Cable internet issue's

tim255 · 05-11-2005, 04:41 PM

Hi, i live in Illinois and have Charter pipeline "high speed" internet. i play alot of call of duty and surf the web. My connection used to be great and now it seems to be suffering. Is there any way that i can determine where the latency in my connection is from. i.e. computer, a wireless router, or my provider?? im using an intel(R)PRO/100 ve connected to a Linksys Wireless-G Broadband Router connected to a SURFboard SB4100 Cable Modem. The computer im using is plugged into the back of the router and is not running wirelessly....the router is used for a laptop and a wireless game adapter.

**Terrister** · 05-11-2005, 04:50 PM

1st do you know how fast your internet connection should be?

Go to http://www.broadbandreports.com/stest and test your connection speed. Might want to do it several times to get a good average.

If it seems way to slow. Plug your computer into the cable modem, power cycle the modem and do an ipconfig or winipcfg for a new ip address and test again. See if there is any change. If it much faster without the router, the router may be setup incorrectly or have a problem.

If it is still slow connected to the router, it sounds like Charter's problem.

tim255 · 05-11-2005, 05:17 PM

thanks for the reply, i used the config and ran tests at cnet bandwidth speed test and results were close to the same with or without the router...ran mutilple tests and the results ranged from 375kbps to around1374kbps. Its "advertised" at 3mbps and up untill awhile ago it was running between 3 to 4 mbps. Is there anything Charter can do about it or is it that Charter is getting too many users for the network??

**Terrister** · 05-11-2005, 07:35 PM

I would tell them what you have told us and see if they can explain the slowdown. I use charter internet and have always had them fix any problem I have called them about. Sometimes you get a real slow help person and have to answer all there stupid questions before you get to someone that can really help you.

They do not like to support you behind a router. They may ask you to connect directly to the modem.

tim255 · 05-13-2005, 06:08 PM

ok so i spent an hour on the phone with a service tech and did all of there tests!!!! they then sent a service guy out to investigate the problem, he put in a new cable drop to the house and did readings on the lines and said everything is good. I got on my game today and the pings were out of hand again. I then called the tech support again and he says he doesnt see anything wrong on Charters end. Is there anything i can do to see if its a setting issue with my computer/cable modem itself? or see where my connection is getting hung up??

**JamesO** · 05-13-2005, 08:33 PM

Start, Run, type "cmd" then press enter.
In the black box type "ipconfig /all > c:\ipconfig.txt"

Go to my computer, click on the C drive, open c:\ipconfig.txt and then copy this info for the machine and post it back here.

Start, Run, type "cmd" then press enter.
In the black box type "ping www.yahoo.com > c:\ping.txt"

Go to my computer, click on the C drive, open c:\ping.txt and then copy this info for the machine and post it back here.

Start, Run, type "cmd" then press enter.
In the black box type ping "tracert www.yahoo.com > c:\tracert.txt"

Go to my computer, click on the C drive, open c:\tracert.txt and then copy this info for the machine and post it back here for review and comment.

I am interested to see what you network latency is and where it is in the network. My guess is your cable company is oversubscribing their service and latency is becoming a problem. Latency will also reduce you speed test performance quite a bit.

JamesO

**Terrister** · 05-14-2005, 07:15 PM

I would also do a tracert to your game server. This should show where the problems are. Post that along with the others.

tim255 · 05-15-2005, 01:41 AM

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : jackandcheryl

Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :

Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid

IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : mad.wi.charter.com

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : mad.wi.charter.com

Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network Connection

Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0E-A6-70-28-6D

Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes

Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes

IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.100

Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0

Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1

DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 24.196.64.53

68.115.71.53

24.159.193.40

Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:46:21 PM

Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Sunday, May 15, 2005 5:46:21 PM

Tracing route to www.yahoo.akadns.net [68.142.226.51]

over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1

2 10 ms 9 ms 12 ms 10.40.128.1

3 * * * Request timed out.

4 * * * Request timed out.

5 * * * Request timed out.

6 * * * Request timed out.

7 * * * Request timed out.

8 * * * Request timed out.

9 * * * Request timed out.

10 * * * Request timed out.

11 * * * Request timed out.

12 * * * Request timed out.

13 * * * Request timed out.

14 * * * Request timed out.

15 * * * Request timed out.

16 * * * Request timed out.

17 * * * Request timed out.

18 * * * Request timed out.

19 * * * Request timed out.

20 * * * Request timed out.

21 * * * Request timed out.

22 * * * Request timed out.

23 * * * Request timed out.

24 * * * Request timed out.

25 * * * Request timed out.

26 * * * Request timed out.

27 * * * Request timed out.

28 * * * Request timed out.

29 * * * Request timed out.

30 * * * Request timed out.

Trace complete.

Tracing route to server1.cheapcodservers.com [67.19.39.171]

over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1

2 12 ms 6 ms 10 ms 10.40.128.1

3 * * * Request timed out.

4 * * * Request timed out.

5 * * * Request timed out.

6 * * * Request timed out.

7 * * * Request timed out.

8 * * * Request timed out.

9 * * * Request timed out.

10 * * * Request timed out.

11 * * * Request timed out.

12 * * * Request timed out.

13 * * * Request timed out.

14 * * * Request timed out.

15 * * * Request timed out.

16 * * * Request timed out.

17 * * * Request timed out.

18 * * * Request timed out.

19 * * * Request timed out.

20 * * * Request timed out.

21 * * * Request timed out.

22 * * * Request timed out.

23 * * * Request timed out.

24 * * * Request timed out.

25 * * * Request timed out.

26 * * * Request timed out.

27 * * * Request timed out.

28 * * * Request timed out.

29 * * * Request timed out.

30 * * * Request timed out.

Trace complete.

**JamesO** · 05-15-2005, 06:15 AM

Were you able to ping www.yahoo.com? at the time of the tracert?

Was your internet connectivity up and down at the time of these tracert's?

I assume you had Internet connectivity as the DNS resolved to the Yahoo IP address.

It appears that the IP address 10.40.128.1 is the first network hop on the other side of your connection at Charter Cable. Latency in the 2 tracert' was good at an average of 10-12 ms.

It appears that this is the baseling IP address on the DOCSIS gear at the Charter cable headend that has never been reconfigured to a public address in the Charter Cable IP pool. The 10.xxx.xxx.xxx address are considered Black Hole or unroutable addresses from my understanding. I have seen vendors use these Black Hole addresses on point to point connections as the default when the equipment is shipped, however, for Network Management and other reasons, they are usually changed to public addresses within the service providers pool during installation and configuration.

Now here is my take, if you had Internet connectivity when you did the tracert's, then Charter is blocking IP route tracing in their network, not good and not common practice. More likely by accident and/or lack of proper network design and configuration.

You will never know where network problems are if you cannot perform an end to end IP Route Trace. Looks like you may be back on the phone to your providers Customer Care Manager and/or Level 3 support, bypassing the folks that answer the help desk phone!

Good luck.

JamesO

**Terrister** · 05-15-2005, 11:17 AM

I am on Charter in Georgia and I get the same thing when I tracert these addresses. Guess they set it up this way all over?

**JamesO** · 05-15-2005, 02:18 PM

Unfortunately, not a good enough answer for me, if I had their service I would be pushing hard to get the Trace Route enabled and I would want to know why it is not!

I have worked for large ISP's and this is something we would not disable, additionally, as the ISP we needed this function in order to troubleshoot network problems both internally and for the customer base.

Just my view of things!

JamesO

**Terrister** · 05-15-2005, 07:20 PM

This used to work on my service. I might have to have a word with the Tech team at Charter. Does seem like a stupid thing to have this disabled.

**johnwill** · 05-16-2005, 04:13 PM

I use Tracert regularly, I'd be MIGHTY unhappy if Comcast disabled it.

tim255 · 05-16-2005, 08:12 PM

So i called Charter and got the run around when inquiring about trace route and my internet still being of poor quality. Unfortunately they are the only service in town that has anything higher than dial up. Am i S.O.L. on this?? and how hard would it be to have them enable trace route? Would they have to do it system wide or only per ip??

tim255 · 05-16-2005, 08:17 PM

i dont know how they can tell me everything is running fine when using their speedtest tool and i get this:

TCP/Web100 Network Diagnostic Tool v5.2.1e
DO NOT USE YOUR CONNECTION WHILE TEST IS RUNNING
click START to begin
Preparing Speedtest . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Done
running 10s outbound test (upload) . . . . . 186.56Kb/s
running 10s inbound test (download) . . . . . . 189.17kb/s

Your speed is 3.43 times faster than 56Kb dialup

Your PC is connected to a Cable/DSL modem

click START to re-test

3 meg service running at 189 kb/s

**JamesO** · 05-16-2005, 08:48 PM

Run an extended ping to 10.40.128.1 (ping 10.40.128.1 -t) and to yahoo (ping www.yahoo.com -t) at the same time and see what is up.

Open 2 seperate DOS prompt windows, Start, Run, cmd

If you see drops and timestamps upwards of 100 ms, then this IS a problem. Network Latency, which colors speedtest results, well it actually reduces the speed of your link as packets are held in buffers!

Sounds like you need to speak with the Manager or "Customer Care" regarding these issues.

Should only be a few keystrokes to "Properly" configure the routers to allow Trace Routes to pass, assuming they know what they are doing?

And when will they properly set up their network without "Black Hole" addresses! This may be part of what is blocking the Trace Routes.

JamesO

tim255 · 05-16-2005, 08:55 PM

would a black hole detect set to yes on TCP Optimizer do anything for me?

**johnwill** · 05-17-2005, 03:15 PM

Nope, and I don't suggest you turn it on. It can adversely affect performance, especially on a network connection with lots of dropped packets.

When enabled, causes TCP to try to detect "Black Hole" routers while doing Path MTU Discovery. A "Black Hole" router does not return ICMP Destination Unreachable messages when it needs to fragment an IP datagram with the Don't Fragment bit set. TCP depends on receiving these messages to perform Path MTU Discovery. With this feature enabled, TCP will try to send segments without the Don't Fragment bit set if several retransmissions of a segment go unacknowledged. If the segment is acknowledged as a result, the MSS will be decreased and the Don't Fragment bit will be set in future packets on the connection. Enabling black hole detection increases the maximum number of retransmissions performed for a given segment.

05-11-2005, 04:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	Cable internet issue's Hi, i live in Illinois and have Charter pipeline "high speed" internet. i play alot of call of duty and surf the web. My connection used to be great and now it seems to be suffering. Is there any way that i can determine where the latency in my connection is from. i.e. computer, a wireless router, or my provider?? im using an intel(R)PRO/100 ve connected to a Linksys Wireless-G Broadband Router connected to a SURFboard SB4100 Cable Modem. The computer im using is plugged into the back of the router and is not running wirelessly....the router is used for a laptop and a wireless game adapter.

05-14-2005, 07:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
Terrister Moderator Hardware Forum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 7,098 OS: Xp	I would also do a tracert to your game server. This should show where the problems are. Post that along with the others. __________________

05-15-2005, 06:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
JamesO Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA USA Posts: 2,289 OS: 98SE, W2k Pro, XP Pro	Were you able to ping www.yahoo.com? at the time of the tracert? Was your internet connectivity up and down at the time of these tracert's? I assume you had Internet connectivity as the DNS resolved to the Yahoo IP address. It appears that the IP address 10.40.128.1 is the first network hop on the other side of your connection at Charter Cable. Latency in the 2 tracert' was good at an average of 10-12 ms. It appears that this is the baseling IP address on the DOCSIS gear at the Charter cable headend that has never been reconfigured to a public address in the Charter Cable IP pool. The 10.xxx.xxx.xxx address are considered Black Hole or unroutable addresses from my understanding. I have seen vendors use these Black Hole addresses on point to point connections as the default when the equipment is shipped, however, for Network Management and other reasons, they are usually changed to public addresses within the service providers pool during installation and configuration. Now here is my take, if you had Internet connectivity when you did the tracert's, then Charter is blocking IP route tracing in their network, not good and not common practice. More likely by accident and/or lack of proper network design and configuration. You will never know where network problems are if you cannot perform an end to end IP Route Trace. Looks like you may be back on the phone to your providers Customer Care Manager and/or Level 3 support, bypassing the folks that answer the help desk phone! Good luck. JamesO Last edited by JamesO; 05-15-2005 at 06:19 AM.

05-15-2005, 11:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
Terrister Moderator Hardware Forum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 7,098 OS: Xp	I am on Charter in Georgia and I get the same thing when I tracert these addresses. Guess they set it up this way all over? __________________

05-15-2005, 07:20 PM	#12 (permalink)
Terrister Moderator Hardware Forum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 7,098 OS: Xp	This used to work on my service. I might have to have a word with the Tech team at Charter. Does seem like a stupid thing to have this disabled. __________________

05-11-2005, 04:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
Terrister Moderator Hardware Forum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 7,098 OS: Xp	1st do you know how fast your internet connection should be? Go to http://www.broadbandreports.com/stest and test your connection speed. Might want to do it several times to get a good average. If it seems way to slow. Plug your computer into the cable modem, power cycle the modem and do an ipconfig or winipcfg for a new ip address and test again. See if there is any change. If it much faster without the router, the router may be setup incorrectly or have a problem. If it is still slow connected to the router, it sounds like Charter's problem.

05-11-2005, 05:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	thanks for the reply, i used the config and ran tests at cnet bandwidth speed test and results were close to the same with or without the router...ran mutilple tests and the results ranged from 375kbps to around1374kbps. Its "advertised" at 3mbps and up untill awhile ago it was running between 3 to 4 mbps. Is there anything Charter can do about it or is it that Charter is getting too many users for the network??

05-11-2005, 07:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
Terrister Moderator Hardware Forum Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: West Georgia, USA Posts: 7,098 OS: Xp	I would tell them what you have told us and see if they can explain the slowdown. I use charter internet and have always had them fix any problem I have called them about. Sometimes you get a real slow help person and have to answer all there stupid questions before you get to someone that can really help you. They do not like to support you behind a router. They may ask you to connect directly to the modem.

05-13-2005, 06:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	ok so i spent an hour on the phone with a service tech and did all of there tests!!!! they then sent a service guy out to investigate the problem, he put in a new cable drop to the house and did readings on the lines and said everything is good. I got on my game today and the pings were out of hand again. I then called the tech support again and he says he doesnt see anything wrong on Charters end. Is there anything i can do to see if its a setting issue with my computer/cable modem itself? or see where my connection is getting hung up??

05-13-2005, 08:33 PM	#6 (permalink)
JamesO Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA USA Posts: 2,289 OS: 98SE, W2k Pro, XP Pro	Start, Run, type "cmd" then press enter. In the black box type "ipconfig /all > c:\ipconfig.txt" Go to my computer, click on the C drive, open c:\ipconfig.txt and then copy this info for the machine and post it back here. Start, Run, type "cmd" then press enter. In the black box type "ping www.yahoo.com > c:\ping.txt" Go to my computer, click on the C drive, open c:\ping.txt and then copy this info for the machine and post it back here. Start, Run, type "cmd" then press enter. In the black box type ping "tracert www.yahoo.com > c:\tracert.txt" Go to my computer, click on the C drive, open c:\tracert.txt and then copy this info for the machine and post it back here for review and comment. I am interested to see what you network latency is and where it is in the network. My guess is your cable company is oversubscribing their service and latency is becoming a problem. Latency will also reduce you speed test performance quite a bit. JamesO

05-15-2005, 01:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	Windows IP Configuration Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : jackandcheryl Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . : Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Hybrid IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No DNS Suffix Search List. . . . . . : mad.wi.charter.com Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection: Connection-specific DNS Suffix . : mad.wi.charter.com Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network Connection Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0E-A6-70-28-6D Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.100 Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0 Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1 DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.1.1 DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 24.196.64.53 68.115.71.53 24.159.193.40 Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Saturday, May 14, 2005 5:46:21 PM Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Sunday, May 15, 2005 5:46:21 PM Tracing route to www.yahoo.akadns.net [68.142.226.51] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 2 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1 2 10 ms 9 ms 12 ms 10.40.128.1 3 * * * Request timed out. 4 * * * Request timed out. 5 * * * Request timed out. 6 * * * Request timed out. 7 * * * Request timed out. 8 * * * Request timed out. 9 * * * Request timed out. 10 * * * Request timed out. 11 * * * Request timed out. 12 * * * Request timed out. 13 * * * Request timed out. 14 * * * Request timed out. 15 * * * Request timed out. 16 * * * Request timed out. 17 * * * Request timed out. 18 * * * Request timed out. 19 * * * Request timed out. 20 * * * Request timed out. 21 * * * Request timed out. 22 * * * Request timed out. 23 * * * Request timed out. 24 * * * Request timed out. 25 * * * Request timed out. 26 * * * Request timed out. 27 * * * Request timed out. 28 * * * Request timed out. 29 * * * Request timed out. 30 * * * Request timed out. Trace complete. Tracing route to server1.cheapcodservers.com [67.19.39.171] over a maximum of 30 hops: 1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1 2 12 ms 6 ms 10 ms 10.40.128.1 3 * * * Request timed out. 4 * * * Request timed out. 5 * * * Request timed out. 6 * * * Request timed out. 7 * * * Request timed out. 8 * * * Request timed out. 9 * * * Request timed out. 10 * * * Request timed out. 11 * * * Request timed out. 12 * * * Request timed out. 13 * * * Request timed out. 14 * * * Request timed out. 15 * * * Request timed out. 16 * * * Request timed out. 17 * * * Request timed out. 18 * * * Request timed out. 19 * * * Request timed out. 20 * * * Request timed out. 21 * * * Request timed out. 22 * * * Request timed out. 23 * * * Request timed out. 24 * * * Request timed out. 25 * * * Request timed out. 26 * * * Request timed out. 27 * * * Request timed out. 28 * * * Request timed out. 29 * * * Request timed out. 30 * * * Request timed out. Trace complete.

05-15-2005, 02:18 PM	#11 (permalink)
JamesO Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA USA Posts: 2,289 OS: 98SE, W2k Pro, XP Pro	Unfortunately, not a good enough answer for me, if I had their service I would be pushing hard to get the Trace Route enabled and I would want to know why it is not! I have worked for large ISP's and this is something we would not disable, additionally, as the ISP we needed this function in order to troubleshoot network problems both internally and for the customer base. Just my view of things! JamesO

05-16-2005, 04:13 PM	#13 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 41,787 OS: Windows 7, XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	I use Tracert regularly, I'd be MIGHTY unhappy if Comcast disabled it. __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience

05-16-2005, 08:12 PM	#14 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	So i called Charter and got the run around when inquiring about trace route and my internet still being of poor quality. Unfortunately they are the only service in town that has anything higher than dial up. Am i S.O.L. on this?? and how hard would it be to have them enable trace route? Would they have to do it system wide or only per ip??

05-16-2005, 08:17 PM	#15 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	i dont know how they can tell me everything is running fine when using their speedtest tool and i get this: TCP/Web100 Network Diagnostic Tool v5.2.1e DO NOT USE YOUR CONNECTION WHILE TEST IS RUNNING click START to begin Preparing Speedtest . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Done running 10s outbound test (upload) . . . . . 186.56Kb/s running 10s inbound test (download) . . . . . . 189.17kb/s Your speed is 3.43 times faster than 56Kb dialup Your PC is connected to a Cable/DSL modem click START to re-test 3 meg service running at 189 kb/s

05-16-2005, 08:48 PM	#16 (permalink)
JamesO Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Fairfax, VA USA Posts: 2,289 OS: 98SE, W2k Pro, XP Pro	Run an extended ping to 10.40.128.1 (ping 10.40.128.1 -t) and to yahoo (ping www.yahoo.com -t) at the same time and see what is up. Open 2 seperate DOS prompt windows, Start, Run, cmd If you see drops and timestamps upwards of 100 ms, then this IS a problem. Network Latency, which colors speedtest results, well it actually reduces the speed of your link as packets are held in buffers! Sounds like you need to speak with the Manager or "Customer Care" regarding these issues. Should only be a few keystrokes to "Properly" configure the routers to allow Trace Routes to pass, assuming they know what they are doing? And when will they properly set up their network without "Black Hole" addresses! This may be part of what is blocking the Trace Routes. JamesO

05-16-2005, 08:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
tim255 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91 OS: XP	would a black hole detect set to yes on TCP Optimizer do anything for me?

05-17-2005, 03:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
johnwill Manager, Networking Forums Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania, US Posts: 41,787 OS: Windows 7, XP-Pro, Vista, Linux Blog Entries: 1	Nope, and I don't suggest you turn it on. It can adversely affect performance, especially on a network connection with lots of dropped packets. When enabled, causes TCP to try to detect "Black Hole" routers while doing Path MTU Discovery. A "Black Hole" router does not return ICMP Destination Unreachable messages when it needs to fragment an IP datagram with the Don't Fragment bit set. TCP depends on receiving these messages to perform Path MTU Discovery. With this feature enabled, TCP will try to send segments without the Don't Fragment bit set if several retransmissions of a segment go unacknowledged. If the segment is acknowledged as a result, the MSS will be decreased and the Don't Fragment bit will be set in future packets on the connection. Enabling black hole detection increases the maximum number of retransmissions performed for a given segment. __________________ If TSF has helped you, Tell us about it! or Donate to help keep the site up! Microsoft MVP - Windows Desktop Experience