bry623

I will probably only catch the first 60 minutes.

cstr20cstr

I'm not sure I'll watch it. I didn't see the Bush-bashing forum, oops, I meant the democratic debate either.

bry623

The funny thing is that the Dems are all running against Bush while the GOP seems to be running from Bush.

40sondacurb

I don't have cable, what channel is it?

bry623

(p)msnbc

95five-0

That tells you about the media I never even knew it was on.

bry623

zzzzzzzzzzzz

ImSoRingoStarr

They are way too conservative, "double guantanamo"?

Drew1369

?what are you talking about starr?

RedScott

He's talking about Mitt Romney gleefully stating he would double the size of Gitmo. Some how he confused this police state mentality with "conservatism," which used to be considered limited government. But seeing as the NeoCons have taken over, and we all know they are "conservative" (wink, wink) the very definition of the word appears to have changed.

Sad state of affairs in Rupublicanland.

Drew1369

So... its a POW camp... what do you want?

RedScott

Oh, it's a POW camp now? That's not what it was when Bush 1 and Clinton were using it. And if it's a POW camp why aren't they following the Geneva Convention? And why are they holding non-combatants? It's nothing more than internment camp off shore so the government can pretend rights don't apply. Something like 80% of the people being held their aren't even suspected terrorists. Many are there just because someone was paid a large sum of money to report a "suspected" terrorist. They're held with no evidence and no trial.

What do I want? I want a small government that is in place to protect the natural rights of individuals. Kinda like the idea this country was supposedly founded on.

newhouse1390

You are talking about giving terrorists the right to a fair trial, there are men and women that have died to keep our constitution together. Terrorists are not entitled to the same right to a fair speedy trial as we are, nor should they be.

Call GITMO what you want, it is important to our nations defense to have military bases around the world, including Cuba. I have no problems sending POW's there, in fact I would rather them be there.

yustr

OK - It's a Gulag, in the grandest Soviet sense.

A place for political prisoners to disappear. Where no one is held accountable for whatever level of mistreatment the Supreme Soviet, oops I mean the President - deems "necessary." Where the facts are not considered relevant. Where the idea that these poor bastards might have important information was a facade (the evidence that was collected along with them was not even given a cursory look for three years).

I'll call it the place where American values went to die. Where our standing as the defender of freedom was buried. Where the sacrifice of the innumerable thousands of brave soldiers who died securing the freedom of others was trampled by a few zealots. Where the rule of law, so firmly establish over 250 years, lost it's foothold and stumbled, yet again, over racism. Where fear triumphed over reason.

I call it a sad sad era that needs to be left to the annals of history to determine if its a low point or if it's the start of the long slow decline toward American irrelevance.

Drew1369

Until you been there Yustr... don't believe all the news reports you read...

newhouse1390

It is a prison facility not a death camp.

RedScott

GULAG is a good word for it actually as they were not death camps either.

No, instead believe the reports of the administration that has lied at every chance it had. Come on now, brother.

Have you been there?

Gitmo is made up of less than 20% SUSPECTED Al-Queda members, and many of those suspects have little to literally NO evidence to support their internment. Many of them are held on tips from paid informants who simply told lies to get rid of enemies and make a buck.

This American Life did an excellent show on Gitmo, and before some of you go off defending the place I would recommend at least giving this a listen.

newhouse1390

Where do you get this information???

Enemey combantants, terrorists, POW's. They are there for a reason, because they have been determined by our military heros that they should be prisioned because they are a disruption to peace. I trust our miliarys judgement, after all they are the ones carrying out this operation.

Again, these prisoners are not entitled to the rights that are in our constitution...they are NOT American!

Drew1369

yes

mikeber

1) Calling Guantanamo a Gulag misses the point. Gulags were FORCED LABOR CAMPS where people died mostly from extreme conditions: cold, malnutrition, disease and exhaustion. Guantanamo is nothing like that.
2) For those who claim that less then 20% are suspected Al-Queda members, where did you get this ridiculous figure from??? Maybe it is 22% ? In any case all these figures are nonsense. Why would the US bother with so many people if they do not pose a threat? Did any of those criticizing the US considered how difficult, costly and complicated operating this enterprise is?
3) With that being said, Guantanamo costs the US far more then we benefit from it. The US image was so damaged, that it overshadows all our aid and the help we offer to other countries. The disproportionate amount and money and resources wasted on this place are also enormous.
4) Lets look at it from the point of view of people from other places: basically it is kidnapping other countries' citizens and holding them against their will in a third country without trail, even without being charged formally. They are neither prisoners of war, nor criminals. What would the US do, if one day China abducts a US citizen and this person is held without charge in a place like Tibet? And the only allegation is that he is a terrorist and was plotting against China. (This scenario is not as far from reality as it sounds. China almost did that).
5) Thus, considering all factors, shutting down Guantanamo is in the best interest of the US and sooner the better...