Legality and hypocrisy

[Wolfball]

Basically, who can tell me whether it is considered legal to record tv shows on your computer - via your tuner card and recording software. I mean, I am not talking about burning and selling here. Just your regular personal use storing your favorite episodes of whatever on your hd. How about this?

From then on, a person who would download recorded material, say via a bittorent client, and use the tv material for their personal use, how is it considered in the eyes of the law? Because technically, they could always argue that they recorded those themself from tv and merely stored them on their computer. Well, I am just interested to understand how this kind of cases is handled.

On a similar topic, what is it specifically that justifies the existence of P2P / bittorrent and whatnot? I suppose that game demos, shareware, updates and bla blah are the usual reply. But take my case for example: 4 years ago, I lost an entire CD case with all my favorite music - clean and paid for. Why would I feel the least bit guilty for downloading the lost tracks and burn them? After all; I paid for them. However, I am not so smart or nuts (depending on how you look at it) to keep all my receipts from when I bought my first CDs in 87, which so happen to figure among my favorite, which I lost.

Or say I currently live abroad, but I didn't take all my pc games with me (which is my case, btw). What would happen if I was to dload one of them - which I purchased and of which I have a legit copy at home - then?

Ok, you know where I'm getting at. So, in which case does all this remain legal? Is it actually possible to remain a good guy in all cases???
Thanks,
W

[johnwill]

Originally Posted by Wolfball

Basically, who can tell me whether it is considered legal to record tv shows on your computer - via your tuner card and recording software. I mean, I am not talking about burning and selling here. Just your regular personal use storing your favorite episodes of whatever on your hd. How about this?

Quite legal, at least in the US. That's called Fair Use, and was sort of decided in the Beta Max case.

From then on, a person who would download recorded material, say via a bittorent client, and use the tv material for their personal use, how is it considered in the eyes of the law? Because technically, they could always argue that they recorded those themself from tv and merely stored them on their computer. Well, I am just interested to understand how this kind of cases is handled.

Well, when you get into P2P applications and use, it doesn't matter if they're legal or not here, we don't support them in any way. I can steal software, music, whatever and argue that I really owned it, does that make it true?

On a similar topic, what is it specifically that justifies the existence of P2P / bittorrent and whatnot? I suppose that game demos, shareware, updates and bla blah are the usual reply. But take my case for example: 4 years ago, I lost an entire CD case with all my favorite music - clean and paid for. Why would I feel the least bit guilty for downloading the lost tracks and burn them? After all; I paid for them. However, I am not so smart or nuts (depending on how you look at it) to keep all my receipts from when I bought my first CDs in 87, which so happen to figure among my favorite, which I lost.

I lost my wallet, and I foolishly had $5000 in it! If I can prove that I had the $5000 and lost it, is it OK to rob a bank to recovery my money? Tell me how stealing music, whatever the justification, differs from my example?

Or say I currently live abroad, but I didn't take all my pc games with me (which is my case, btw). What would happen if I was to dload one of them - which I purchased and of which I have a legit copy at home - then?

Ok, you know where I'm getting at. So, in which case does all this remain legal? Is it actually possible to remain a good guy in all cases???
Thanks,
W

See above.

[Wolfball]

Originally Posted by johnwill

Well, when you get into P2P applications and use, it doesn't matter if they're legal or not here, we don't support them in any way.
I can steal software, music, whatever and argue that I really owned it, does that make it true? :

Sure, I see your point, but I am not arguing about this.
Perhaps I should have specified that I am not doing here the apology of downloading-robbing music through P2P, however you want to call it. I am merely trying to understand how this thing works. Because, as I explained, I did extract all my CDs onto my hd, and well, the idea of that is not having to carry your CDs all around the world, isn't it?

I only want to make sure that this is fine, even though I have absolutely no way right now of proving I actually own the darn music, since it is safely stored at home.

Originally Posted by johnwill

I lost my wallet, and I foolishly had $5000 in it! If I can prove that I had the $5000 and lost it, is it OK to rob a bank to recovery my money? Tell me how stealing music, whatever the justification, differs from my example?
See above.

As to the cd case I lost, then again I am not asking whether it is morally justifiable or credible to merely replace the stuff. As it is in fact what happened to me, whether you believe it or not, I want to know if it would be defendable legally, was I to download the lost files. I reckon it is not, and that answers my question.

On another matter, we could always debate - in another thread - whether p2p programmes are morally fine, and who holds the blame for the fall in discs sales. We could do that, but my question, once more, is not of a moral, but of a legal nature. That is: is there ANY legitimate use for P2P programmes?

God! Is this wrong to TALK about it? Just because I said the word p2p, am I a criminal? I am asking a question of a legal - technical value, not saying "dude, downloading mp3s is cool!" I am not that age anymore, and I have no interest convincing anyone.
I understand you MUST condemn the use of these kinds of softwares, but I am not asking for your opinion. Don't get me wrong, I strongly value your opinion, as obviously you've given it some more serious thought than I did, but basically I only want an explanation, not an argument!

Personnally, before spitting on something for ethical reasons, I like to understand why. That is all I am asking, man! Thanks.

[johnwill]

Originally Posted by Wolfball

Sure, I see your point, but I am not arguing about this.
Perhaps I should have specified that I am not doing here the apology of downloading-robbing music through P2P, however you want to call it. I am merely trying to understand how this thing works. Because, as I explained, I did extract all my CDs onto my hd, and well, the idea of that is not having to carry your CDs all around the world, isn't it?

I only want to make sure that this is fine, even though I have absolutely no way right now of proving I actually own the darn music, since it is safely stored at home.



As to the cd case I lost, then again I am not asking whether it is morally justifiable or credible to merely replace the stuff. As it is in fact what happened to me, whether you believe it or not, I want to know if it would be defendable legally, was I to download the lost files. I reckon it is not, and that answers my question.

It's obviously not a legal defense to say you lost your copies. Are you morally entitled to download them? I'll leave that issue to a higher power to answer.

BTW, I hope I didn't imply that I didn't believe you lost your CD's, since my dauther had a similar experience and lost about 100 CD's out of her car when it broke down. It happens, life is funny that way.

On another matter, we could always debate - in another thread - whether p2p programmes are morally fine, and who holds the blame for the fall in discs sales. We could do that, but my question, once more, is not of a moral, but of a legal nature. That is: is there ANY legitimate use for P2P programmes?

God! Is this wrong to TALK about it? Just because I said the word p2p, am I a criminal? I am asking a question of a legal - technical value, not saying "dude, downloading mp3s is cool!" I am not that age anymore, and I have no interest convincing anyone.
I understand you MUST condemn the use of these kinds of softwares, but I am not asking for your opinion. Don't get me wrong, I strongly value your opinion, as obviously you've given it some more serious thought than I did, but basically I only want an explanation, not an argument!

Personnally, before spitting on something for ethical reasons, I like to understand why. That is all I am asking, man! Thanks.

I don't have a problem discussing P2P as a technology, but we don't help in the use, configuration, or issues involving P2P programs. BTW, this really isn't an argument, we've established a board policy regarding P2P, that's all. I agree that there certainly are legal uses for P2P applications, it's unfortunate that there are so many abusers that we had to adopt such a policy.

[Wolfball]

Fair enough!
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate!

[johnwill]

You're welcome.