yustr

When looking for some Reagan quotes for bry, I came across this from his speech of March 4, 1987:

Contrast this with what we hear too often from W and his gang of zealots on (pick one) Abu Ghraib: "It was a couple of sargents." (Not really a quote but you get my meaning.)

Leaks - I'll fire anyone who was involved. But it sure looks like it was Rove or Cheney or both. But nobody's been fired yet. Libby quit only after he was indited. Cherry picking intelegence - but the British said so. Armor plates - "You go to war with the army you have" - but there was no reason to go when Cheney said to go (none ever actually but that's a subject for another thread).

And on and on. Nothing ever is his fault.

And back to the Reagan quote - someone once said "Once you fake sincerity the rest is easy."

bry623

Reagan was the nest president that we ever had. Bush took responsibility for FEMA in N.O.

Successrealm

That's what bother's me about this admin, they have NO Accountability.
They have consistently blamed others, and everyone else for their disasters.
It's not surprising though, considering Dubya's past, and his failures in every aspect and always getting bailed out. The same men who work with/for him are the same one's involved in Iran Contra, Watergate, etc.....

It's a constant "shifting the blame" tactic with this admin, over and over.
It has, as well, permeated the Bush "Apologists" also. Whenever something is brought up about this admin, it is always "countered" with a "but but but but.."
but but but Clinton...but but but the PR guys put up the "Mission Accomplished" banner on the ship (LIE)...

If the "but but but" scenario isn't used, then it's the classic "Shoot the messenger" technique.
If Murtha says something, instead of discussing what he said, I hear it going back to his hair, or he's old, or his dealings in the PAST...
Scott Ritter---Don't listen to him, he's a child molestor...
Kerry---He looks French, can't trust him....
Gore---He's just a environmental wacko, look how freaky he looks...
Joe Wilson---He just "hates" Bush... etc etc etc...
It happens EVERY time. When someone says something, it is "shifted" to the "messenger", without ever having to actually deal with the message.
The "shoot the messenger" tactic works well with this admin, that way, they and their "followers" never actually have to discuss the message laid out...


Heh, I haven't even brought up the NUMEROUS "flip flop's" from the "Flip-Flopper in chief". His flip flops make Kerry's look minuscule. (Yes, you are correct, he flip flopped from "anyone INVOLVED" in the Plame incident, to "anyone INDICTED"., and then tried to spin it on us...Yawn)


----"Swift Shifting", since 2000...
(Anyone remember Willie Horton and the knife, or "Hey, McCain's got a little black baaaby"?)


Reagan was a MUCH better President, man, Debutante, speaker, Father, friend, and yes...Actor. Reagan even had the balls to address us all and ADMIT the Weapons Dealings in so many words...
Even though Reagan had his issues (Weapons selling, Teleprompter issues) he actually read and wrote things.
Has anyone else noticed that MOST president's have continually written quite a bit while serving. IE Memoirs, books, notes, etc.
Comparing Reagan to Bush can only be described as comparing Nostradamus to "Miss Cleo's Hotline"....

newhouse1390

To be honest George W. Bush isn't the most popular president right now. If you look back at the Reagan years you saw the left in stern protest of the administrations stand off with the soviets. John Kerry, for instance, demanding a nuclear freeze. It took our country several years to find out what Ronald Reagan did and why it was so important.

Today I see the same comparison being drawn. We have a left so bitter that they have lost almost everything that they are willing to go to the extremes such as demonizing a war when we still have our boys over there. This is a very dangerous game and this enemy that we are facing is a very brutal enemy. It is unfortunate that men and women are loosing their lives, but I see past the loss of life and see a nation in Iraq growing daily not only by army, but by a nation of willing people. What courage these Iraqis have. The world is watching the United States and history will judge the United States, and it is my opinion that the world and history will give the US credit for building a stable democratic nation in a dangerous and unstable region. As President Reagan’s legacy lives on we now see the importance, I think that we all will soon see the importance of our involvement in this war.

Successrealm

You know, whenever I hear someone "blame" the "left" for speaking out, and showing the utter failures of this admin I have to say something. You state that the "left" is bitter, and "demonizing a war when we still have our boys over there" but I'd like you to remember that the "left" along with the REST of the country, remembers that this "war" was based on lies, and was not for 911. These failures, aren't the "left's" fault.

During Kosovo, I can give you plenty of quotes of Tom Delay, Hastert, and other (R's) that were criticizing the president and the war. Were THEY as well being "bitter" and demonizing our troops? You can support the troops, and be against an unjust occupation. (Which IS what it is..) America, yes ALL of America, and a vast majority of the world, backed this president after 911, but it was he that took us into Iraq, which has not helped us in our war on terror. I don't quite understand how some of you see this as a good thing, and keep hoping that by occupying Iraq, we are going to somehow "turn the corner". Moving the goalposts doesn't reflect reality, it only changes reality for those failing.....

As bitter as the world is now on this issue and its lies, do you honestly think that one day in the future, this man we call our "president" is somehow going to be seen as "great" and anything other than a slap in the face and a kick in the A**? I mean really?...

In every aspect, from the dollar, to the ports, drug costs, (I'm not going to mention it all, because it is everything) we have a failed, corrupt, and misguided presidency and administration (And entire govt that is complicit)

As for Reagan, some could argue that the Former USSR was already headed that way, and that OUR spending only helped our defense industry. (But that's another thread.. )

George Bush's legacy will be one of practically reversing EVERYTHING this country was before he began. I really don't see how he's going to be remembered as anything other than that. The only thing he has, is his "war on terror" but he screwed that up by attacking, destroying, and occupying Iraq of all places.
We cannot pass democracy to those that want us out. We cannot pass democracy by the barrel of a gun. We cannot pass democracy by securing the oil ministry first, saying we are there to free them then occupying them, saying we come to stop the torture then DO more torture, setup corporations of merc consultants blowing up cars along the road while filming it, or occupying a Nation that wants us dead while we create three more "terrorists" for every one we "liberate". The Iraqi People see this, and to think they don't understand what is taking place, is foolish on our part.
The administration continues to lie to us about it only being "dead enders" when in fact, just like in Vietnam, it is the PEOPLE wanting us out. (The CIA and the men on the ground showed it was IRAQI'S, and not foreign "terrorists").
The administration lied about the Jessica Lynch rescue, the Pat Tillman death, the paying of journalists for good stories in Iraq, used known liars Chalabi and "curveball" as "evidence" of the "imminent booga booga threat" in Iraq, changed the goalposts and "reasons" for going into Iraq, and on and on...
To keep wishing it is going to "change", and that Dubya can take his place with honor back on the rubble giving his "Bullhorn speech" with us all backing him, is wishful thinking IMO.

We Americans are not stupid, and America is waking up.
Newhouse...we are occupiers dude....and Bush is no Reagan.

bry623

Let's not forget that the Congress authorized the war.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

They believed the same intellignence that the president believed. The whole world believed it. Just because a threat is not imminent, does not mean it shold be ignored. If the U.N. tells Iraq if you do not X, then Z will happen. They better be prepared to follow through on it. Anybody with children should understand that.

In a post 9/11 world, America cannot sit by and watch the world go on by. I am proud that the president has the guts to go forward on his doctrine outlined in his September 20, 2001 speech to Congress. I guess no attack in the U.S. in almost 5 years isn't good enough for some people.

Where was Zarqawi before he was in Iraq??

Keeping the masses safe means protecting them from their own folly. Most Americans didn't think that Lincoln should have fought the rebels as he did. his approval driopped as the war progressed. Most American do not have the guts to see a fight through to the end no matter what. FDR had it, Truman had it, Lincoln had it, which is why he is the second greatest American ever. Bush has it too and I still believe to this very day that History will vindicate him.

Iraq wants democracy. Newhouse was there, he saw it with his own eyes. And if they think of us as occupiers and would like us to leave, I am sure that the president would accomadate them. But until that day, I propse that we all write our senators to reverse everything. Let's give Saddam his beret back and let's just get out. That will make the world a whole lot better.

I worked very hard to get Bush the win in Ohio, but I never got to elect Reagan president. I did get to see him speak. He was the greatest American ever.

Successrealm

Ahhh BUT.....You fail to address what was NOT told to Congress. Congress was told WHAT to believe, remember that part? Congress, and the rest of the world was not told the other side to the arguments put forth by the administration, and the OSP (Office of Special Plans). If I tell you that there is something, but I fail to tell you that everyone else states it is not true, do you believe me? Of course you do, because you didn't get to see the OTHER side's evidence and reports. This so called "well eeeeverybody else saw it toooo" argument, has been debunked several times, and Congress itself stated that they were shown only certain things, and NOT the evidence that blew away the "threat" argument. I'll go over some of them with you now Bry.
Unmanned Drone Aircraft---Congress was NOT told that the United States Air Force said they were not what the Admin claimed they were.
Mobile Labs---Congress was NOT told that the UN/US and other inspectors stated it was not used for what the admin claimed (Instead, Congress didn't get pictures of them, but "cartoon drawings" along with a scare story)
Aluminum Tubes---Congress was NOT told what the International Atomic agency and other inspectors stated about them being ONLY for missiles, but instead had to rely in Rice's testimony that "it can only be what we claim it is for".
In fact, the dimensions and the aluminum alloy were identical to those of tubes acquired for rockets by Iraq in the 1980s. Furthermore, the Iraqis had developed and tested centrifuges before the first Gulf War that were much more capable than those that could have been built with the imported tubes.
The DOE experts also pointed out that if these tubes were actually intended for centrifuges, there should be evidence of attempts by the Iraqis to acquire hundreds of thousands of other very specific components, but no such evidence existed. This critique of the CIA interpretation was seconded by the State Department’s intelligence branch and, independently, by an international group of centrifuge experts advising the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA).
Chalabi---Congress was NOT told that Chalabi was a known liar and his "evidence" of Iraq's threat was LIES
"Curveball"---Congress was NOT told about "Curveball" and the CIA's insistence that he was lying and had lied before, and could not be trusted.
Powell's 12 yr old college thesis---Congress and the UN was NOT told about Powell's use of a 12 yr old college thesis found on the internet and used by PROOF in front of the world was actually from before the 1991 Gulf War...
Yellowcake/Niger---I don't think we even need to mention this, do we?
One senior I.A.E.A. official went further, “These documents are so bad that I cannot imagine that they came from a serious intelligence agency. It depresses me, given the low quality of the documents, that it was not stopped. At the level it reached, I would have expected more checking.”
http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?030331fa_fact1


Also, Powell and Rice both admit MONTHS before 911, that Containment had worked, and Saddam couldn't even threaten his neighbors....
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-rice-wmd.wmv


The UN was right.....and the "frenchy French" were too...




No one is asking to sit idly by, but as you can plainly see, there was NO threat from Iraq, it has been shown to be planned BEFORE 911 to attack Iraq, numerous documents show that he was planning the evidence around the war and the rhetoric. Also, the results of this "war" under his little "doctrine" have FAILED.


So, you are saying that just because we haven't been attacked yet, George Bush is keeping us safe? This is a wonderful theory bry, but I have a better one. We are safe, because of the "magic rock" theory. See, I keep a "magic rock" in my pocket, and have since 911, so THAT is why we haven't been attacked again, because of my "magic rock"....
Terrorism has TRIPLED since the invasion and this "war/occupation" (even as the admin itself LIED to us about it decreasing, and had to backtrack and say it's reports was wrong after agencies pointed out the increase. London was attacked, Spain, Bali etc. Look at our borders...LOOK at our shipping ports/containers that are wide open..LOOK at the FAILING grades this admin got for not making the necessary changes it was required to make and promised it would make. You are basing your "safety" on things that take years to plan (look at how long 911 took) while I and others are basing the level of safety we have on results and reality

Very good question! Ask the Iraqi People how they like us having him there now....




bry, you are comparing apples to oranges here, and forgetting the word occupation in your summary. If Bush would have NOT occupied Iraq of all places, he would still see American's and the world backing him.



I was there in 91, and later with the United States Marines. I fully understand the pain Iraqi's felt. However, the majority of Iraqi's have stated they want us out, and most of them have no problem seeing us get killed there. Does it make sense to you that America offer's "democracy" by the barrel of a gun? Does it make sense to you the ever changing justifications necessary?



Have you been paying attention? Poll after poll there (yes even FOX'S) shows that a vast majority state we are occupiers, and they want us OUT. Fewer than half, 46 percent, say the country is better off now than it was before the war. And half of Iraqis now say it was wrong for U.S.-led forces to invade in spring 2003, up from 39 percent in 2004.
There's other evidence of the United States' increasing unpopularity: Two-thirds now oppose the presence of U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq, 14 points higher than in February 2004. Nearly six in 10 disapprove of how the United States has operated in Iraq since the war, and most of them disapprove strongly.
On a side note, remember the Iraqi woman that held up her little "purple finger" with Laura hugging here and a great little "photo op" at Bush's SOTU address? Well, she now sees she was duped and the rights of women in certain areas have delcined from what she was "promised", due to the Islamic culture arising has given her a 180 degree turn. She is pissed now...
So, I think you need to write the president you so trust as soon as possible so that he can see we are occupiers

You are being facetious now ....It's funny, but quite sad that many Iraqi's are actually SAYING that they were better off under Saddam. Some of you need to remember that life in Iraq was fairly easy for most Iraqi's. If you didn't speak out against Saddam, or try to overthrow the govt, you lived as an Iraqi, and Saddam had control of the warring factions, and was OPPOSED to ideals such as Usama's....
Iraqi's now have no security, and live under worse economic conditions along with constant fear, and an occupattion from a country that they feel is robbing them. Is it too hard to comprehend that Saddam should stay in jail, but likewise we shouldn't be occupier's?


I agree, Reagan was a great man

bry623

I want everyone to take note: me and SR agree on something!!!!