greenbrucelee

I totally agree.

In these days a degree is bollocks unless you are trying to get into management, I know people who haven't really got any qualifications but have experience and I know for a fact that they are more valuable to an employer than some douche with a degree who was probably stoned most of the time during his degree.

The best way to do is to get an entry level job, get some some certs whilst working and do a degree part time whilst working. But that being said a degree doesn't mean too much these days especially with all the crap degrees about like media studies etc

FreeNerd

With the cost of college elevated beyond the reach of most middle class families and the middle class eroding every year expect the degree to mean less and less in real businesses and go back to being a symbol of privilege.

Universities are on the edge of pricing themselves out of relevance, and accredited technical schools are popping up everywhere.

My advice to my son is going to be without a scholarship, pick your field and get to work early. By the time those who went to college graduate he'll have experience and a valuable skill set. With both of them commanding the same salary, the difference will be the graduate has 100k in debts to pay off.

greenbrucelee

and he will have money in his pocket and could do a degree part time at night after his work if he wanted to.

bilbus

lol. Every employer I have ever worked for required a collage degree to work in IT. Thats not to say you would be considered if you did not have field knowledge or tech skills.

Skipping collage is a very bad idea and will severally limit your job choices.

You will not be any level of management without a collage degree. If you want to be making 10$ a hour being in help desk for your whole life skip a degree.

FreeNerd

Go read some online IT job postings. 90% or more say "degree or equivalent". I have beat out guys with degrees for jobs on 2 separate occasions. The only people I know who still try to defend a degree in the IT field are those that have them and want to hold on to what they feel should be an advantage.

I have no degree, I make more now than I was told I would when I completed my degree in college. Friends of mine who stuck it out make less than I do with a degree and know less about systems administration to boot.

Technology changes so fast, that just about everything you learn in year one will be obsolete in year 4 when you graduate. If you want the degree that's fine, but earn it part time with an employer paying for it.

Unless your going to MIT that is....

Engineer Babar

I also support this idea.. An Engineering degree with a certification will be best.. As far as the technical field is concerned.. I know a lot of my senior Engineers who recently graduated.. They all prefer CCNA after doing Engineering..

FreeNerd

Note that the only ones supporting the idea are those who have degrees. The IT field is full of highly qualified individuals with and without degrees.

Get a job working support, get a few certs, let the company pay you for your degree while working and going to school part time. Sure it'll take longer than if you just went to school, but when you do graduate you'll have real world experience, certifications, and a degree.

Ask people you know how many of them got a high paying technical administrator position with just a degree and no experience.

greenbrucelee

This ^

Unfortunately in todays society a degree doesn't mean a great deal but a degree with experience does.

Trust me when I say this. An employer will take anyone who has experience and a normal education over someone who has no experience and a degree it is as simiple as that.

Would I want someone with a degree and no experience running my network or would I want someone with networking administration experience even if the were a high school drop out. I'd take the latter.

Think of it this way someone who doesn't work with CISCO gear shouldn't be going for the CCNA because it would over certify them for their experience level if someone came to me for a job and said they had the CCNA and no cisco gear experience I would refuse their application but if they did work with CISCO equipment or had job experience of it and had no certifications or qualifications I would hire them and advise them to study the CCNA.

This is how the world works today

And just to add if anyone out there is studying a degree for IT make sure your on a degree that provides a placement year in a job, make sure your doing a placement that you want to do and be prepared for the shock that IT isn't paid aswell as it was 10 years ago and never believe these adverts on TV that claim the average IT salary is 37k because it isn't unless you have atleast 5 years experience in a high level position.

bilbus

lol ccna? haha that is nothing .. its like network + but slightly harder.

37k? wow i bet those people don't have degrees

Regardless, a degree is a smart investment ... disagree if you want, but having a degree is always better then not. Plus not having a degree is just embarrassing.

FreeNerd

A degree used to be a smart investment. College is so expensive that if you don't have a scholarship or a company covering most of the cost the tuition is a huge burden.

You can't file bankruptcy on college loans... College itself is more about big business than educating students.

37k is what I was told I could make with my Network Administration degree. I took a job during school and with my support experience I surpassed that salary mark in less than a year. I am now even farther along in my career and struggling with the concept of returning to get a degree that will ultimately get me nothing more than I make now.

I will return to it one day, but for now I am too busy learning and doing every day to worry about a degree.


Conclusion::
Go to work now, get certs that are relevant to your current position and if possible attend school part time on the company dollar.

greenbrucelee

37k is what most training providers that over certify people spout as the what someone will earn in IT (in the UK they do anyway).

These places need banned.

If I could go back in time I would have worked and got certs and then my degree part time. I got myself in to loads of debt and have been paying it off for years. I would have been in better position experience wise, financially wise and more secure in my job role.

Not everyone who gets a degree gets a good paying job straight away and in some peoples cases it can take years regardless of how good a degree they got.

A degree used to be a magic qualification that secured peoples futures they don't anymore.

bilbus

Well, if you get a degree in anything, you can switch out of IT later. If you don't you will be a uneducated person looking for a crappy job. I would prefer to have a CS degree and look for a management job somewhere then just a HS degree find that IT is not working out and be SOL

I prefer to hedge my bets.

FreeNerd

True. But you'll have a years old degree you have not used in years, and while you may edge out others with no experience at all, you'll be beat by candidates with recent experience and no degree in the field.

bilbus

A degree is a degree.

If you have a old degree, you would have to have experience .. unless after collage you went traveling the world.

I would prefer to have no experience and a degree, then no experience and no degree.

You can get a degree and certs at the same time they are not exclusive.

All i am saying is you are selling your self short by skipping a degree.

greenbrucelee

we are all agreeing here just that we are crossing.

IT these days is not exclusive to people who have degrees it's only the HR departments who hire but know nothing about IT epsecially the ones who advertise for a MCSE candidate to work on a help desk.

Yes a degree can help you but regardless of your qualifications experience is king.

I know a lot of people with degrees and I can categorically state you that some of those people do not have a clue when it comes to operating in the 'real world'.

I would rather hire someone who has a bit of 'real world experience' and on the job experience rather than some rich boy who doesn't have any experience.

If I have kids and when they grow up ofcourse I want them to get a degree but I would be telling them to seriuosly consider their options before embarking on a degree especially if they wanted to work in IT.

There are so many people out there now wanting to get into IT and so many of them using braindumps and cheat sheets to pass certs to help them get into IT that this has devalued the IT field and so the wages have dropped for new starters a lot.

This is why I say get the experience and some certs first before a degree.

dadof3

Experience trumps certs and degrees.
I worked I.T. for the las vegas casinos, my last few years on the job in vegas I worked the swing shift. The company I worked for liked to hire temps and test them out, so my shift was the training shift.

Long story short, most of the temps that had numerous certs or college degrees were the biggest failures. The temps with at least 5 years of exp. were the best.

greenbrucelee

exactly my point.

Suncoast

Certainly an interesting thread. Not too long ago, it was rare to find someone with a degree and a goal towards Systems or Network Administration. Certifications were golden. I suspect employers are looking to whittle down huge lists of electronic applicants. Hmmm, If I filter out applicants without a CCNA, I get 500 remaining. Too many. If I filter on CCNA and an AS Degree, 30 matches... And those 30 get an actual human looking at them.

Of course the other elephant in the room is age. Youth is king for breaking into the IT field right now. In part due to the cost of private background checks, which cost the employer significantly more for the older potential employee.

As for experience, it is a strange fact that those that are employed in the field now will continue to find employment, even though they may not be the best employees. Those that have been victims of the economy and seek employment are considered second rate potential applicants. Which to me contradicts the logic of hiring someone who can truly appreciate a less than desirable position only after being without one for so long.

greenbrucelee

Good point although I disagree on the youth thing. I'd take a 60 year old if they knew what they were doing over some kid who thinks he knows what he is doing.

As for certs there are too many brain dumpers at the minute, some don't realise they've been cheating but most do. This makes it hard to whittle those people down.

perryny

As someone who hires consultants, and I've hired several dozen over the years, I can tell you that when I'm looking at a resume, I'm looking at experience first.

I'm going to be sending this prospective employee into my client's offices. These customers of mine are going to be evaluating this new consultant to see if he seems as qualified as the other consultants I have servicing them.

Real-world experience will give this new consultant the best shot at making a solid first impression.

After experience, I place equal weight on both college and technical training. Both show initiative towards self-improvement, discipline and an effort to excel.

My business supports small businesses exclusively. So I believe any intelligent computer tech I hire should have the mental capacity to quickly learn the systems he's been hired to support. Seeing on their resume either a college degree or certification training will help instill this confidence for me.

But then I'll conduct the interview and the story often changes dramatically.

-Robert