher and not successful, they will make you a coach. If you can't do that very well, they will make you an athletic director. If you are miserable at that, you will be appointed principal. And, if you are a failure at that, the voters or the school board will make you superintendent.

What I am saying is that our schools are sick and will continue to be until society (not schools, but society in general) improves the curriculum, tends to the academic needs of students, and demands that teachers teach and are qualified. Unfortunately, many do not teach, are not qualified, and are protected by an archaic system of tenure that is based upon incompetence.

I could ramble on all day (yes, I realize this was a rant), but need to get out of here and not be on this thread because of my strong feelings for what I saw and experienced in Florida schools.

yustr · 10-30-2007, 01:10 PM

Tumble - please don't go. Keep ranting - it's enlightening and very respected.

These numbers and Sir Tumble's rant do not surprise me. That said, understand that in my community 97% of the kids go to college and the dropout is rare indeed. So we are insulated from it. Just up the road in Hartford or down in Bridgeport the drop out rate is probably >50%.

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-30-2007, 01:27 PM

I have no intentions of college, I know a lot of kids go to college to party, why go to college and party when I can work and party and get paid.

yustr · 10-30-2007, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik00117

I have no intentions of college, I know a lot of kids go to college to party, why go to college and party when I can work and party and get paid.

Fact: the average college graduate will make hundreds of thousands perhaps millions more over his lifetime than someone who did not graduate... ask yourself if your short term enjoyment is worth millions in the long run???

**DumberDrummer** · 10-31-2007, 02:22 AM

If you don't need the millions to be happy, then I'd say the answer is yes

Tumbleweed36 · 10-31-2007, 05:17 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps...terstitialskip

yustr · 10-31-2007, 06:43 AM

$120,000 for a high school football coach? In a state where only about 60% of the students graduate!

Ya think that maybe they have their priorities a little skewed??? geez

10-04-2007, 12:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, Emeritus Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11,142 OS: xp	"Some" US High schools aren't that good "Stupid in America" is a nasty title for a program about public education, but some nasty things are going on in America's public schools and it's about time we face up to it. Video : http://bestdocumentaries.blogspot.co...cumentary.html Our colleges are excellent , but we need to make sure that kids are doing good also in midle school and high school . And i believe parents should get a little bite more involved with how much their own kids know . For instance , your kid is 13 years old and doesn't know basic calculus or the location of neighbor countries , it s time to worry . Help your kids , they are the futur of this nation . __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

10-04-2007, 01:36 PM	#2 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good I am considered to be of above avgerage in the american school system. Espcially for the ammount of work I put into it. Stick me side by side and i'd be lucky to get even with a european counterpart. This is what makes a great education Great teachers... As simple as that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCoVa...elated&search= A better video I remeber a kid once asked me "Is germany still ran by nazis" I replied "yes, expect now hilters grandson runs it" He believed me. Last edited by Nik00117; 10-04-2007 at 01:50 PM.

10-04-2007, 02:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good I know, but its still funny :)

10-04-2007, 02:39 PM	#6 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 496 OS: Windows XP	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good It's actually funny because it's not true. If it were true, and the average American didn't know those answers, then a large portion of people wouldn't get the joke, but since most people DO know how many sides there are to a triangle we all laugh at the person who doesn't.

10-04-2007, 11:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good LOL, I'm sure they had to ask a lot, but a tri should already imply 3 angel just means it has angles in it. Also to come up with that 20/20 they said some of those videos were taken after finals, well then that would explain a lot... I MEAN A LOT. After finals not semster exams but finals kids are generally relieved, teachers are simply there to babysit in a sense as the kdis prepare to take the next final. e I know when finals come around I skip like crazy, I may come in for 2nd period take a test leave, come back for 4th and take a test then as well. All depends on final schedule.

10-05-2007, 02:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, Emeritus Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11,142 OS: xp	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good Hi nik When you study or learn something , you study it for your knowledge , mainly for you then after for the exams. Because once you pass the exams , you can say , well now i can forget about it , and it's wrong . Learn for yourself and your personal progress and evolution , not for the exams . __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo" Last edited by mimo2005; 10-05-2007 at 02:42 AM.

10-06-2007, 05:34 AM	#9 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good But thats how the school system is designed, get a good grade on the exams and forgot about everything else. We are tested beyond belif, had a teacher that once very publicly complained that shes being forced to teach the test and not the material. Shes being forced to teacher test tactics and not civil war facts. Our school system is obesed with testing, we need to worry about things like O IDK... learning.

10-06-2007, 03:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,280 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good The Japanese and European school systems are much more centrally managed than the American system. That also means that "teaching to the test" is every bit as common (maybe more so) than under the current Federal guidelines. A teacher who really complains about "teaching to the test" is lazy and a poor teacher. A really great teacher is one who can pound the basics into the students and still make the process enjoyable and inspire them to learn more. That's pretty tough, and requires lots of creativity and dedication. I certainly believe that teachers in America mostly fail to receive the recognition, status, and financial reward they deserve. The good news is that for those who go on to college, they are getting a great education. That's why you see so many foreign students at American colleges and universities. The bad news is that you are still going to face a year (at least) of teaching to the test at most schools. In college, these are called "departmental exams". Most of them make the State tests look like a playdate. Many detractors of the American educational system don't actually make fair comparisons with other systems. So, you may read about how Japanese 16 year olds score higher in math than Americans, but the comparisons tend to ignore differences in curriculum. That's to say that different school systems introduce different concepts at different grade levels. When you adjust for this and compare American scores in calculus to the equivalent course level for Japanese students, we are much closer in performance. Areas where American students outperform their counterparts in Europe and Japan go unremarked. __________________ Sweet!

10-06-2007, 05:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 19,657 OS: XP Professional	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good Chode, I can't believe your post. I was a public school principal for years and you hit the nail right on the head. I am shocked that we could ever agree on anything, but have to say we do on this one. Maybe ultra liberals aren't that bad after all. Nice analysis! __________________ ---------- I don't receive email notifications of replies to subscribed threads. (Internet provider policy) Therefore, if I don't respond to your post within 24 hours, please send me a reminder PM and include the link to your thread.

10-06-2007, 05:38 PM	#12 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,280 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good Once upon a time, Tumbleweed, I even apologized to you for misunderstanding your position in a post. We all want the best for our country, but that requires active and open debate. Gotta get those juices flowing. Still, I think that the public school system takes too much flack from both extremes of the political divide, and it only hurts education. The far left seems to think there should be no controls or measurable standards, and the far right thinks that public funds should be used to pay for thinly-disguised religious schools. I believe both miss the point. __________________ Sweet!

10-30-2007, 08:04 AM	#13 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, Emeritus Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11,142 OS: xp	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good Florida !!! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21532193/?GT1=10450 __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

10-30-2007, 10:00 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 19,657 OS: XP Professional	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good There is a lot of truth in this post mimo. First of all, let me quality it by saying during my educational career, I taught in Florida for four years before returning to Indiana where I spend the majority of my educational career as a Principal. Therefore, I know something about Florida schools. Don't misunderstand, I am not saying Indiana schools are perfect or the best in the nation, they obviously are not. What I am saying is that coming from the Indiana education systems (taught in several) and moving to Florida schools was a real cultural shock. Florida schools (has been a few years ago) were always in turmoil, the curriculum was not standardized, the discipline in Florida schools was atrocious, teachers were not well prepared, teachers at times were attacked physically by students who got a slap on the wrist and sent back to school, the vast majority of teachers did not display dedication and caring, and education was way back in the priority of important things to do. Many teachers just "gave up" and played the game to get their paycheck. In addition, the Superintendent's office was a political office (many still are in Florida), so individuals many times got their way as the "good old buddy" system was ay work. Get me in office as Superintendent and I will protect what you want to do. Many of the Superintendents at that time were not adequately educationally prepared to do their job because it was a political office they were running for. The most important thing to do in Florida schools was be on the football team. Coaches (in our system) would lie, cheat, badger teachers for higher grades and do anything not educational to protect and keep a football player who was out of control and educationally dead in the classroom. Nothing else mattered, but (yes, our team was always in the state championships) that Friday night football game. I saw our band one time putting on a halftime show that had been delayed for about 30 seconds for an illness to a fan that had to be attended to by medical personnel. When the band was performing and having to be about 30 seconds late to get off the field. The coach from our school had his players run through the band as they were playing on the field as the team went back on to the field for the second half. The coach stood at center field, yelling as loud as he could "get that damn band off the field." Yes, it was his home game and the band was the one from his own school. Did he get reprimanded, nope, he was hired by the political superintendent. The band director was reprimanded for having his show run over and subsequently left the school and went in to another profession. The sequel to that story, the coach retired from coaching (oh, he won a state championship one year, so was a hero) two years later and was made a Principal where he ruined the lives of kids who needed an education for several years thereafter. Go figure that one! The common saying in the school (large system) I was at (and other schools also) that is not too far from the truth in many cases is as follows: "If you are a teacher and not successful, they will make you a coach. If you can't do that very well, they will make you an athletic director. If you are miserable at that, you will be appointed principal. And, if you are a failure at that, the voters or the school board will make you superintendent. What I am saying is that our schools are sick and will continue to be until society (not schools, but society in general) improves the curriculum, tends to the academic needs of students, and demands that teachers teach and are qualified. Unfortunately, many do not teach, are not qualified, and are protected by an archaic system of tenure that is based upon incompetence. I could ramble on all day (yes, I realize this was a rant), but need to get out of here and not be on this thread because of my strong feelings for what I saw and experienced in Florida schools. __________________ ---------- I don't receive email notifications of replies to subscribed threads. (Internet provider policy) Therefore, if I don't respond to your post within 24 hours, please send me a reminder PM and include the link to your thread. Last edited by Tumbleweed36; 10-30-2007 at 10:04 AM.

10-30-2007, 01:10 PM	#15 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,050 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good Tumble - please don't go. Keep ranting - it's enlightening and very respected. These numbers and Sir Tumble's rant do not surprise me. That said, understand that in my community 97% of the kids go to college and the dropout is rare indeed. So we are insulated from it. Just up the road in Hartford or down in Bridgeport the drop out rate is probably >50%. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

10-30-2007, 01:27 PM	#16 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good I have no intentions of college, I know a lot of kids go to college to party, why go to college and party when I can work and party and get paid.

10-31-2007, 02:22 AM	#18 (permalink)
DumberDrummer Cymru am byth Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,385 OS: Windows XP Pro SP2 My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good If you don't need the millions to be happy, then I'd say the answer is yes __________________ Living with Louie dog's the only way to stay sane _____________________________________________ ... and with those words so begins my lifetime of longing for the devil's warm embrace

10-31-2007, 05:17 AM	#19 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 19,657 OS: XP Professional	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps...terstitialskip __________________ ---------- I don't receive email notifications of replies to subscribed threads. (Internet provider policy) Therefore, if I don't respond to your post within 24 hours, please send me a reminder PM and include the link to your thread.

10-31-2007, 06:43 AM	#20 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,050 OS: XP Pro My System	Re: "Some" US High schools aren't that good $120,000 for a high school football coach? In a state where only about 60% of the students graduate! Ya think that maybe they have their priorities a little skewed??? geez __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.