Minimum Wage

bry623 · 07-10-2006, 08:56 AM

Should they raise it? In Ohio, they are thinking of moving it from $5.15/hr to $6.85/hr (my first job paid $3.35/hr min wage).

Sure, it would be nice if lower income folks could get a boost in their incomes, but I wonder if that will translate into increased costs for products and services.

My other argument is that this may set people up to only achieve the minimum.

yustr · 07-10-2006, 09:40 AM

Do the math: $5.15/hr x 40 hrs/wk = $206/wk (minus taxes & SS - sure you'll get income tax back in April but they still take it out.)

Who thinks anyone can live on less than $200 a week?

The minimum wage should be at least enough to get someone over the official "Poverty" threshold. Last year that number was $16,090 for a family of 3. So if you work 2000 hrs/yr you'd have to make $8.05.

Will it translate into higher costs? What's the cost of our welfare system? What's the cost of our prison system?

Though often misquoted, George Bernard Shaw actually said:

Quote:

Lack of money is the root of all evil.

Zazula · 07-10-2006, 10:01 AM

1. $5.15/hr pre-tax&ss is very low by European standards. A superpower has to maintain internal stability by sustaining a decent living standard to the widest spectrum of their population - otherwise it collapses from the internal. I know turbocapitalists do not understand how the Scandinavian model works so well; but it does anyhow.

2. The mimimum wage is not supposed to be well above the official poverty level, though - at least in statistical/census terminology.

3. A higher minimum wage does not praise mediocrity - people's attitudes do. And the system can reduce or boost this kind of attitudes - luckily or unfortunately; it depends what is deemed normal in a specific society.

4. The lack of money is indeed the root of all evil...

95five-0 · 07-10-2006, 10:13 AM

I have a few opinons on minimum wage. First is nobody is forcing these individuals to be working for minimum wage. That is the great thing about america. Go get yourself an education and get a better job. Second it has been shown before that when minimum wage gets raised jobs get cut. IE since employers have to pay people more they tend to hire less people. So some will make more but more will make none.

Zazula · 07-10-2006, 12:19 PM

1. Minimum wage employment is not a requirement posed by education-challenged individuals, but rather by companies that need cheap labor to maintain an acceptable bottom line (and may be to compensate for poor management, corporate greed and/or "bribes"). For heaven's sake, who employs the people that cross illegally the borders from Mexico? Who outsources production to China and to countries that allow child labor? Moreover, if one is education-challenged, that doesn't in any way mean this individual is deterministically doomed to poverty and minimum wage. And this is what is really, truly great about America - everyone is given an opportunity, and many people have well succeeded without an extensive formal education.

2. As 95five-0 accurately stated, when the minimum wage is raised, then job cuts follow - especially in the States were there's no employment protectionism / restrictionism (e.g. in Greece no company can fire more than 2% of their working force). So, this is a pure free-market call for all companies to straighten up their efficiency - no more "free lunch" for the employers; they cannot count on having hordes of staff at a low cost. They have to optimize their efficiency, to focus way beyond simple effectiveness... And since I am a fervent supporter of Free Economy, this is the way to go. Not all fingers are created equal; and for a reason. So, this is the time for the best / most appropriate to shine - both for employees as well as for employers. No more loafers, no more companies with unacceptable products / services. An increase in minimum wage is also a strong motivation for people to move away from mediocrity; otherwise they'll simply loose their jobs.

3. The job cuts represent also the reason why the prices won't go up when the minimum wage is raised. The prices are determined by the offer and demand relationship; and this is not affected. So, the companies restructure and fire people, in order to be able to keep their cost at the same level - they don't keep their staff and then sell at a higher price... Also, the fact that some people get paid more does not affect inflation, because there are also the people who are paid less (underemployed) or not paid at all. And who on earth said that the problem lies in the below-the-poverty-line families? The real democracy-threatening problem lies in the impoverished, nouveau-pauvre middle class, who own nothing but a mortgage, an equity loan and a dozen credit-card debts...

4. However, if all these are to follow, then a strong shock to the societal cohesive web is also due. What to do? Invest in education, social support, infrastructure for all. Where did the "of the people, by the people, for the people" go? Who wants "a country of idiots with nukes", as was the topic of an older tsf thread? Study History, my friends. When the society gets broken apart because there are more and more people who can't pass by in a decent way, then very soon thereafter, an awfully totalitarian regime follows, having exploited the people's frustration and their despise for politics, thus steering them away from a healty-operating political system. This is exactly why the lack of money is indeed the root of all evil...

dai · 07-10-2006, 01:05 PM

that amount is ridiculous,anyone earning that amount an hour is not living,only barely existing
when it comes to wages here our prime minister is like a lift attendant,the only thing he knows is
go down
unless you are a polly or an executive then it's
going up
at the next election our reply will be
going out

**40sondacurb** · 07-10-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Should they raise it? In Ohio, they are thinking of moving it from $5.15/hr to $6.85/hr (my first job paid $3.35/hr min wage).

Sure, it would be nice if lower income folks could get a boost in their incomes, but I wonder if that will translate into increased costs for products and services.

My other argument is that this may set people up to only achieve the minimum.

Pfft, they're thinking about going up to 7 something here in California.

**forcifer** · 07-10-2006, 01:17 PM

hope they raise it. first job people in Kansas can get is a bag boy that pays minimum wage. but if they raise it, inflation will go up. =/

dai · 07-10-2006, 01:28 PM

you may find these an interesting comparison
http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/lr/labour...e%20Rates.html

**40sondacurb** · 07-10-2006, 02:42 PM

States with minimum wage rates higher than the Federal

States with no minimum wage law

States with minimum wage rates the same as the Federal

States with minimum wage rates lower than the Federal

American Samoa has special minimum wage rates

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Ohio

BTW they can make exemptions for businesses that that only grouse X amount per year

bry623 · 07-11-2006, 07:29 AM

Good map. Look at it in terms of Bush states vs. Kerry states. Very interesting.

yustr · 07-11-2006, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Good map. Look at it in terms of Bush states vs. Kerry states. Very interesting.

I thought exactly the same thing. Just change the colors to red and blue....

**40sondacurb** · 07-11-2006, 11:31 AM

Take out Florida and Alaska, add New Mexico and yeah.

**forcifer** · 07-12-2006, 08:25 PM

nooo! crappy kansas =.=

07-10-2006, 08:56 AM	#1 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,692 OS: winxp pro sp2	Minimum Wage Should they raise it? In Ohio, they are thinking of moving it from $5.15/hr to $6.85/hr (my first job paid $3.35/hr min wage). Sure, it would be nice if lower income folks could get a boost in their incomes, but I wonder if that will translate into increased costs for products and services. My other argument is that this may set people up to only achieve the minimum. __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"

07-10-2006, 10:01 AM	#3 (permalink)
Zazula Manager Emeritus, I'm blond, James Blond Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 7,667 OS: Win XP Pro SP2	1. $5.15/hr pre-tax&ss is very low by European standards. A superpower has to maintain internal stability by sustaining a decent living standard to the widest spectrum of their population - otherwise it collapses from the internal. I know turbocapitalists do not understand how the Scandinavian model works so well; but it does anyhow. 2. The mimimum wage is not supposed to be well above the official poverty level, though - at least in statistical/census terminology. 3. A higher minimum wage does not praise mediocrity - people's attitudes do. And the system can reduce or boost this kind of attitudes - luckily or unfortunately; it depends what is deemed normal in a specific society. 4. The lack of money is indeed the root of all evil... __________________ "Time is the wisest because it discovers everything" Thales of Miletus (ca.624BC-ca.546BC) "Everything flows, nothing stands still." Heraclitus of Ephesus (ca.535BC-475BC) "One thing I know, that I know nothing" Socrates of Athens (ca.470BC–399BC) Last edited by Zazula; 07-10-2006 at 10:02 AM.

07-10-2006, 10:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
95five-0 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Corinth, TX Posts: 1,339 OS: 2000/XP/2003/Vista/2008	I have a few opinons on minimum wage. First is nobody is forcing these individuals to be working for minimum wage. That is the great thing about america. Go get yourself an education and get a better job. Second it has been shown before that when minimum wage gets raised jobs get cut. IE since employers have to pay people more they tend to hire less people. So some will make more but more will make none. __________________ "If it's really a supercomputer, how come the bullets don't bounce off when I shoot it ?" <<PC Pitstop>><< AVG Free>><<Spybot>><<Everest 2.0>><<Trend Micro House Call>><<HijackThis How-to>>

07-10-2006, 12:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
Zazula Manager Emeritus, I'm blond, James Blond Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 7,667 OS: Win XP Pro SP2	1. Minimum wage employment is not a requirement posed by education-challenged individuals, but rather by companies that need cheap labor to maintain an acceptable bottom line (and may be to compensate for poor management, corporate greed and/or "bribes"). For heaven's sake, who employs the people that cross illegally the borders from Mexico? Who outsources production to China and to countries that allow child labor? Moreover, if one is education-challenged, that doesn't in any way mean this individual is deterministically doomed to poverty and minimum wage. And this is what is really, truly great about America - everyone is given an opportunity, and many people have well succeeded without an extensive formal education. 2. As 95five-0 accurately stated, when the minimum wage is raised, then job cuts follow - especially in the States were there's no employment protectionism / restrictionism (e.g. in Greece no company can fire more than 2% of their working force). So, this is a pure free-market call for all companies to straighten up their efficiency - no more "free lunch" for the employers; they cannot count on having hordes of staff at a low cost. They have to optimize their efficiency, to focus way beyond simple effectiveness... And since I am a fervent supporter of Free Economy, this is the way to go. Not all fingers are created equal; and for a reason. So, this is the time for the best / most appropriate to shine - both for employees as well as for employers. No more loafers, no more companies with unacceptable products / services. An increase in minimum wage is also a strong motivation for people to move away from mediocrity; otherwise they'll simply loose their jobs. 3. The job cuts represent also the reason why the prices won't go up when the minimum wage is raised. The prices are determined by the offer and demand relationship; and this is not affected. So, the companies restructure and fire people, in order to be able to keep their cost at the same level - they don't keep their staff and then sell at a higher price... Also, the fact that some people get paid more does not affect inflation, because there are also the people who are paid less (underemployed) or not paid at all. And who on earth said that the problem lies in the below-the-poverty-line families? The real democracy-threatening problem lies in the impoverished, nouveau-pauvre middle class, who own nothing but a mortgage, an equity loan and a dozen credit-card debts... 4. However, if all these are to follow, then a strong shock to the societal cohesive web is also due. What to do? Invest in education, social support, infrastructure for all. Where did the "of the people, by the people, for the people" go? Who wants "a country of idiots with nukes", as was the topic of an older tsf thread? Study History, my friends. When the society gets broken apart because there are more and more people who can't pass by in a decent way, then very soon thereafter, an awfully totalitarian regime follows, having exploited the people's frustration and their despise for politics, thus steering them away from a healty-operating political system. This is exactly why the lack of money is indeed the root of all evil... __________________ "Time is the wisest because it discovers everything" Thales of Miletus (ca.624BC-ca.546BC) "Everything flows, nothing stands still." Heraclitus of Ephesus (ca.535BC-475BC) "One thing I know, that I know nothing" Socrates of Athens (ca.470BC–399BC)

07-10-2006, 01:05 PM	#6 (permalink)
dai Manager, Hardware Forums Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: west australia Posts: 56,629 OS: win 7 32x 64x rtm	that amount is ridiculous,anyone earning that amount an hour is not living,only barely existing when it comes to wages here our prime minister is like a lift attendant,the only thing he knows is go down unless you are a polly or an executive then it's going up at the next election our reply will be going out __________________

07-10-2006, 01:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
forcifer ole' Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kansas City kansas Posts: 3,628 OS: Vista Premium 32 My System Blog Entries: 1	hope they raise it. first job people in Kansas can get is a bag boy that pays minimum wage. but if they raise it, inflation will go up. =/ __________________

07-10-2006, 01:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
dai Manager, Hardware Forums Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: west australia Posts: 56,629 OS: win 7 32x 64x rtm	you may find these an interesting comparison http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/lr/labour...e%20Rates.html __________________

07-10-2006, 02:42 PM	#10 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	States with minimum wage rates higher than the Federal States with no minimum wage law States with minimum wage rates the same as the Federal States with minimum wage rates lower than the Federal American Samoa has special minimum wage rates http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Ohio BTW they can make exemptions for businesses that that only grouse X amount per year __________________ Donate to keep the forum running Last edited by 40sondacurb; 07-10-2006 at 02:45 PM.

07-11-2006, 07:29 AM	#11 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,692 OS: winxp pro sp2	Good map. Look at it in terms of Bush states vs. Kerry states. Very interesting. __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"

07-11-2006, 11:31 AM	#13 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Take out Florida and Alaska, add New Mexico and yeah. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running

07-12-2006, 08:25 PM	#14 (permalink)
forcifer ole' Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kansas City kansas Posts: 3,628 OS: Vista Premium 32 My System Blog Entries: 1	nooo! crappy kansas =.= __________________