Spying, where does it end?

**40sondacurb** · 05-12-2006, 10:21 AM

http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=990

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/cauley/

They're spying on our phone calls and our ISPs. And the sick thing is that they want us to know so we can get used to the idea. People keep talking about "how far will this go" well if they're already tapping the 2 largest forms of communication aren't things bad enough?

bry623 · 05-12-2006, 10:48 AM

Actually, they can see everything you do anyways. Pretty soon, you will have all of your freedoms taken away.

Want a burger and fries, too bad, you already had your limit this month and you have been black listed at all of the burger joints.

I shouldn't be saying this, but they monitor all emails too. They all run through one governement server that is filtered to look for certain key words so be careful what you post.

High tech satellites and listening devices are being aimed at every major city. The governement currently knows what you think.

The government is everywhere!!!

**bruiser** · 05-12-2006, 11:07 AM

Who else might be spying on you when you go online?

**cjessee** · 05-12-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Want a burger and fries, too bad, you already had your limit this month and you have been black listed at all of the burger joints.

Wouldn't that be something.... no soup for you!

yustr · 05-12-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I know that we’re going to hear “But it’s not really a search because we’re only looking at numbers not at content. Therefore, it’s not protected by the 4th Amendment”. Bull Dung!!!

Can you imagine the Founders nodding approval on hearing this from the King: “You don’t need that freedom explicitly stated because I’m not going to read your mail, I’m just going to track who you write to and who writes to you.” Time and technology may change but tyrants stay pretty much the same.

I’m sure there are plenty of folks who will say “I have nothing to hide. So if it makes me safer, go ahead and listen.” There are two things wrong with this thought: 1) It does not make you safer. In fact, now you have two very real enemies: the terrorists AND the very people you think are protecting you from the terrorists. 2) It is not your right (or Congresses or the Presidents) to invalidate an Amendment to the Constitution. There is a process in place to do that which was not followed.

We have allowed irrational fear, promoted ad nausea by the very people who benefit from that fear, to triumph.

I have never been so worried about my country. We have a President and Vice President who do not believe in our form of government. We have a Congress who has abdicated responsibilities they are not allowed to abdicate. We have a press that, for the most part and until very recently, refused to protect their responsibility to be independent. We have rampant corruption at all levels of the Government. We have a public mollified into complacency by a full belly and 130 channels on the TV.

These are bleak days indeed.

**40sondacurb** · 05-12-2006, 11:37 AM

The idea that people will selectively look for things without waver is absurd. There was an experiment on this. They told these people to watch a van, they gave them a surveillance truck and everything, then they put some soft core porn stars in the next house. And in almost every case the van managed to slip away while the subjects watched and listened to the porn stars.

People are people, the people watching this stuff aren't models of human decorum, they're just like everyone else.

**forcifer** · 05-12-2006, 03:14 PM

i dont know why some people complain about so much. if they arent doing anything, why would it matter? but if they go beyond what they are doing, then its bad

**bruiser** · 05-12-2006, 03:34 PM

You people realize the USA Today story is a retread of a NY Times story from last December, don't you? Not a peep was heard then, but now it seems all of the MSM is doing their own retread of it. It couldn't be that this is an attempt to derail the appointment of Gen. Hayden, could it? The timing is suspicous.

And to those of you who think looking at phone calls, internet, etc., just started under Bush, think again. Ever hear of Project Echelon?

http://home.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html

MicroBell · 05-15-2006, 01:26 AM

Quote:

“AT&T Corp., BellSouth Corp and Verizon Telecommunications are facing lawsuits seeking billions of dollars in damages for the decision to turn over calling records to the government, the New York Times reported Saturday.”

I'm sure there are quite a few "Questionable" things our goverment is doing...but it only gets talked about when it reaches the public. On my daily running of the blogs I came accross an interesting statement from the only company that refused to turn over their records.

Quote:

“In a written statement, the attorney for former Qwest CEO Joseph Nacchio said the government approached the company in the fall of 2001 seeking access to the phone records of Qwest customers, with neither a warrant nor approval from a special court established to handle surveillance matters.”

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/A...=1&oref=slogin

What's interesting here is if AT&T Corp., BellSouth Corp and Verizon Telecommunications turned over this data without a warrant and no approval from a special court (FISA) (which is what Qwest is saying) then they could be held liable.

While I have no issues monitoring anything related to overseas..I have an issue with our goverment monitoring domestic data from people unrelated to the war on terrorisim.

This was a statement from a Sen. Wayne Allard

Quote:

''Telephone customers' names, addresses and other personal information have not been handed over to NSA as part of this program,''

Well big whoop!!! If the data that was turned over contains the conversation and the partys telephone number...how hard is it to get the rest of the telephone customers names, addresses, and other personal information. Does anyone really expect Bush and the other people involved in this to say "Yea..we are breaking the law?" I don't think so.

~~drbillchristian~~ · 06-12-2006, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Spying, where does it end?

It ends with learning how to make "Mother of Satan" and how to make detonators out of pre-paid cell-phones.

**-=Rousseau=-** · 06-15-2006, 12:21 AM

Are you seriously suggesting terrorist-like methods? That is rediculous...

~~drbillchristian~~ · 06-15-2006, 01:00 AM

No I suggest remaining aware of the possible need to use freedom-loving, patriotic American methods.

**40sondacurb** · 06-15-2006, 02:25 AM

You liked V for Vendetta too didn't you bill?

Zazula · 06-15-2006, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40sondacurb

The idea that people will selectively look for things without waver is absurd. There was an experiment on this. They told these people to watch a van, they gave them a surveillance truck and everything, then they put some soft core porn stars in the next house. And in almost every case the van managed to slip away while the subjects watched and listened to the porn stars.

First of all, why wasn't I notified that this experiment was being carried out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40sondacurb

People are people, the people watching this stuff aren't models of human decorum, they're just like everyone else.

Hmmm, that's worrying me the most!

**40sondacurb** · 06-15-2006, 03:24 AM

Well, a more positive way of putting t would be there are some good and a whole lot bad lol.

yustr · 06-15-2006, 07:24 AM

40: the initial screening is certainly done by computers. This is the whole data mining thing. If the algorithm spots a pattern then it gets passed on to still other computers and only a few ever make it to an analyst. But even if only 0.00001% of the calls get passed that’s still a whole bunch of calls to look at.

The problem with that, aside from the clear Constitutional violation, is that it takes some time to make its way through that process. Maybe days, weeks or even months. So Osama could be calling right now and the NSA wouldn’t spot it until Labor Day.

It may be time for a little civil disobedience. It should not be too difficult to overload their database. If everyone doubled or quadrupled the number of calls they placed each day that might do it. The calls don’t even have to be to anyone; just random numbers say 202-456-1414, or 202-225-4401 or 202-224-4774 (respectively the White House switchboard, Congressman Hoekstra – House Intelligence Committee Chairman, Senator Robert – Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman). If we could enlist the autodialers of the telemarketing industry NSA would grind to a halt in hours.

~~drbillchristian~~ · 06-15-2006, 11:09 AM

Quote:

First of all, why wasn't I notified that this experiment was being carried out?

They didn't call me, either.

**-=Rousseau=-** · 06-15-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbillchristian

No I suggest remaining aware of the possible need to use freedom-loving, patriotic American methods.

Like phone bombs? Starting a civil war isn't all that patriotic...

~~drbillchristian~~ · 06-15-2006, 12:39 PM

It's so much more "patriotic" to live under tyranny. Like those patriots from the American Revolution that were afraid of starting a "civil war".

**-=Rousseau=-** · 06-15-2006, 01:44 PM

So it's either war, or passivism.... I see. Diplomacy and non-violent means are just thrown out the window...

05-12-2006, 10:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Spying, where does it end? http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=990 http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/cauley/ They're spying on our phone calls and our ISPs. And the sick thing is that they want us to know so we can get used to the idea. People keep talking about "how far will this go" well if they're already tapping the 2 largest forms of communication aren't things bad enough? __________________ Donate to keep the forum running

05-12-2006, 10:48 AM	#2 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 11,692 OS: winxp pro sp2	Actually, they can see everything you do anyways. Pretty soon, you will have all of your freedoms taken away. Want a burger and fries, too bad, you already had your limit this month and you have been black listed at all of the burger joints. I shouldn't be saying this, but they monitor all emails too. They all run through one governement server that is filtered to look for certain key words so be careful what you post. High tech satellites and listening devices are being aimed at every major city. The governement currently knows what you think. The government is everywhere!!! __________________ "If you aren't a liberal when you're 20, you have no heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 50, you have no brain"

05-12-2006, 11:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	The idea that people will selectively look for things without waver is absurd. There was an experiment on this. They told these people to watch a van, they gave them a surveillance truck and everything, then they put some soft core porn stars in the next house. And in almost every case the van managed to slip away while the subjects watched and listened to the porn stars. People are people, the people watching this stuff aren't models of human decorum, they're just like everyone else. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running Last edited by 40sondacurb; 05-12-2006 at 11:42 AM.

05-12-2006, 03:14 PM	#7 (permalink)
forcifer ole' Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Kansas City kansas Posts: 3,631 OS: Vista Premium 32 My System Blog Entries: 1	i dont know why some people complain about so much. if they arent doing anything, why would it matter? but if they go beyond what they are doing, then its bad __________________

06-15-2006, 01:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
~~drbillchristian~~ Register user Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 177 OS: WinXP (Pro & Home) & Ubuntu	Rediculous ? No I suggest remaining aware of the possible need to use freedom-loving, patriotic American methods.

05-12-2006, 11:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
bruiser TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,975 OS: xp	Who else might be spying on you when you go online?

05-12-2006, 03:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
bruiser TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,975 OS: xp	You people realize the USA Today story is a retread of a NY Times story from last December, don't you? Not a peep was heard then, but now it seems all of the MSM is doing their own retread of it. It couldn't be that this is an attempt to derail the appointment of Gen. Hayden, could it? The timing is suspicous. And to those of you who think looking at phone calls, internet, etc., just started under Bush, think again. Ever hear of Project Echelon? http://home.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html

06-15-2006, 12:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
-=Rousseau=- Biker, Geek and Jock Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Nashvegas Posts: 827 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate My System	Are you seriously suggesting terrorist-like methods? That is rediculous...

06-15-2006, 02:25 AM	#13 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	You liked V for Vendetta too didn't you bill? __________________ Donate to keep the forum running

06-15-2006, 03:24 AM	#15 (permalink)
40sondacurb Don't be a menace Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,285 OS: Vista sp2	Well, a more positive way of putting t would be there are some good and a whole lot bad lol. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running

06-15-2006, 07:24 AM	#16 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 6,052 OS: XP Pro My System	40: the initial screening is certainly done by computers. This is the whole data mining thing. If the algorithm spots a pattern then it gets passed on to still other computers and only a few ever make it to an analyst. But even if only 0.00001% of the calls get passed that’s still a whole bunch of calls to look at. The problem with that, aside from the clear Constitutional violation, is that it takes some time to make its way through that process. Maybe days, weeks or even months. So Osama could be calling right now and the NSA wouldn’t spot it until Labor Day. It may be time for a little civil disobedience. It should not be too difficult to overload their database. If everyone doubled or quadrupled the number of calls they placed each day that might do it. The calls don’t even have to be to anyone; just random numbers say 202-456-1414, or 202-225-4401 or 202-224-4774 (respectively the White House switchboard, Congressman Hoekstra – House Intelligence Committee Chairman, Senator Robert – Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman). If we could enlist the autodialers of the telemarketing industry NSA would grind to a halt in hours. __________________ If there are lawyers or politicians involved, logic may be a very poor tool for reaching a conclusion.

06-15-2006, 12:39 PM	#19 (permalink)
~~drbillchristian~~ Register user Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 177 OS: WinXP (Pro & Home) & Ubuntu	Yes you are right ... It's so much more "patriotic" to live under tyranny. Like those patriots from the American Revolution that were afraid of starting a "civil war".

06-15-2006, 01:44 PM	#20 (permalink)
-=Rousseau=- Biker, Geek and Jock Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Nashvegas Posts: 827 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate My System	So it's either war, or passivism.... I see. Diplomacy and non-violent means are just thrown out the window...