Fuel

crazijoe · 08-15-2005, 07:51 PM

OK who's responsible for these outrageous gas prices?

**Fox** · 08-15-2005, 08:12 PM

Iran. I say we just go in and take over. The weapons of mass destruction excuse worked well, and I see no reason not to use it again.

elf · 08-15-2005, 08:15 PM

heck if you told me they had them I'D go invade iraq myself

Geekgirl · 08-15-2005, 08:59 PM

I hear prices will go to $3.00 a gallon ....they got us by the balls wouldn't you say, their smarter than our goverment thinks

**40sondacurb** · 08-15-2005, 09:25 PM

I just hope the Hydrogen breakthrough happens before we're all bankrupt.

The car companies are really scared, their actually putting money into hydrogen research, even the American companies!

Saudi Arabia has already stated that they will not be able to maintain current export quotas after 2010, and that' probably not a conservative estimate.

**MD_Willington** · 08-16-2005, 11:40 AM

What's the most abundant source of readilly available hydrogen....

Crude oil and natural gas...H2 floats to the top of the distallation column where it is captured during the cracking process.

The Hydrogen economy is the new oil baron economy...nothing will change.

How many of you know that quite a bit of the oil imported to the USA is from Alberta Canada? and did you know that Sinopec is looking into buying up most of that oil?

More than 80% of U.S. natural gas imports come from Canada, mainly the western provinces of Alberta, British Columbia, and Saskatchewan.

Why go half way around the world to get oil when it is due North?

**DumberDrummer** · 08-16-2005, 12:08 PM

See the thing is, that hydrogen isn't very viable right now. If we depend on crude oil and natural gas for producing it, then we are in the same boat. When its all gone, its gone.

Then the main way to get hydrogen in anykind of major amounts is to use electrolysis.

That uses electricity. Then the energy in the electricity is converted, with loss, into potential energy stored in the bonds of H2. Now we use this H2 in engines to power motors/cars, and generate electricity (alternators).

You can see the problem. Not only is it inefficient (electricity->hydrogen->electricity), but in order to make enough hydrogen, we must expend more electric power, which comes from traditional power plants (Coal, Hydro, etc...)

Its a vicious cycle, and untill we find a way to get hydrogen on the cheap by, say, mining Jupiter or something, we are screwed on the hydrogen.

Ethanol may be our best bet, but I believe their are energy input/output problems there as well.

Also, MD is right. Even if we find another energy source, it will be controlled just as tightly.

Or maybe not? If everyone can get it, regardless of geographic location, maybe competition will be extremely tough and we'll get good prices.

**40sondacurb** · 08-16-2005, 12:23 PM

Well that's my point, right now it cost more energy to make hydrogen than is obtained form it, we need a knew way of gettting it.

yustr · 08-16-2005, 01:29 PM

It always takes more energy to produce work than the work you get out of it. Some ways are just less inefficient than others. For example; a D cell battery takes 50X more energy to make than is available as stored electricity. (But you can’t carry a battery manufacturing plant around hunting for that blown fuse.)

One problem that's not normally included in the discussion is that we've built massive centralized energy production plants, run by massive companies. Inherent in both is a large amount of waste. If all I need to do is provide electric power for my house (or village) the whole equation changes. I can probably do that with a small wind turbine, or bio-fuel, or solar cells (or some combination). Once the scale becomes “This plant needs to provide power for 1,000,000 homes” the options are reduced to just a few. Likewise, if I didn’t have to go up against a SUV, maybe those little streamlined solar cars would do fine. So we need to address scale as well as method when we’re talking of an energy source for the future.

**DumberDrummer** · 08-16-2005, 01:34 PM

I realize that, and that's the price you pay because of thermodynamics.

But my point about hydrogen was that it is more inefficient than some other things.

I kind of like your idea though. Around here, we have lots of sun in the summer. We could probably store a lot of power in capicitators over the summer, or batteries, then run off of that during the winter.

johnwill · 08-16-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

One problem that's not normally included in the discussion is that we've built massive centralized energy production plants, run by massive companies. Inherent in both is a large amount of waste. If all I need to do is provide electric power for my house (or village) the whole equation changes. I can probably do that with a small wind turbine, or bio-fuel, or solar cells (or some combination). Once the scale becomes “This plant needs to provide power for 1,000,000 homes” the options are reduced to just a few.

I generally disagree that large energy production plants are inefficient. In truth, if it were truly more efficient to produce electricity at small local plants, what would stop the electric utilities, or some new startup, from doing just that?

yustr · 08-16-2005, 07:58 PM

In the US, and probably most of the developed world, utilities are a regulated monopoly. They are limited to a certain percentage of profit on capital projects – 8% of 1 billion is 1000X more than 8% of 1 million. Hence the desire for big nuclear projects back in the 70’s and 80’s. Now it’s larger and larger oil and coal fired plants – again big $ projects.

Sure the big energy companies could just build 1000 million dollar plants and enjoy the same profit. But that’s not really what I’m getting at. I think the entire energy production apparatus could be decentralized. Lots of small plants all feeding the grid, owned by lots of communities and individuals. How will the utility company bill me if the power comes from solar cells on my roof?

This is especially important as third world countries clamor for more energy. Sure it’s a feather in the dictator’s cap to have a nuke, but who really benefits in the long run. The citizens or Bechtel?

**Fox** · 08-16-2005, 08:49 PM

That is a great idea, and that's exactly what's going on in the town of Krefeld in Germany where I stayed. They had power windmills all over the place. No nuclear plant in sight.

Just a random thought of mine- I think biofuel would probably be the most production:usage efficient means of remedying energy problems.

**DumberDrummer** · 08-16-2005, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

In the US, and probably most of the developed world, utilities are a regulated monopoly. They are limited to a certain percentage of profit on capital projects – 8% of 1 billion is 1000X more than 8% of 1 million. Hence the desire for big nuclear projects back in the 70’s and 80’s. Now it’s larger and larger oil and coal fired plants – again big $ projects.

Sure the big energy companies could just build 1000 million dollar plants and enjoy the same profit. But that’s not really what I’m getting at. I think the entire energy production apparatus could be decentralized. Lots of small plants all feeding the grid, owned by lots of communities and individuals. How will the utility company bill me if the power comes from solar cells on my roof?

This is especially important as third world countries clamor for more energy. Sure it’s a feather in the dictator’s cap to have a nuke, but who really benefits in the long run. The citizens or Bechtel?

Like the internet, but with power? You can run your own "server/generator" but some might find it better to buy power from someone else.

That would be interesting. Then we are just in the same boat.

**Grove** · 08-16-2005, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazijoe

OK who's responsible for these outrageous gas prices?

Don't ask me

I'm getting $1.20/litre here

**ReeKorl** · 08-17-2005, 03:14 AM

You're complaining about $3/gallon, and we're sitting here in good old Blighty with prices around the $6.50/gallon mark? You've got it easy over there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwill

I generally disagree that large energy production plants are inefficient. In truth, if it were truly more efficient to produce electricity at small local plants, what would stop the electric utilities, or some new startup, from doing just that?

We've actually got a few people over here who sell electricity to the national grid - they have wind turbines and solar panels on their houses and generate more than enough during the summer months that they have a surplus, which they feed back into the grid. When winter comes and the sun practically disappears, they siphon a little off the grid to get them up to the required amount. At the end of the year, the electric board decide how much they've taken/given and eiother charge them for the extra they've taken, or give them some money for their surplus.

If everyone did this, we wouldn't need the huge plants we have these days, just some more localised ones for storage and routing.

crazijoe · 08-17-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReeKorl

You're complaining about $3/gallon, and we're sitting here

08-15-2005, 07:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
crazijoe Tech Hardware Forums Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Omaha, The Center of the Universe Posts: 7,632 OS: WinXP, Win2K3 My System	Fuel OK who's responsible for these outrageous gas prices? Last edited by crazijoe : 08-15-2005 at 07:52 PM.

08-15-2005, 08:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	Iran. I say we just go in and take over. The weapons of mass destruction excuse worked well, and I see no reason not to use it again. __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!

08-15-2005, 08:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
elf Assistant Manager, Microsoft Support Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Knoxville, TN or Austin, TX depending Posts: 6,190 OS: WinXP Pro SP2 and Slackware 10.1 My System	heck if you told me they had them I'D go invade iraq myself __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! I do not subscribe to threads, so if I stop replying, PM me with a link to your thread so I can find it again.

08-15-2005, 08:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
Geekgirl Manager, Microsoft Support Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 12,418 OS: 98SE/WinXP Home/WinXP Pro Blog Entries: 1	I hear prices will go to $3.00 a gallon ....they got us by the balls wouldn't you say, their smarter than our goverment thinks __________________ Compare NOD32 to your current antivirus and anti-spyware solution, HERE How to back up and restore the registry in Windows XP and Windows Vista How to back up and restore the registry in Windows 98/ ME / NT 4.0 / 2000 I DO NOT ACCEPT EMAILS AND WILL NOT REPLY TO THEM !!!!! TSF DOES NOT SUPPORT ASSISTANCE THROUGH EMAIL OR PRIVATE MESSAGES, PLEASE KEEP ALL QUESTIONS IN THE OPEN FORUM

08-15-2005, 09:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
40sondacurb #64 & #36 BACKBONE Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,804 OS: xp	I just hope the Hydrogen breakthrough happens before we're all bankrupt. The car companies are really scared, their actually putting money into hydrogen research, even the American companies! Saudi Arabia has already stated that they will not be able to maintain current export quotas after 2010, and that' probably not a conservative estimate. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully" -George W. Bush

08-16-2005, 11:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
MD_Willington Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: WA State & BC Posts: 587 OS: XP	What's the most abundant source of readilly available hydrogen.... Crude oil and natural gas...H2 floats to the top of the distallation column where it is captured during the cracking process. The Hydrogen economy is the new oil baron economy...nothing will change. How many of you know that quite a bit of the oil imported to the USA is from Alberta Canada? and did you know that Sinopec is looking into buying up most of that oil? More than 80% of U.S. natural gas imports come from Canada, mainly the western provinces of Alberta, British Columbia, and Saskatchewan. Why go half way around the world to get oil when it is due North? __________________ Mainboard: PCC M848ALU / ECS L7S7A2 / ECS 748-A, HDD: Western Digital 40Gb, RAM: 2-256Mb DDR266 by Micron 4x AGP Card: 3DForce4-MX440, CDRW: Liteon 52x32x52, PSU: Antec True430, CPU: XP2200+ (AXDA2200DUV3C) *It's OK to be ignorant; it's not OK to play stupid.* *Never assume you are entitled to an answer. You are not.*

08-16-2005, 12:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
DumberDrummer Cymru am byth Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,377 OS: Windows XP Pro SP2 My System	See the thing is, that hydrogen isn't very viable right now. If we depend on crude oil and natural gas for producing it, then we are in the same boat. When its all gone, its gone. Then the main way to get hydrogen in anykind of major amounts is to use electrolysis. That uses electricity. Then the energy in the electricity is converted, with loss, into potential energy stored in the bonds of H2. Now we use this H2 in engines to power motors/cars, and generate electricity (alternators). You can see the problem. Not only is it inefficient (electricity->hydrogen->electricity), but in order to make enough hydrogen, we must expend more electric power, which comes from traditional power plants (Coal, Hydro, etc...) Its a vicious cycle, and untill we find a way to get hydrogen on the cheap by, say, mining Jupiter or something, we are screwed on the hydrogen. Ethanol may be our best bet, but I believe their are energy input/output problems there as well. Also, MD is right. Even if we find another energy source, it will be controlled just as tightly. Or maybe not? If everyone can get it, regardless of geographic location, maybe competition will be extremely tough and we'll get good prices. __________________ Living with Louie dog's the only way to stay sane _____________________________________________ ... and with those words so begins my lifetime of longing for the devil's warm embrace Last edited by DumberDrummer : 08-16-2005 at 12:10 PM.

08-16-2005, 12:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
40sondacurb #64 & #36 BACKBONE Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,804 OS: xp	Well that's my point, right now it cost more energy to make hydrogen than is obtained form it, we need a knew way of gettting it. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully" -George W. Bush

08-16-2005, 01:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 4,994 OS: XP Pro My System	It always takes more energy to produce work than the work you get out of it. Some ways are just less inefficient than others. For example; a D cell battery takes 50X more energy to make than is available as stored electricity. (But you can’t carry a battery manufacturing plant around hunting for that blown fuse.) One problem that's not normally included in the discussion is that we've built massive centralized energy production plants, run by massive companies. Inherent in both is a large amount of waste. If all I need to do is provide electric power for my house (or village) the whole equation changes. I can probably do that with a small wind turbine, or bio-fuel, or solar cells (or some combination). Once the scale becomes “This plant needs to provide power for 1,000,000 homes” the options are reduced to just a few. Likewise, if I didn’t have to go up against a SUV, maybe those little streamlined solar cars would do fine. So we need to address scale as well as method when we’re talking of an energy source for the future. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas

08-16-2005, 01:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
DumberDrummer Cymru am byth Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,377 OS: Windows XP Pro SP2 My System	I realize that, and that's the price you pay because of thermodynamics. But my point about hydrogen was that it is more inefficient than some other things. I kind of like your idea though. Around here, we have lots of sun in the summer. We could probably store a lot of power in capicitators over the summer, or batteries, then run off of that during the winter. __________________ Living with Louie dog's the only way to stay sane _____________________________________________ ... and with those words so begins my lifetime of longing for the devil's warm embrace

08-16-2005, 07:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 4,994 OS: XP Pro My System	In the US, and probably most of the developed world, utilities are a regulated monopoly. They are limited to a certain percentage of profit on capital projects – 8% of 1 billion is 1000X more than 8% of 1 million. Hence the desire for big nuclear projects back in the 70’s and 80’s. Now it’s larger and larger oil and coal fired plants – again big $ projects. Sure the big energy companies could just build 1000 million dollar plants and enjoy the same profit. But that’s not really what I’m getting at. I think the entire energy production apparatus could be decentralized. Lots of small plants all feeding the grid, owned by lots of communities and individuals. How will the utility company bill me if the power comes from solar cells on my roof? This is especially important as third world countries clamor for more energy. Sure it’s a feather in the dictator’s cap to have a nuke, but who really benefits in the long run. The citizens or Bechtel? __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas

08-16-2005, 08:49 PM	#13 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	That is a great idea, and that's exactly what's going on in the town of Krefeld in Germany where I stayed. They had power windmills all over the place. No nuclear plant in sight. Just a random thought of mine- I think biofuel would probably be the most production:usage efficient means of remedying energy problems. __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!