ianjefferys

As an old aussie (74) I've seen a lot of what the US has done and how it did it (in the world scene).
It appears that the average american is a really nice guy (I've been there!).. like us aussies .. but your system (which you have been brainwashed from birth to believe is a perfect "democracy") is so flawed as to allow your government(s) to be elected by a huge minority and allowed to perform immoral acts on both yourselves and the world at large.
The ploy used by your many regimes that they are spreading democracy and saving the rest of the world from themselves has been swallowed by yo'all for so long that the prospect of stopping these "actions" seems like a dereliction of duty!
It is unfortunate that you have now passed the watershed point when stopping would have saved your collectives asses. It seems patently obvious that China will assume the mantle of leader of the world economy within a decade or so and that India is not far behind. The european community would have had a chance to be up there had they not been a set of tribal states who will never agree.
The US, like the Rpman Empire, has had it's day, overstretched itself and gone rotten from the inside.
The important things that yo'all should do at this stage is to reconcile yourselves to your newly acquired fate and begin reworking your convoluted and corrupted system so that in the future your government is elected in such a way as to preclude repeat performances ad infinitum!
Compulsory voting for one!
Stop wasting time and money when you elect a figurehead by "the people"... it's just a battle of the media and PR specialists and covert spying on the competition to dig up dirt! Let only the elected people vote... That will save billions of dollars and achieve a similar result! And will probably reduce the tendency for the richest people with the most "contacts" to get in as President! That reduces one problem which is fuelling your misdirection.
It would be wonderful to hear an american NOT assert that they won the WW2 1941 - 45 (1939 -45)!!! and that the rest of the world is therefore obliged for eternity to accept any ruling of the US as something handed down by an indisputable power to which we must acquiese!
Am I sounding a little biassed?
Well I suppose that the problem is that I wasn't brought up as an american and I am a "watcher from afar".
Am I republican or Democrat?
Neither! I am a person who, not long to go on this world, would like to see everyone getting along fine without the barstards at the top using them to achieve their own disguised ends... and that applies to all nations!
Am I a Pacifist? NO.. there can never be world peace.. we are humans and among us will always be those seeking power and riches and all those things that are our democratic right to chase!
But we can make our lives a little better by looking beyond our local scenes and our own nations...use a little empathy and see what we can do without destroying ourselves! The rewards are worth it ..
Good Luck in the coming years.. Get used to what the US will become as it will be a long time before you rise to the same stature again!
respectfully,
Ian the old aussie fart!
Now I'll go and sit on the patio and look over my valley and have a cup of tea!

Tumbleweed36

Hi,

Well, at least you titled this thing correctly. It certainly is an OPINION, and not based upon FACT. Might be if you did spend more time in the States you would know enough about us and our system to separate opinion from fact. Unfortunately, this rant is a bunch of balderdash with no merit. It is however replete with empty, false, and biased opinions from someone who admits he does not and has not spent a great deal of time in this country.

Now, I will go out in my screen house in the middle of my 8 1/2 acre woods and look out over my shimmering pond with the moonlight. I would't trade this country for all the other countries in the world. I am proud to be an American. C,y'all.

ianjefferys

Thankyou for your time and the effort taken away from your 3 hectare block. I notice you have not commented based on your personal overseas experiences but I am happy that one american still has an opinion. I am sad to see that your attitude bodes ill regarding the future of your nation . It is sad to think that such a wonderful group of people are retarded in their forward growth by such insular and inflexible reactions to honest comment.
I have travelled worldwide and frequently, seeing and experiencing various nations and cultures, I backpacked with my wife through southern china when we were both over 60.
I consider myself able to stand back and be self critical also. Australia has various weaknesses but one of them is not self aggrandisment. I have been corresponding regularly with americans of most ages (but mostly adults) and can see thew old adage being true regarding your national blindspots. "give me a child until he is seven and you can have him from then on because he is mine!" (a quote from a priest in a boy's home).
You can't see the forest because of the leaves! The american public, and I know several hundred from meetings whilst living in the US, is, on average, a great set of people. Your problem is that you haven't got the ability to look at yourselves!
Combine that with the FACT that when I introduced myself as being fro australia about 25% of the persons addressed asked whether it was good living next to germany and the rest ( bar about 10%) said they must visit one day .. "Are there still any Kangaroos left? I hear they have shot them all out!"worldliness is not a great attribute of those I met.
That being said I think you should put this "opinion" in your favourites box and read it again in ten years!
I shall probably not be around to accept your apology but I am confident enough to predict your thoughts.
Of course you reject my hypothesis ... This is the sum total of what I am projecting!
Your attitude of accrediting others who are putting forward a polite but weighted arguement regarding the future of the US with no knowledge of "the facts" or "the truth" is the same as exhibited by the Terrorists or the religious zealots who refuse to even consider that there could be another approach to heaven etc.
Please try to forget what you have been indoctrinated with and consider what the other 80% of the world think.
I note with a wry smile that the makers of the SUPERMAN film has censored the "american way of life" from their summation of superman's ideals!
I suppose money does talk after all! It will increase the viewability in the rest of the world!
regards,
Ian the relaxed and happy aussie who HAS been there and done most things!
I must also say that I am apologetic regarding anything possibly personally offensive to you. I would like to think I would deny anyone the right to free speech and opinions!

40sondacurb

One major major flaw i do notice is that the American people have little say or care over our foreign policy until Americans start dieing from it, that needs to change.

We are not a democracy BTW, we are a republic that has been playing make believe for 230 years, and while the system of points that determines our leader has its flaws it also has some benefits.

For instance each state being only alloted a set number of points prevents fraud from corrupting the results to an extent and it ensures that the smaller states in the Union get a fair say. There was some fraud down in Florida, and we paid dearly for it, but one slip up does not render the electoral college obsolete just yet.

Fox

Tumbleweed, I don't mean to be rude but what you wrote is one of the most childish things I have ever read. You love our country so much, so why can't you admit that it has its faults?

And cut the gloating... just because you have 8 acres of land doesn't make you better than anyone else. Jeez, you're like the kid who locks himself into his treehouse an proclaims himself king.

ianjefferys

Nice to read your comment. I must admit that the sum total of your election process seems cumbersome but then we don't have over 50 states to concern ourselves with!
It seems possible that it would simplify the whole if the election of a president was disposed with.
Just leave it to a vote from all your elected members!
I am just concerned that the system currently favours the election of the richest best connected person with the best PR man (person). This leads to people like the present apology being elected and when you combine that with a trumped up ruling regarding eligable vote/voters ... well... the body count speaks volumes!
I was distressed to see how glibly the WMD issue was "overlooked" and even the bodycount is praised as a measure of american soldiers' patriotism!
It's wonderful what can be sold when you control the media in various ways!
But my point is not that THIS president or THIS government is bad so much as the system is imploding! The need for objective revision which is NOT based on the manipulation of the constitution by "the powers" is paramount. It should happen yesterday! A complete rewrite with as broad a base of consultation as is possible. AND the introduction of compulsory voting so the non-voting idiots can be compelled to actually get off their collective butts and have a say in america's future.
It's not good enough to say they have the right not to vote..... one would find they would choose to voice an opinion at the ballot box IF they had the alternative of paying $200 fines etc.
And I do agree that the US is a Republic...BUT do you hear the president spouting off about HIS duty to spread democracy among the world!!?
You betcha!
So who's right and who's b...sh...ing??
I just had a post to a recently widowed lady in Kansas who said if she had the money and the guts she would shoot "the barstard" who sent him over there!
I will be amazed to see a republican president re-elected!
But the problem is that the new bloke needs to do things to put the US back on track that will be so unpopular that he will be tossed out at the next election along with his party. He will be in theproverbial cleft stick! To recover losy ground both inside and outside the US he needs to do things which will hurt all voters and he will be easy prey of the opposition with media contacts! He will be dead in the water before he starts IF he does the "right things"!
So what to do? tread a middle ground hoping for a realisation by the swinging voters that he really IS working for them and the US and hope the party gets a dsecond and third try!
Now let me talk reality!
It's not going to happen! The average citzen (notice I didn't say voter!) really doesn't analyse or investigate truths They read their peer newspapers and watch the chosen TV..and believe it all!!
So It's the system that wins again... Money and media control..and..god bless'em.. the religious backers!
Y'all have a long road back and I'm afraid your run has been left too late! As Doc Patterson says (in "desperados") "See you in hell pardner!"
Of course you could all try to emigrate to australia but forunately very few know where we are!! :-)
regards,
love talikng to you all.
Ian the smiling aussie.
PS I really meant I didn't ever want to take away the rights to free speech in the last post!

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Tumbleweed36

My dear friend Fox,

I think if you read what I said you will have a different take on my statement. What the gentleman has written is simply another liberal spin on everything that is wrong with our country. His statements sound like they are right out of the Democrat's talking points of the Eastern liberal media and surely out of the New York Times newspaper. From his statements, he could even be a writer for the greatest "traitor" newspaper in the country. He would fit right in with the other un-American NYT writers.

Sure, we have problems (lots of them) and I admit that. However, I don't need a liberal viewpoint of someone who has "simply visited a short time and communicated with people from our country to tell me everything that is wrong with our country. He did not even know we are a Republic and not a pure democracy as pointed out by 40. I could go on and on, but won't to keep this from being a pitching match between (his and your) obvious "disdain" for our system of government vs. someone who sees much "good" in our government among the problems that we need to work on.

Second however, I find it very interesting that you criticize me for talking about going out on my land and enjoying the "moonlight" over my pond, when you did not criticize the gentleman for going out to have his "tea" and look over "his" valley. Seems like you have a double standard and that comparison alone shows me something about your criticism of my statements. You don't have to be proud to be an American my friend, but I sure am.


C y'all.

yustr

Ian,

You are not alone in your concern for the future of America. And you are not alone in your observation that Americans do not have a self view that is anywhere near in focus. To many have come to accept that a full belly equates to a “good” life. Of course, by “good” they are referring to being comfortably (numb) while I’m referring to living a connected, moral, ethical life.

I have 2 children and (hopefully not too soon) I’ll have grandchildren. I worry about what their lives will include. Will they have hope that their dreams may one day be fulfilled? Or will they live in trepidation of each new day?

Your observations on our myopic egocentric view are shared by some of us. Ask nearly any American where we rank on quality of life measures (education, health, poverty, pollution, etc.) and I’d bet that you’ll hear that we’re near the best. The reality is something else altogether and is typically and sadly not of much concern. After all we are now a “faith based” country where facts cannot be allowed to challenge opinion.

I have lived in other countries. I have seen the longing for opportunity in the faces of third world peoples; opportunity that we have a-plenty but are squandering, recklessly and shamefully.

Regarding you observation of our political system, I have said before that if a third world country ran their government as we have allowed ours to be run, we would (rightly) withhold aid “until the corruption was rooted out”. Our Congress currently has approval ratings in the low 30%. Meaning there is little confidence in any of them. But come November, we will send 96% of the bastards back. Former Speaker of the House, Tip O’Neal said that “all politics are local” and that is how the sheep vote.

I disagree with you about compulsorily voting. But I do think there needs to be some type of compulsory involvement for those who do vote. I wish I knew of a way to ensure that each voter were educated on the issues and candidates before they enter the ballot box. But that might interfere with the message the PR firms want us to hear.

There are good people here. We are a generous, caring, nurturing people. That said, I have not feared more for “Truth, Justice and the American Way” than I do now. The solutions, if there are any, are not easy or quick. But they start with gaining some perspective on who we really are and where we really reside in the grand order of things. And somehow making sure that that goodness becomes evident in our dealing with ourselves and the rest of the world.

crazijoe

How true this is.
Here in Nebraska, this November we are having our elections and there is a name, running for senator, on the ballot that is new and not well known. He won the primary. How? He contributed 1.5 million dollars of his own money for the campaign to get his name out there.
I only wish people would quit voting for somebody because they heard his name.
I also wish people would quit thinking that you have to vote for a Republican because you are a Republican. Or you have to vote for a Democrat beacuse your are a Democrat. Or you have to vote either Republican or Democrat.

Sometimes I don't think my vote counts. The only reason why I vote is so I can express my opinion about who is in office.

Fox

Tumbleweed,

I didn't criticize him because when you itemized your wealth, you turned that part of the thread into a pissing contest. That's not what this is about, and you know it.

Look at how militant you are in defending the U.S.! It's insane how much faith you put into a system that fails us almost every election. As if it couldn't change for the better?

Let me ask you something. Have you ever been overseas on anything other than a vacation or business?

Wozer

Hear, hear!!!...I'm an american and I have no problem saying 'IT SUCKS (unless your super rich)'...saying anything beyond that (aka justification of my views) would certainly result in being flamed...

ianjefferys

I am very impressed with the intelligence and feelings expressed by all the posters to date.
Not because they agree with the main thrust of my dissertation but because they indicate that all is not lost in the US. I remember posting to a Moldovan pair who were active on their website. I tried to get explanations of why they hated athe arussins and why they were prepared to shoot to kill etc.
The diatribes that they hit me with were similarly toned to the overly zealous patriotism of our friend here.
I was told to "go F..k your mother" and variously apply my sexual organs to various parts of various animals etc etc ad nauseum!
They had no reasons to hate that they could espouse...they just had been taught that this was normality and that this made them happy!
On the same lines I asked whether they saw themselves as terrorists or radical zealots.
They rejected that out of hand!
It is possible to be exposed to "educational" indoctrination on a parental ansd peer group basis on a barely recognisable level to the point where such beliefs are "normal" and comforting and anything else is undesirable or satanic etc etc.
I saw so much of this style of approach to Bush's election that it made me despair.. especially when the obvious section that actually elected bush was the religious section!
Now.. to deal with other issues..
I thought that my attitudes had been made quite plain insofar as I feel that it is NOT your two parties that are destroying your country... BOTH parties "use" the system, not to promote and benefit "the people" so much as to ensure they get re-elected!
And incorporated in this overall scheme they just happen to do some things which are actually good!
But the current administration which professes very loudly that they are progrssing the spread of democracy throughout the world (thus saying "we are a democracy") is actually epitomising the takeover style of the Roman Empire... when they really just want to control the resources!!
I'm sorry that my little aside about having my cuppa upset anyone... I was merely saying that I am not an agro person and live a relaxed and pleasant lifestyle.
What I didn't say was that a very clever chinaman gypped me out of all the money I had accued in business for forty years and I now live on the government old age pension on the seven acres my wife and I slogged to purchase in our last days of employment (I had always owned businesses).
So I've been there and done that! I know what it's like to be rich and I also know being poor.
I have also benefitted by world travel and seing the reality of other countries and cultures. I love the american people...they are warm, friendly and so like aussies it's like being at home.
In fact ....VERY similar.... we also have one eyed tunnel-visioned persons who would rather die than break the mould inside which they exist!
I really wish you well.. the future is uncontrollably downwards for y'all but not "bad" as such...just not the same as before...either china or India or the EU will control the world's path.
Some won't even notice the change and will live their lives happily in their little corner but others who are more aware of world wide events and the reality of what is happening will be sad to see the once mighty power of the US slipping away just because the system didn't have the checks and balances to stop it.
Good to se some intelligent posts.
regards,
Ian the ambivalent aussie

ianjefferys

I have just been "talking" to an old guy who runs a bookshop in Washington DC. I was asking what was the attitude to the current regime in his city.
He said that was an unfair question as the city is dependent on the govt... But a very interesting comment arose! ... He said that he had conducted a long sut accurate survey of buying habits for foreigners and visitors to see what and why they bought!
The one fact that came out over a personal survey of hundreds of clients was that these people actually spent more money and bought more if he apologised to them for Bush being president!
I had to smile... this bloke is no fool... very well educated and middle of the road politics... his comments are always impartial and positive. And here he has uncovered a positive indicator as to the rest of the world's attitude to "the President"!!!
Anyway...I thought it was good for a wry smile!
Ian the laidback aussie

40sondacurb

to ianjefferys: I thought my username was funny when I made it and I still do. Where did I get the name? Some people have a tradition to pour a 40oz on the curb when someone dies before their time, and it was the anniversary of Tupac's death so they showed some people doing it on the news, hence 40s-on-da-curb.

Tumbleweed36

[quote=Fox]

Tumbleweed,

I didn't criticize him because when you itemized your wealth, you turned that part of the thread into a pissing contest. That's not what this is about, and you know it.

You, Mr. Fox, know that the statement you just made is a bunch of crap. I can't even believe you would say that and try to cover up your obvious bias. He has seven acres and is out looking over "his" valley, and I have eight acres and am looking at the moonlight over "my" pond. You give him a pass and attack me.

Your response and personal attack on me was because you supported his liberal bashing our government and the way it works. Your attack was a plain and simple example of your trying to find an excuse to bash someone who you believe is a country bumpkin (being from the Midwest), but who is not. You made it very clear that you are biased because you did not give me the same courtesy that you gave our liberal friend from Australia.

Look at how militant you are in defending the U.S.! It's insane how much faith you put into a system that fails us almost every election. As if it couldn't change for the better?

Fails us every election??? Fox, the people you support LOST the last two elections. Even the very liberal New York Times counted the Florida votes in the year 2000, and they even had to admit George Bush WON! I hate to tell you, they counted more than one time also. Get over it, you lost and your liberal friends are not in power anymore. Too bad that you think when your liberal friends lose, that the election fails. Hey, the system worked. Liberals got voted out all over the country and that is what should have happened. Sorry to ruin your day.

I won't go into my life's history, but you need to know that YES, I have lived outside this country for a considerable amount of time in more than one place in this vast world. However, unlike my Aussie friend or you, I won't spin that I know more about how their country should run than the people who have lived there the majority of their lives.

A couple of things I would like to know before I put this thread away for good: (Put your best balderdash forward, I won't be responding)

How many Representatives have you talked to about the system that you feel is failing?

How many Senators have you contacted to give them your ideas about how to improve our system?

Are we to assume that you have contacted the Governor of your state to express your disappointment in the election process in your state?

How many times have you served on your local election board to oversee an election? (I have multiple times, and would bet Bry has)

What political office have you run for in order to improve what you think is a broken system?

How many groups have you gotten together in order to form an action committee to fix an election that "you perceive" as broken?

Are you just being critical, carping, and attacking others and our system of government, or do you have any solutions? Maybe you might even be part of the problem????

What are you now doing to improve what you perceive as a "broken" system?

Fox, my friend (I won't personally attack you like you did me), this could go on and on to no avail. I hope you have a great evening. Best wishes to both you and our liberal Aussie friend.



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Fox

Ha. That's really funny. When did I ever personally attack you? It was criticism, not a personal attack. Every response you've given thus far has been limited to "well, that's opinion"; "balterdash [sic]"; "no merit", etc. I naturally tend to call people on their BS when it's staring me in the face.

And as to his seven acres? I didn't even know about that until after you started your wealth contest with him. I assumed he just happened to live next to a valley that he was attached to. It was you who took it upon yourself to take it to the next level of one-upmanship.

And last, and most importantly of all, I am NOT a liberal, or a democrat. I don't know where republicans get off assuming that anyone who opposes their leaders and ideologies is a liberal. My beliefs are libertarian and have been for as long as I've held political beliefs.

And as to my partitipation in politics in general, I haven't because I haven't had the option to. I turned 18 last november. Rest assured that this will change.

I'm perfectly happy to end this right now if you feel everything's been laid out, and you'll be happy to know that you haven't ruined my day in the least.

ianjefferys

I rea;;y enjoy getting out into the world and "meeting" yo'all, seeing the various human faces of a cross section of americans.
I'm afraid that it will be the last we will se of our radical republican friend. It is reasonably typical that someone who faces inevitable flaming will retreat into silence with a parting unanswerable flush of aggression and pseudo factual statements.
This is not a fault so much as a human trait.
He is probably quite a nice guy to talk to face to face so long as politics is not mentioned.
I will dwell slightly on compulory voting as a subject though.
As an ex boss/owner I used to look critically at union activities and noted that at meetings the whole meetings were controlled by the radical (in the nicest possible terms) members who participated to the fullest extent. These "voters" shouted and screamed applause and when a vote arose they would get to their feet and glare around at all and sundry to check who voted against the issue... (obvious implications) The sheep in the crowd used to slowly raise their hands and the opponents would usually abstain rather than face the resulting music! Only the very brave or the foolish would vote against the "crowd" of leaders.
So we brought in secret ballots... I think it was a world first! And the unions screamed blue murder! But slowly sanity returned (in part) and most unions now are controlled more subtley.
Now.... coming to compulsory voting!
Forget that you are a "republic" and can thus claim different rules!
We are talking about democracy! The majority rules.. For the greater good! Everyone has the right to representation etc etc..
If we see that unlicensed drivers are a danger to all we bring in a law to ensure that every driver is licensed. Even though the rules vary state by state.
If we can see that non voters are actually doing long term harm to both themselves and others by not ensuring that a true majority is governing the country but merely the small percentage who is enthused enough by the propaganda and hype of the richest and best connected to get off their butts and vote...then it is up to THE SYSTEM to regulate the people into voting and getting a truer picture of the real majority opinions. For sure there will always be the stupid blinkered indoctrinated voters and the informal cross makers etc...but if a potential voter knows he has to vote he will look and listen enough to be able to state what he wants! THEN, and only then, will you have a real democracy! As good as humans will permit.
Nothings perfect but it is at least better than about 16% of the potential voters actually putting in place the government that will rule the other 84% for the next term!
It works well her and elsewhere and if it wasn't for this peculiar thing americans have about their own version of freedom I feel america would be have a truer representation of the will of ALL their people!
Amen and bye for now!
Look forward to more "exchanges" of ideas.
regards,
Ian the old aussie voter (who votes right wing!!!!! ... how's that for a laugh! But right in australia is a fair way lefter than america!)

ianjefferys

I see that a pic I sent actually did get up. I therefore will see if I can get a few more on so you can see the faces of me and my wife... we are quite harmless and welcome emails!
Ian and Gundula (an old german name where she came from)
The first is gundula welcoming you to our table and the second is a recent local daytrip to a dam some eighty miles away!

40sondacurb

this thread is getting offtopic, personal, and heated so I would just like to say one thing before this thread is inevitably closed that kind of spoils it:

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one.

^spoiler


eloquent and true.

yustr

The thread will remain open. Both Fox and Tumble have been around long enough to know when to take the deep relaxing breath that bry623 so wisely suggests.

But please let's get back on topic.

Thanks,