Bush being honest

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-01-2007, 02:02 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=V5xT1DGJMoQ

This is what I call honsety right there, here said that he simply does not know and he will work to find out. That is brilliant you can ask me many questions and many of them I will not know. I won';t lie to either

O and just to answer your question, contracters do have a set of regulations and protocols which they follow.

All laws within a nation which they operate in APPLY to them

All international treaties also APPLY to them.

It is expected of the nations secuirty forces to enforce thsoe with contractors in Iraq's case the US military handles that.

Their is also a series of protocols and produces which contractoers follow in Iraq, if engaged they are premittied to take defneisve actions to protect themsevles, or cargo. They are then to contact the US military and inform them about whats happening and request support.

I was reading a report in the starts and stripes about a incident and basically what happened was a car was traveling towards a high profile convoy, this is a convoy where everyone knows who you are, and what your packing well they asked for the car to stop it didn't they shot the car killing the driver. What do I have to say to this? well car should of stopped this is a war zone.

I know a few secuirty contractors, one was very open and honset with me, and he said several times they did kill inconent civilians or they jsut got caught up int he cross fire.

However he then made it very clear that most of the time the poeple they killed intend to do bodily harm to them.

RedScott · 10-01-2007, 04:16 PM

Yes, he is honestly a moron.

That's interesting what you mention about the contractors being subject to international treaties and law, I had not heard that. The media isn't exactly covering this issue like a blanket and the left's media is making it sound like they are all running around killing indiscriminately. Personally I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. Also it is ridiculous to call the government hiring people to work for it "privatization". The government hires contractors to build roads, yet you never hear people whining about road construction being privatized. NASA also has a hugely disproportionate amount of people directly employed by the State vs. contractors.

yustr · 10-01-2007, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Unless provided otherwise herein, the MNF, the CPA, Foreign Liaison Missions, their
Personnel, property, funds and assets, and all International Consultants shall be
immune from Iraqi legal process. Ambassador Paul Bremmer, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY ORDER NUMBER 17 (REVISED),

Basically, as long as they're acting within the terms of their contract, protecting State Department personnel for example, they cannot be tried under Iraqi law. But guess who gets to decide if what they did falls within their contract - yup, the Contracting Officer within the State Department - not anyone in the Iraqi government. I guess all those purple thumbs really don't mean squat now do they???

Absolutely inexcusable that Bush didn't know this. It's not like its just a couple of folks. There's probably over 50,000 of these mercenaries there.

mimo2005 · 10-01-2007, 09:48 PM

Private army costs us a lot :

Quote:

An unmarried sergeant given Iraq pay and relief from U.S. taxes makes about $83 to $85 a day, given time in service. A married sergeant with children makes about double that, $170 a day.

Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Baghdad overseeing more than 160,000 U.S. troops, makes roughly $180,000 a year, or about $493 a day. That comes out to less than half the fee charged by Blackwater for its senior manager of a 34-man security team.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...093001352.html

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-01-2007, 11:22 PM

I don't think it is unaccpetable for Bush to know that answer. Because of several reasons.

1. It proves hes letting his generals fight this war is what needs to happen.
2. He has other concerns then what poeple in Iraq are governed by.

You guys are honsetly forgetting, do you truly honsetly believe that an American Military Commander would ALLOW his reputatuion to even be slightly ruined by a mistake that a contractor made? I don't think so, I think they'd be toss up on the chopping block the second they could.

Bush was honset, and quite frankly he could of lied to that lady he could of flat out come out with some lie otuta his *** and been like yup thats right thats the answer.

But he didn't and I respect that.

Also, the only reason military is forced to restort to contractors is because it DOES NOT HAVE THE MAN POWER TO FILL THOSE JOB POSITIONS.

If you feel that the military shouldn't be paying contractors that much then walk down tot hat recuirtment officer and say I want in the army, so I can take away a contractors job and save my government some money.

O wait, but you'd have a convient excuse to not do that wouldn't you?

mimo2005 · 10-02-2007, 06:53 PM

Pilot said 'this is fun' before fatal Blackwater crash

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/...ash/index.html

**EnglishPaul** · 10-03-2007, 04:36 AM

I see a bit of a distinction between a contractor who builds a bridge, and one that is equiped like a soldier. There has to be a bottom line, and for me, if a protection role may involve killing someone, then it has to be part of the state whether police or army. That way it sorts out all the issues of pay, accountability, and suchlike.
This view may spring from a country where only the army and a few special police have guns, but simplistically if you give a man a gun he is 100% more likely to shoot someone than if he had no gun. If the situation calls for a level of protection that has to include guns, then the army (or police) provision has to be increased to meet the need.

bry623 · 10-03-2007, 06:32 AM

Tell you what, I bet I could pull some strings and get some of us jobs laying network lines in Baghdad. Would you want some sort of protection.

mimo2005 · 10-03-2007, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

you give a man a gun he is 100% more likely to shoot someone than if he had no gun. .

Hi Paul

Don't give a contractor a gun and he falls into an ambush (you know those al qaeda gangs for instance) he is 100% more likely to die .

Your view and mine are not perfect . What i believe is give him a gun but make sure you oversee what he is doing , then again it is easy to say but hard to put it in real life .

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-03-2007, 02:08 PM

Again around here we got a lot of contractors, some are secuirty some are poeple laying cables, networking, cleaning crews etc.

My IT Admin at my school did tech support for the military 2 years ago, he was former military he refused to step out of the line one day without a rifle. And I don't blame him one bit, contractors need to be armed, the US MILITARY DOES NOT HAVE THE MAN POWER TO GAURD THEM. However they require them,a nd refering to that pilot, i'm sure that flying through mountains and vallies low flying is a lot of fun.

I think their are some bad contractors hwoever the sitution is being blown out of porportion. Everyone is mentioning blackwater, blackwater, blackwater well among us military poeple here the general conseus is that blackwater was one of the better ones, they kept their diplomats and poeple they were gaqurding generally alive.

A friend of mine went to Iraq for a deployment and came back about 4-5 months ago and he had to travel several times around the country. In fact twice by land, both times they were ambushed. First time was with the army, he said they acted cowardly in their actions and making several mistakes.

Second time was with blackwater, they were also ambushed blackwater dealt with the sitution, no mistakes were made, no injuries were sustained for the terrioist on the other hand is a different story.

Poeple to need to lighten up on those contractors who are secuirty contractors they really do, I knew of them in detail YEARS AGO, they aren't a recent development. Hell they are security firms in IRaq ranging from Russian firms, British Firms, German Firms, and even a few Spainish firms. So you brits, and stuff don't think your all innocent same with a lto of other poeple. A LOT OF POEPLE from around the world have flocked to Iraq for the $$$.

mimo2005 · 10-05-2007, 01:35 PM

At the end of the 19th Century, in the blood-red aftermath of the Homestead Strike, Congress passed a law that came to be known as the Anti-Pinkerton Act.
Is Someone violating the Anti-Pinkerton Act ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkert...tective_Agency

Congress is going to step up to the plate to hold these guys accountable:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/wa...hp&oref=slogin

mimo2005 · 10-08-2007, 04:39 PM

Iraqi authorities want the U.S. government to sever all contracts in Iraq with Blackwater USA within six months and pay $8 million in compensation to each of the families of 17 people killed when the firm's guards sprayed a traffic circle with heavy machine gun fire last month.
The demands _ part of an Iraqi government report examined by The Associated Press _ also called on U.S. authorities to hand over the Blackwater security agents involved in the Sept. 16 shootings to face possible trial in Iraqi courts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...kwater-report/

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-09-2007, 08:27 AM

8 million, thats just ludacris.

I'm sorry but 8 million is too mcuh to be giving to those type of poeple. I'm not saying we were better or anything but gas is .15 a gallon over there, I would say a reasonable sum of 500,000 to 750,000 would be far more approiate for this.

Also servering contracts with blackwater within 6 months IMHO is possible and most liekly a justifiable demand.

qbawl · 10-11-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Tell you what, I bet I could pull some strings and get some of us jobs laying network lines in Baghdad. Would you want some sort of protection.

Yeah, the 1st Marine Division!

~~Nik00117~~ · 10-11-2007, 04:21 AM

I'd take some blackwater contractors just as quickyl.

**EnglishPaul** · 10-14-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik00117

I'd take some blackwater contractors just as quickyl.

Yeah, but you would not be the one who suffers if they are undisciplined and triggerhappy.

Iraq would be a very safe place for contractors if every last man, woman and child of the population was annihilated! But that would be to do what ought never to be done. And perhaps Blackwater ought not to be doing some of the things they do.

Incidentally, remind me again why it is our contractors doing these lucrative contracts, and not local people doing it under contract?

10-01-2007, 02:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Bush being honest http://youtube.com/watch?v=V5xT1DGJMoQ This is what I call honsety right there, here said that he simply does not know and he will work to find out. That is brilliant you can ask me many questions and many of them I will not know. I won';t lie to either O and just to answer your question, contracters do have a set of regulations and protocols which they follow. All laws within a nation which they operate in APPLY to them All international treaties also APPLY to them. It is expected of the nations secuirty forces to enforce thsoe with contractors in Iraq's case the US military handles that. Their is also a series of protocols and produces which contractoers follow in Iraq, if engaged they are premittied to take defneisve actions to protect themsevles, or cargo. They are then to contact the US military and inform them about whats happening and request support. I was reading a report in the starts and stripes about a incident and basically what happened was a car was traveling towards a high profile convoy, this is a convoy where everyone knows who you are, and what your packing well they asked for the car to stop it didn't they shot the car killing the driver. What do I have to say to this? well car should of stopped this is a war zone. I know a few secuirty contractors, one was very open and honset with me, and he said several times they did kill inconent civilians or they jsut got caught up int he cross fire. However he then made it very clear that most of the time the poeple they killed intend to do bodily harm to them.

10-01-2007, 04:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 496 OS: Windows XP	Re: Bush being honset Yes, he is honestly a moron. That's interesting what you mention about the contractors being subject to international treaties and law, I had not heard that. The media isn't exactly covering this issue like a blanket and the left's media is making it sound like they are all running around killing indiscriminately. Personally I think the whole thing is blown out of proportion. Also it is ridiculous to call the government hiring people to work for it "privatization". The government hires contractors to build roads, yet you never hear people whining about road construction being privatized. NASA also has a hugely disproportionate amount of people directly employed by the State vs. contractors.

10-01-2007, 11:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Bush being honest I don't think it is unaccpetable for Bush to know that answer. Because of several reasons. 1. It proves hes letting his generals fight this war is what needs to happen. 2. He has other concerns then what poeple in Iraq are governed by. You guys are honsetly forgetting, do you truly honsetly believe that an American Military Commander would ALLOW his reputatuion to even be slightly ruined by a mistake that a contractor made? I don't think so, I think they'd be toss up on the chopping block the second they could. Bush was honset, and quite frankly he could of lied to that lady he could of flat out come out with some lie otuta his *** and been like yup thats right thats the answer. But he didn't and I respect that. Also, the only reason military is forced to restort to contractors is because it DOES NOT HAVE THE MAN POWER TO FILL THOSE JOB POSITIONS. If you feel that the military shouldn't be paying contractors that much then walk down tot hat recuirtment officer and say I want in the army, so I can take away a contractors job and save my government some money. O wait, but you'd have a convient excuse to not do that wouldn't you? Last edited by Nik00117; 10-01-2007 at 11:28 PM.

10-02-2007, 06:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, Emeritus Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11,142 OS: xp	Re: Bush being honest Pilot said 'this is fun' before fatal Blackwater crash http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/...ash/index.html __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

10-03-2007, 04:36 AM	#7 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 1,314 OS: XP SP2 Blog Entries: 9	Re: Bush being honest I see a bit of a distinction between a contractor who builds a bridge, and one that is equiped like a soldier. There has to be a bottom line, and for me, if a protection role may involve killing someone, then it has to be part of the state whether police or army. That way it sorts out all the issues of pay, accountability, and suchlike. This view may spring from a country where only the army and a few special police have guns, but simplistically if you give a man a gun he is 100% more likely to shoot someone than if he had no gun. If the situation calls for a level of protection that has to include guns, then the army (or police) provision has to be increased to meet the need.

10-03-2007, 06:32 AM	#8 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,706 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Bush being honest Tell you what, I bet I could pull some strings and get some of us jobs laying network lines in Baghdad. Would you want some sort of protection. __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"

10-03-2007, 02:08 PM	#10 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Bush being honest Again around here we got a lot of contractors, some are secuirty some are poeple laying cables, networking, cleaning crews etc. My IT Admin at my school did tech support for the military 2 years ago, he was former military he refused to step out of the line one day without a rifle. And I don't blame him one bit, contractors need to be armed, the US MILITARY DOES NOT HAVE THE MAN POWER TO GAURD THEM. However they require them,a nd refering to that pilot, i'm sure that flying through mountains and vallies low flying is a lot of fun. I think their are some bad contractors hwoever the sitution is being blown out of porportion. Everyone is mentioning blackwater, blackwater, blackwater well among us military poeple here the general conseus is that blackwater was one of the better ones, they kept their diplomats and poeple they were gaqurding generally alive. A friend of mine went to Iraq for a deployment and came back about 4-5 months ago and he had to travel several times around the country. In fact twice by land, both times they were ambushed. First time was with the army, he said they acted cowardly in their actions and making several mistakes. Second time was with blackwater, they were also ambushed blackwater dealt with the sitution, no mistakes were made, no injuries were sustained for the terrioist on the other hand is a different story. Poeple to need to lighten up on those contractors who are secuirty contractors they really do, I knew of them in detail YEARS AGO, they aren't a recent development. Hell they are security firms in IRaq ranging from Russian firms, British Firms, German Firms, and even a few Spainish firms. So you brits, and stuff don't think your all innocent same with a lto of other poeple. A LOT OF POEPLE from around the world have flocked to Iraq for the $$$.

10-05-2007, 01:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, Emeritus Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11,142 OS: xp	Re: Bush being honest At the end of the 19th Century, in the blood-red aftermath of the Homestead Strike, Congress passed a law that came to be known as the Anti-Pinkerton Act. Is Someone violating the Anti-Pinkerton Act ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkert...tective_Agency Congress is going to step up to the plate to hold these guys accountable: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/wa...hp&oref=slogin __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo" Last edited by mimo2005; 10-05-2007 at 01:39 PM.

10-08-2007, 04:39 PM	#12 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, Emeritus Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 11,142 OS: xp	Re: Bush being honest Iraqi authorities want the U.S. government to sever all contracts in Iraq with Blackwater USA within six months and pay $8 million in compensation to each of the families of 17 people killed when the firm's guards sprayed a traffic circle with heavy machine gun fire last month. The demands _ part of an Iraqi government report examined by The Associated Press _ also called on U.S. authorities to hand over the Blackwater security agents involved in the Sept. 16 shootings to face possible trial in Iraqi courts. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-w...kwater-report/ __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

10-09-2007, 08:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Bush being honest 8 million, thats just ludacris. I'm sorry but 8 million is too mcuh to be giving to those type of poeple. I'm not saying we were better or anything but gas is .15 a gallon over there, I would say a reasonable sum of 500,000 to 750,000 would be far more approiate for this. Also servering contracts with blackwater within 6 months IMHO is possible and most liekly a justifiable demand.

10-11-2007, 04:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Bush being honest I'd take some blackwater contractors just as quickyl.