Getting back on Internet

jpurcell · 04-14-2006, 11:11 AM

Everyone thinks his problem is unique. I think mine is too because I couldn't find a thread that was even close to my problem. Here's the problem:

I have four computers on a router network and I moved three of them from one side of the desk that they were on to the other. When I reconnected them together and to my router and cable modem, none would go oin the net. I connected each one directly to the cable modem directly and only one of them would go on the internet. That one is the one that was not on the desk where I moved the computers to the other side. This good computer only works with the modem alone, no router.

The OS is XP.

I made no configuration changes after reconnecting these machines. I have tried various IPCONFIG commands including ipconfig/release, /renew. Release results in a set of zeros. Renew times out on the 'bad' machines but 'works' on the one good one. I am writing from the good one.

At this point I can only think of two options. One it so dump it in the lap of the ISP and the other is to call the Geek Squad. I would rather just find a solution myself, with the help of anyone who might have a clue. I have gone to many Yahoo groups and gotten no ideas except the ipconfig/releas and /renew idea from one person.

Jim

Geekgirl · 04-14-2006, 11:26 AM

This is like out of a horror show, if you call the Geek Squad it will be

So the router is not working at all. Have you checked the connections from the router to the wall and modem? Are any of the lights lit on the router?
What he heck is on the other side of the desk that you moved these computers to.....lol

jpurcell · 04-14-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geekgirl

This is like out of a horror show, if you call the Geek Squad it will be

So the router is not working at all. Have you checked the connections from the router to the wall and modem? Are any of the lights lit on the router?
What he heck is on the other side of the desk that you moved these computers to.....lol

The router may not be malfunctioning, I took it out of the mix and three of four machines can't get on the net. So we have a cable modem working on one machine but not on three others. Re: Geeg Squad, do you think that they are bad news?

Jim

Geekgirl · 04-14-2006, 02:27 PM

When you are using just a modem and 1 system, your ISP settings are configured into the system connected to the modem. When you are using a router, you dont need to put in these settings coz you are obtaining an IP automatically. Thus, the other 3 that will not connect via just the modem is because the settings are not configured into the system they are set to obtain auto when in actuality they need set.
Does that make sense

The system that can connect via modem, open the Network connections and jot down the settings. Now take one of the others that do not connect now and connect to the modem using the settings you just took note of.

Is there power to the router? Physically look at it and tell me if you see lights. Make sure the power is plugged in to the wall socket.

**johnwill** · 04-14-2006, 06:09 PM

Actually, if you power cycle the modem between connecting another device, I think you'll find it connects just fine. The modem retains the MAC address of the connected device, and if you change the connected device, you MUST cycle power to the modem.

Try this:

Turn of everything, modem, router, machines.

Connect the modem to the WAN (Internet) connection of the router. Connect one machine to one of the LAN ports on the router.
Turn on the modem, wait for it to stabilize.
Turn on the router, wait for two minutes.
Boot the connected machine, you should be connected.

jpurcell · 04-15-2006, 11:26 AM

>Actually, if you power cycle the modem between connecting another device, I think you'll find it connects just fine. The modem retains the MAC address of the connected device, and if you change the connected device, you MUST cycle power to the modem.

Unfortunately I have tried this. Each time I try a different setup I turn off everything, wait for a bit then tunr on the cable modem. Then I turn on the machine it is connected to. One of four machines works to get on the internet. The weirdest thing that the problem started after I moved the computers from one side of the computer desk to the other. No changes in connections, etc.

The original setup had a router with the cable modem connected to it as well as the four machines. Anytime I make changes I power down the router and the machines ard and then power up the routeer, then each machine to force them into the network sequence that I want.

Right now no machine workes with the router, and onoy one works with the bable modem alone, after powering everything down and back up so that the devices can configure themselves.

Jim

**johnwill** · 04-15-2006, 02:24 PM

You have to power cycle the modem as well.

Let's take one problem at a time.

Connect one of the non-working machine directly to the modem, power everything off, turn on the modem, the after it syncs, turn on the machine.

Start, Run, CMD to open a DOS window and type:

IPCONFIG /ALL >C:\RESULT.TXT

Open C:\RESULT.TXT with Notepad and copy/paste the entire results here.

jpurcell · 04-15-2006, 04:27 PM

I know that when devices auto configure they must be powered down to change the configuration.

jpurcell · 04-15-2006, 05:06 PM

[quote=johnwill]
You have to power cycle the modem as well.

I know that and did it. I always power everything down when I change the setup.

>Let's take one problem at a time.
Connect one of the non-working machine directly to the modem, power everything off, turn on the modem, the after it syncs, turn on the machine.

Yep, that is what I have been doing. Below is the ipconfig/all listing

snip----
Listed below is the contents of ipconfig/all. I also peformed the /release and the /renew option. Release results the IP address is 169.254.157.224. Actually that was zeros before. /Renew just times out.

Jim

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : VALUED-20606295
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8139/810X Family Fast Ethernet NIC
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-E0-18-78-1A-73
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
Autoconfiguration IP Address. . . : 169.254.157.224
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.0.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :

Whan I use /release then /renew on ipconfig it times out.

TNX for your reply.

Jim

**johnwill** · 04-16-2006, 10:55 AM

On this machine, try this:

Run this Automated WINSOCK Fix for XP, reboot and test.

If it still doesn't work, try these commands:

TCP/IP stack repair options for use with Windows XP with SP2.

For these commands, Start, Run, CMD to open a command prompt.

Reset WINSOCK entries to installation defaults: netsh winsock reset catalog

Reset TCP/IP stack to installation defaults. netsh int ip reset reset.log

jpurcell · 04-17-2006, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnwill

On this machine, try this:
Run this Automated WINSOCK Fix for XP, reboot and test.

I didn't know what the above was until I clicked on it but on the good machine. It would have helped if you had said that it was a program to download.

>If it still doesn't work, try these commands:

I still don't know what this is or the lines below.

Jim

TCP/IP stack repair options for use with Windows XP with SP2.

For these commands, Start, Run, CMD to open a command prompt.

Reset WINSOCK entries to installation defaults: netsh winsock reset catalog

Reset TCP/IP stack to installation defaults. netsh int ip reset reset.log

**JamesO** · 04-18-2006, 03:54 AM

Maybe I am missing something here??

If the machines each work fine connected directly to the modem, but not when connected to the router, it would seem the problem may be with the router and DHCP??

Make, model and firmware version of the router?
Type of Internet connection? Cable or DSL?
Make and model of modem?

Have you tried to reset the router to factory defalts and checked for firmware updates?

If you are really stuck, you could try static IP addresses for the machines, but you should not need to do this.

JamesO

jpurcell · 04-18-2006, 10:03 AM

>Maybe I am missing something here??

You are! There are four machines, three were on one computer desk, the fourth on the other desk, both in the same room.

All computers WERE connected to the internet via a router and a cble moedm, wll working fine. I moved the three computers to the other side of the desk that they were on which required removing the bables. When I reconnected the bables to the router those three machines would not go on the ineternet. So I bypassed the router and connected the modem directly to one of the three machines, still no internet. I tried the modem cable on the machine that was on the other desk and that one wortked, it'w the one I am on now.

>Have you tried to reset the router to factory defalts and checked for firmware updates?

Yes, I shut everything down, connected the modem to one of the 'bad' machines and turned that machine on. I ran ipconfig/all and posted the result in a previous message in this thread. Then I ran the /release opion on ip config, that worked. Then I rean /renew and that just timed out.

>If you are really stuck, you could try static IP addresses for the machines, but you should not need to do this.

I am not getting far enough to set static IP addresses and don't know how to do that anyway. The dymamic IP address that my ISP gives me hardly ever changes anyway.

Jim

**JamesO** · 04-18-2006, 07:39 PM

If all 3 of the machines that cannot connect to the Internet via the router cannot connect to when plugged directly into the modem, I would almost have to say you somehow have issues with the NIC's in the 3 problem machines.

Given NIC's cards are around $15 these days, might buy one and try it in a problem machine to see what happens?

JamesO

**johnwill** · 04-19-2006, 10:34 AM

I can't really believe that three NIC's died at once, that's why I was looking for other answers.

One possible answer. Some ISP's used to lock your service to a MAC address. It was standard in those cases to clone the MAC address to the router so that it looked like the machine in question.

The fact that only one machine out of four works sounds like this, but I'm at a loss to explain why the router no longer works...

jpurcell · 04-20-2006, 03:43 PM

[quote=johnwill]I can't really believe that three NIC's died at once,

Yes, and I have similar doubts about most other factors. But of course the problem DOES exist, and I haven't gotten any ideas and so far neither has anyone else here or on several Yahoo computer groups.

> Some ISP's used to lock your service to a MAC address.

That seems unlikely too, but I am getting ready to dump the problem in their lap. I think maybe had they done that I'd have known before I made the changes. They'd have gotten a lot of calls. And it would seem that the working machine should also have been affected, but of course it is working and thus was NOT affected.

>The fact that only one machine out of four works sounds like this,

Well, I haven't tried the router too ofen since the problem started, I wanted to keep the elements involved to a minimum.

Well, i guess I will have to call my ISP and get help from them. When I first got cable broadband I had to get help from them, but not since. So I guess I deserve some service. :-)

Jim

jpurcell · 04-28-2006, 02:59 PM

[quote=jpurcell][quote=johnwill]I can't really believe that three NIC's died at once,

Just an update. The problem with my system has been solved. I won't try to restate it, if you car you probably have read this thread.

Someone mentioned the Windows firewall as a possible culpret. And I have had problems with software firewalls, to the poijnt where I gave up on ZA.
I checked the 'good machine' and it has the XP firewall active. So I had my dowbts. But I went to the bad machines to check wheter XP firewall was turne on. I couldn't even find it. But what I did was to unload all items on the task bar near the clock, the startup items. I just closed them individually. They included an AV program. Without rebooting I clicked IE and was immediately on the internet.

So being very encouraged I switched to another of the 'bad computers' and found that they could internet too. I had not checked all the machines a lot of times since I did not have the KVM conneted and it was a nuisance to keep moving the monitor and kbd/mouse. Now this machine, with no changes was working on the internet.

I had turned of the first machine, so I moved the monirot and kbd/mouse back and rebooted. The apparantly offending startup sofware was there again but I was still able to get on the internet. So this is celarly one of those things that I am not clear on what actually fixed the problem.

It reminds me of the story about the orginal computer bug, what wasn't even software. It was a real bug, in the entymology sense. It had gotten stuck on an alarm bell clapper so that they people did not hear an alarm. And they missed some big problem or something. In my case maybe the bug got unglued and let me get back on the internet. I more or less doubt that just shutting down that start up software actually cured the problem. What did? I have no idea. But it took me over a week to fix it.

Jim

04-14-2006, 11:11 AM	#1 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	Getting back on Internet Everyone thinks his problem is unique. I think mine is too because I couldn't find a thread that was even close to my problem. Here's the problem: I have four computers on a router network and I moved three of them from one side of the desk that they were on to the other. When I reconnected them together and to my router and cable modem, none would go oin the net. I connected each one directly to the cable modem directly and only one of them would go on the internet. That one is the one that was not on the desk where I moved the computers to the other side. This good computer only works with the modem alone, no router. The OS is XP. I made no configuration changes after reconnecting these machines. I have tried various IPCONFIG commands including ipconfig/release, /renew. Release results in a set of zeros. Renew times out on the 'bad' machines but 'works' on the one good one. I am writing from the good one. At this point I can only think of two options. One it so dump it in the lap of the ISP and the other is to call the Geek Squad. I would rather just find a solution myself, with the help of anyone who might have a clue. I have gone to many Yahoo groups and gotten no ideas except the ipconfig/releas and /renew idea from one person. Jim

04-14-2006, 11:26 AM	#2 (permalink)
Geekgirl Assistant Manager, Microsoft Support Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Six-burgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 14,164 OS: XP Home SP3/XP Pro SP3/Vista Ultimate SP2/Windows 7 Professional	This is like out of a horror show, if you call the Geek Squad it will be So the router is not working at all. Have you checked the connections from the router to the wall and modem? Are any of the lights lit on the router? What he heck is on the other side of the desk that you moved these computers to.....lol __________________ Compare NOD32 to your current antivirus and anti-spyware solution, HERE How to back up and restore the registry in Windows XP and Windows Vista Or Windows 7 How to back up and restore the registry in Windows 98/ ME / NT 4.0 / 2000 I DO NOT ACCEPT EMAILS AND WILL NOT REPLY TO THEM !!!!! TSF DOES NOT SUPPORT ASSISTANCE THROUGH EMAIL OR PRIVATE MESSAGES, PLEASE KEEP ALL QUESTIONS IN THE OPEN FORUM *The Pittsburgh Steelers - 6 X Superbowl Champions !!!!!!!* *The Pittsburgh Penguins - 2009 Stanley Cup Champions !!!!!!!*

04-14-2006, 02:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
Geekgirl Assistant Manager, Microsoft Support Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Six-burgh, Pennsylvania Posts: 14,164 OS: XP Home SP3/XP Pro SP3/Vista Ultimate SP2/Windows 7 Professional	When you are using just a modem and 1 system, your ISP settings are configured into the system connected to the modem. When you are using a router, you dont need to put in these settings coz you are obtaining an IP automatically. Thus, the other 3 that will not connect via just the modem is because the settings are not configured into the system they are set to obtain auto when in actuality they need set. Does that make sense The system that can connect via modem, open the Network connections and jot down the settings. Now take one of the others that do not connect now and connect to the modem using the settings you just took note of. Is there power to the router? Physically look at it and tell me if you see lights. Make sure the power is plugged in to the wall socket. __________________ Compare NOD32 to your current antivirus and anti-spyware solution, HERE How to back up and restore the registry in Windows XP and Windows Vista Or Windows 7 How to back up and restore the registry in Windows 98/ ME / NT 4.0 / 2000 I DO NOT ACCEPT EMAILS AND WILL NOT REPLY TO THEM !!!!! TSF DOES NOT SUPPORT ASSISTANCE THROUGH EMAIL OR PRIVATE MESSAGES, PLEASE KEEP ALL QUESTIONS IN THE OPEN FORUM *The Pittsburgh Steelers - 6 X Superbowl Champions !!!!!!!* *The Pittsburgh Penguins - 2009 Stanley Cup Champions !!!!!!!*

04-14-2006, 06:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 41,607 OS: Windows 7, XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	Actually, if you power cycle the modem between connecting another device, I think you'll find it connects just fine. The modem retains the MAC address of the connected device, and if you change the connected device, you MUST cycle power to the modem. Try this: Turn of everything, modem, router, machines. Connect the modem to the WAN (Internet) connection of the router. Connect one machine to one of the LAN ports on the router. Turn on the modem, wait for it to stabilize. Turn on the router, wait for two minutes. Boot the connected machine, you should be connected. __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience Last edited by johnwill; 04-14-2006 at 06:11 PM.

04-15-2006, 02:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 41,607 OS: Windows 7, XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	You have to power cycle the modem as well. Let's take one problem at a time. Connect one of the non-working machine directly to the modem, power everything off, turn on the modem, the after it syncs, turn on the machine. Start, Run, CMD to open a DOS window and type: IPCONFIG /ALL >C:\RESULT.TXT Open C:\RESULT.TXT with Notepad and copy/paste the entire results here. __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

04-15-2006, 11:26 AM	#6 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	>Actually, if you power cycle the modem between connecting another device, I think you'll find it connects just fine. The modem retains the MAC address of the connected device, and if you change the connected device, you MUST cycle power to the modem. Unfortunately I have tried this. Each time I try a different setup I turn off everything, wait for a bit then tunr on the cable modem. Then I turn on the machine it is connected to. One of four machines works to get on the internet. The weirdest thing that the problem started after I moved the computers from one side of the computer desk to the other. No changes in connections, etc. The original setup had a router with the cable modem connected to it as well as the four machines. Anytime I make changes I power down the router and the machines ard and then power up the routeer, then each machine to force them into the network sequence that I want. Right now no machine workes with the router, and onoy one works with the bable modem alone, after powering everything down and back up so that the devices can configure themselves. Jim

04-15-2006, 04:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	I DID power down the modem. I know that when devices auto configure they must be powered down to change the configuration.

04-15-2006, 05:06 PM	#9 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	[quote=johnwill] You have to power cycle the modem as well. I know that and did it. I always power everything down when I change the setup. >Let's take one problem at a time. Connect one of the non-working machine directly to the modem, power everything off, turn on the modem, the after it syncs, turn on the machine. Yep, that is what I have been doing. Below is the ipconfig/all listing snip---- Listed below is the contents of ipconfig/all. I also peformed the /release and the /renew option. Release results the IP address is 169.254.157.224. Actually that was zeros before. /Renew just times out. Jim Windows IP Configuration Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : VALUED-20606295 Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . : Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection: Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8139/810X Family Fast Ethernet NIC Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-E0-18-78-1A-73 Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes Autoconfiguration IP Address. . . : 169.254.157.224 Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.0.0 Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : Whan I use /release then /renew on ipconfig it times out. TNX for your reply. Jim

04-16-2006, 10:55 AM	#10 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 41,607 OS: Windows 7, XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	On this machine, try this: Run this Automated WINSOCK Fix for XP, reboot and test. If it still doesn't work, try these commands: TCP/IP stack repair options for use with Windows XP with SP2. For these commands, Start, Run, CMD to open a command prompt. Reset WINSOCK entries to installation defaults: netsh winsock reset catalog Reset TCP/IP stack to installation defaults. netsh int ip reset reset.log __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

04-18-2006, 03:54 AM	#12 (permalink)
JamesO Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA USA Posts: 2,289 OS: 98SE, W2k Pro, XP Pro	Maybe I am missing something here?? If the machines each work fine connected directly to the modem, but not when connected to the router, it would seem the problem may be with the router and DHCP?? Make, model and firmware version of the router? Type of Internet connection? Cable or DSL? Make and model of modem? Have you tried to reset the router to factory defalts and checked for firmware updates? If you are really stuck, you could try static IP addresses for the machines, but you should not need to do this. JamesO

04-18-2006, 10:03 AM	#13 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	>Maybe I am missing something here?? You are! There are four machines, three were on one computer desk, the fourth on the other desk, both in the same room. All computers WERE connected to the internet via a router and a cble moedm, wll working fine. I moved the three computers to the other side of the desk that they were on which required removing the bables. When I reconnected the bables to the router those three machines would not go on the ineternet. So I bypassed the router and connected the modem directly to one of the three machines, still no internet. I tried the modem cable on the machine that was on the other desk and that one wortked, it'w the one I am on now. >Have you tried to reset the router to factory defalts and checked for firmware updates? Yes, I shut everything down, connected the modem to one of the 'bad' machines and turned that machine on. I ran ipconfig/all and posted the result in a previous message in this thread. Then I ran the /release opion on ip config, that worked. Then I rean /renew and that just timed out. >If you are really stuck, you could try static IP addresses for the machines, but you should not need to do this. I am not getting far enough to set static IP addresses and don't know how to do that anyway. The dymamic IP address that my ISP gives me hardly ever changes anyway. Jim

04-18-2006, 07:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
JamesO Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA USA Posts: 2,289 OS: 98SE, W2k Pro, XP Pro	If all 3 of the machines that cannot connect to the Internet via the router cannot connect to when plugged directly into the modem, I would almost have to say you somehow have issues with the NIC's in the 3 problem machines. Given NIC's cards are around $15 these days, might buy one and try it in a problem machine to see what happens? JamesO

04-19-2006, 10:34 AM	#15 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 41,607 OS: Windows 7, XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	I can't really believe that three NIC's died at once, that's why I was looking for other answers. One possible answer. Some ISP's used to lock your service to a MAC address. It was standard in those cases to clone the MAC address to the router so that it looked like the machine in question. The fact that only one machine out of four works sounds like this, but I'm at a loss to explain why the router no longer works... __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

04-20-2006, 03:43 PM	#16 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	[quote=johnwill]I can't really believe that three NIC's died at once, Yes, and I have similar doubts about most other factors. But of course the problem DOES exist, and I haven't gotten any ideas and so far neither has anyone else here or on several Yahoo computer groups. > Some ISP's used to lock your service to a MAC address. That seems unlikely too, but I am getting ready to dump the problem in their lap. I think maybe had they done that I'd have known before I made the changes. They'd have gotten a lot of calls. And it would seem that the working machine should also have been affected, but of course it is working and thus was NOT affected. >The fact that only one machine out of four works sounds like this, Well, I haven't tried the router too ofen since the problem started, I wanted to keep the elements involved to a minimum. Well, i guess I will have to call my ISP and get help from them. When I first got cable broadband I had to get help from them, but not since. So I guess I deserve some service. :-) Jim

04-28-2006, 02:59 PM	#17 (permalink)
jpurcell Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 10 OS: XP	[quote=jpurcell][quote=johnwill]I can't really believe that three NIC's died at once, Just an update. The problem with my system has been solved. I won't try to restate it, if you car you probably have read this thread. Someone mentioned the Windows firewall as a possible culpret. And I have had problems with software firewalls, to the poijnt where I gave up on ZA. I checked the 'good machine' and it has the XP firewall active. So I had my dowbts. But I went to the bad machines to check wheter XP firewall was turne on. I couldn't even find it. But what I did was to unload all items on the task bar near the clock, the startup items. I just closed them individually. They included an AV program. Without rebooting I clicked IE and was immediately on the internet. So being very encouraged I switched to another of the 'bad computers' and found that they could internet too. I had not checked all the machines a lot of times since I did not have the KVM conneted and it was a nuisance to keep moving the monitor and kbd/mouse. Now this machine, with no changes was working on the internet. I had turned of the first machine, so I moved the monirot and kbd/mouse back and rebooted. The apparantly offending startup sofware was there again but I was still able to get on the internet. So this is celarly one of those things that I am not clear on what actually fixed the problem. It reminds me of the story about the orginal computer bug, what wasn't even software. It was a real bug, in the entymology sense. It had gotten stuck on an alarm bell clapper so that they people did not hear an alarm. And they missed some big problem or something. In my case maybe the bug got unglued and let me get back on the internet. I more or less doubt that just shutting down that start up software actually cured the problem. What did? I have no idea. But it took me over a week to fix it. Jim