Official lies and do we care?

yustr · 08-09-2005, 10:59 AM

I came across this statement today and I though it a good start for a discussion. Speaking about our Presidents we have:

"Washington, who could not tell a lie, to Clinton who could not tell the truth, to "W," who cannot tell the difference."

What do you think? Do our elected officials lie to us? If so, why do you think they feel they can get away with it? Is spin the same as a lie? Do you care?

Here's my definition of a lie: A deliberate misstatement of fact with the intent to deceive or obfuscate.

bry623 · 08-09-2005, 11:49 AM

Sure, our leaders lie to us all the time.

Jefferson "I have no clue why that slave's children are light skinned"
Lincoln "No, my wife isn't crazy"
FDR "Jewish camps? We've seen no camps yet"
Nixon "I'm not a crook"
Carter "I'd be a great president"
etc

Even my favorite, Ronaldus Magnus lied when in his Iran-Contra testimony:"I don't recall"....... he knew it all.

I think our leaders will deliberately steer us from the truth to protect America. What kind of panic would have been caused if JFK had not told Ameirca about the Cuban missle crisis expo facto. I think our leaders are obligated to keep us in the dark and subsequently can't help but lie to us. Clinton would be my hero if he said "Yeah, I'm 58, she's 21........ I ROCK!!!"

And it is also part of my code of honor. I place loyalty above truth. If I need to lie to protect those I love, or to maintain my loyalty, I will. The unabomber's brother turned him in, I would never turn my brother in, or open any mail from him.

Bottom line is we all lie and those with more to protect will tell lies on a more grand scale.

**40sondacurb** · 08-09-2005, 12:31 PM

They all lie steal and cheat, any one who wants tat much power isinharently corrupt in some way.

Our job isn't to pick out a good guy, it's to pick the lesser of two evils.

yustr · 08-09-2005, 12:45 PM

So as long as the intent is good it's ok to deceive? But one's intent is another's crime. So when one lie falls apart - as long as the good intent is still there - it's ok to pile another lie on top of the failed one?

And what if the lie is about the intent? (Ignoring the obvious current issue) Truman said he bombed Nagasaki "a Japanese military target" to save civilian casualties. Ignoring that lie, why did he bomb it? To end the war? Japan was realing and was about to surrender anyway - especially once Russia joined in. Was keeping Russia out of Japan Truman's real intent? If so, he lie about his intent? And if he lied about his intent, were his subsequent lies justified?

And regarding Ronny: that's probably not a lie. He was suffering the onset of alzheimers and probably honestly couldn't recall. The puppet strings can be clearly seen if you look hard enough.

yustr · 08-09-2005, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40sondacurb

Our job isn't to pick out a good guy, it's to pick the lesser of two evils.

As Jerry Garcia said: "Picking the lesser of two evils is still picking evil".

bry623 · 08-09-2005, 01:35 PM

The end justifies the means.

**40sondacurb** · 08-09-2005, 03:28 PM

justice cannot be achived through unjust means.

**MD_Willington** · 08-09-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

Japan was realing and was about to surrender anyway - especially once Russia joined in. Was keeping Russia out of Japan Truman's real intent? If so, he lie about his intent? And if he lied about his intent, were his subsequent lies justified?

I don't think so...they would fight until the last schoolboy turned himself into a pint sized human explosive...or kill themsleves first, it was ingrained into them to die before being taken alive...much like TROP...

It's public knowledge that the intent was to keep Uncle Joe out of Japan...

**Fox** · 08-09-2005, 05:35 PM

How was Japan ready to surrender? They didn't even make a motion to negotiate until the second atomic bomb dropped!

johnwill · 08-09-2005, 06:25 PM

I gotta go with Fox here, there's no way that Japan was about to surrender, it was only when they realized just how bad they were about to be destroyed they finally accepted defeat. If we had not dropped the bomb(s), a large number of our guys would have died in the invasion of Japan.

One thing was true about the WWII A-Bombs. Those two cities, and a couple more that I can't recall the names, were not bombed at all in the previous attacks. They were keeping them intact just to gauge the effect of the bombs, sort of a "test" site.

yustr · 08-09-2005, 08:34 PM

Let's just say that the military rational for dropping the two bombs is debatable.

Quote:

Eisenhower wrote in his memoir The White House Years:

"In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act? During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment, was I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives."

The real point is the propaganda (read: lies) that was used to justify the act. (BTW: the million American lives it supposedly saved is 100 times more than the military was estimating.)

Let's bring it back to a general discussion of official lies. I think we all can agree that politicians lie. What should be the ramifications when they're caught? Why are lies about personal things more consequential than lies about policy? Forgetting Clinton, remember Gary Hart? He had a fling with a blond model, lies about it and was ridiculed out of politics. Yet there are untold instances of bills being passed under false pretences, of policy being made based on known lies. Yet these don’t seem to have the same impact.

Do you agree with bry that the ends justify the means? Or should we hold our leaders to a higher standard?

~~PurpleSky~~ · 08-09-2005, 09:41 PM

they all are lieing and we are numbed like dumb ducks.

**40sondacurb** · 08-09-2005, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox

How was Japan ready to surrender? They didn't even make a motion to negotiate until the second atomic bomb dropped!

No that isn't true.

The emperor of Japan approached Stalin to negotiate a surrender.

**Fox** · 08-10-2005, 06:44 AM

Never remember hearing that in history class. Where'd you read that?

**ReeKorl** · 08-10-2005, 07:04 AM

I remember hearing something like that. Maybe you can glean some info from here.

**Fox** · 08-10-2005, 07:30 AM

Not a single mention of that in the entire article.

yustr · 08-10-2005, 07:57 AM

Back on topic....

Is it a lie to exploit (or fail to correct) a known false perception?

In an accompanying thread, Reekorl has a link to an article disputing a rise in violence attributable to video games. Assuming the writers facts are true, why do we allow the media and a few "spokes persons" to continue their rants against GTA and the like? Why don't any of our "leaders" stand up and say "That's BS, sit down and shut up until your can say something true"?

Remember: Lemmings do not commit suicide. Disney made that up but try to say that it’s not true and see what the reaction is.

08-09-2005, 10:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 4,994 OS: XP Pro My System	Official lies and do we care? I came across this statement today and I though it a good start for a discussion. Speaking about our Presidents we have: "Washington, who could not tell a lie, to Clinton who could not tell the truth, to "W," who cannot tell the difference." What do you think? Do our elected officials lie to us? If so, why do you think they feel they can get away with it? Is spin the same as a lie? Do you care? Here's my definition of a lie: A deliberate misstatement of fact with the intent to deceive or obfuscate. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas Last edited by yustr : 08-09-2005 at 11:06 AM.

08-09-2005, 11:49 AM	#2 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,621 OS: winxp pro sp2	Sure, our leaders lie to us all the time. Jefferson "I have no clue why that slave's children are light skinned" Lincoln "No, my wife isn't crazy" FDR "Jewish camps? We've seen no camps yet" Nixon "I'm not a crook" Carter "I'd be a great president" etc Even my favorite, Ronaldus Magnus lied when in his Iran-Contra testimony:"I don't recall"....... he knew it all. I think our leaders will deliberately steer us from the truth to protect America. What kind of panic would have been caused if JFK had not told Ameirca about the Cuban missle crisis expo facto. I think our leaders are obligated to keep us in the dark and subsequently can't help but lie to us. Clinton would be my hero if he said "Yeah, I'm 58, she's 21........ I ROCK!!!" And it is also part of my code of honor. I place loyalty above truth. If I need to lie to protect those I love, or to maintain my loyalty, I will. The unabomber's brother turned him in, I would never turn my brother in, or open any mail from him. Bottom line is we all lie and those with more to protect will tell lies on a more grand scale. __________________ "Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem." -Ronald Reagan

08-09-2005, 12:31 PM	#3 (permalink)
40sondacurb #64 & #36 BACKBONE Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,804 OS: xp	They all lie steal and cheat, any one who wants tat much power isinharently corrupt in some way. Our job isn't to pick out a good guy, it's to pick the lesser of two evils. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully" -George W. Bush

08-09-2005, 12:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 4,994 OS: XP Pro My System	So as long as the intent is good it's ok to deceive? But one's intent is another's crime. So when one lie falls apart - as long as the good intent is still there - it's ok to pile another lie on top of the failed one? And what if the lie is about the intent? (Ignoring the obvious current issue) Truman said he bombed Nagasaki "a Japanese military target" to save civilian casualties. Ignoring that lie, why did he bomb it? To end the war? Japan was realing and was about to surrender anyway - especially once Russia joined in. Was keeping Russia out of Japan Truman's real intent? If so, he lie about his intent? And if he lied about his intent, were his subsequent lies justified? And regarding Ronny: that's probably not a lie. He was suffering the onset of alzheimers and probably honestly couldn't recall. The puppet strings can be clearly seen if you look hard enough. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas

08-09-2005, 01:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,621 OS: winxp pro sp2	The end justifies the means. __________________ "Government is not the solution to our problem. Government is the problem." -Ronald Reagan

08-09-2005, 03:28 PM	#7 (permalink)
40sondacurb #64 & #36 BACKBONE Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,804 OS: xp	justice cannot be achived through unjust means. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully" -George W. Bush

08-09-2005, 05:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	How was Japan ready to surrender? They didn't even make a motion to negotiate until the second atomic bomb dropped! __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!

08-09-2005, 06:25 PM	#10 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 32,608 OS: XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	I gotta go with Fox here, there's no way that Japan was about to surrender, it was only when they realized just how bad they were about to be destroyed they finally accepted defeat. If we had not dropped the bomb(s), a large number of our guys would have died in the invasion of Japan. One thing was true about the WWII A-Bombs. Those two cities, and a couple more that I can't recall the names, were not bombed at all in the previous attacks. They were keeping them intact just to gauge the effect of the bombs, sort of a "test" site. __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

08-09-2005, 09:41 PM	#12 (permalink)
~~PurpleSky~~ Register user Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 2,130 OS: n/a	they all are lieing and we are numbed like dumb ducks.

08-10-2005, 06:44 AM	#14 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	Never remember hearing that in history class. Where'd you read that? __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!

08-10-2005, 07:04 AM	#15 (permalink)
ReeKorl Superhuman Computer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 6th Circle, The City of Dis, Hell Posts: 1,610 OS: WinXP Pro SP2 My System	I remember hearing something like that. Maybe you can glean some info from here. __________________ "Sorry, the number you have dialled is imaginary. Please rotate dial by 90 degrees and try again."

08-10-2005, 07:30 AM	#16 (permalink)
Fox TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: NJ Posts: 7,752 OS: XP Pro, CentOS My System	Not a single mention of that in the entire article. __________________ Antec Neo Power 500W, ABIT IP35-E, Intel E2180@2.66Ghz, Corsair XMS2 2x1GB DDR2-800, PNY 8800GT, 320GB Seagate * lazy college student alert *- If I've inadvertently ignored a thread, please Let me know about it Have I helped you solve your problem? Donate to Techsupportforums Klart Skepp!

08-10-2005, 07:57 AM	#17 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore Posts: 4,994 OS: XP Pro My System	Back on topic.... Is it a lie to exploit (or fail to correct) a known false perception? In an accompanying thread, Reekorl has a link to an article disputing a rise in violence attributable to video games. Assuming the writers facts are true, why do we allow the media and a few "spokes persons" to continue their rants against GTA and the like? Why don't any of our "leaders" stand up and say "That's BS, sit down and shut up until your can say something true"? Remember: Lemmings do not commit suicide. Disney made that up but try to say that it’s not true and see what the reaction is. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas