64-Bit Memory Questions

evilmog9999 · 10-12-2008, 06:09 PM

I think this is the right place for this question because it is about Vista 64-bit.

I have been doing some reading on this topic, but cannot determine a clear anwer to these questions.

1. Does the extra memory usage outweigh the upgraded memory capacity? Meaning, I've heard that 64-bit, while allowing more memory, also uses more memory. So, would:

64-bit Vista
4GB Memory
1GB VRAM

Really be better than:

32-bit Vista
4GB Memory
1GB VRAM

Or would the 5GB (RAM+VRAM) available for 64-bit actually be no better than the 4GB (RAM+VRAM) that the 32-bit could actually access because the 64-bit would hog up so much of the 5GB it wouldn't be any benefit?

2. Also, is it true that if a program is not written for 64-bit, it will still behave as a 32-bit application on the 64-bit and run worse?

Mcninjaguy · 10-12-2008, 07:17 PM

64 bit is the way to go.
yes you might notice about 50 - 100 mb jump in usage but for a 4 gb system like mine it really won't matter what so ever

32 bit only can use 3.1 - 3.5 gb and will be outdated eventually

64 bit can theoretically use up to 128 gbs of ram

all games will work for 64 bit except for a few. I know starcraft works for my vista 64 bit home premium system

games work a unnoticeable bit faster under 64 bit currently, wait until directx11 comes out in 2009 then it should have full support for quad cores on games and under windows

evilmog9999 · 10-12-2008, 07:25 PM

Thanks for your reply. I hadn't heard anyone say what the memory jump was. 50-100Mb out of 5000Mb is still 4900-4950Mb as opposed to 4000Mb. If your 50-100Mb useage jump is what happens for most people, then clearly even adding 1Gb of total ram is a big improvement. Thank you for that info.

For the other issue, if an application is not written for 64-bit... it should work. BUT, I have heard that it works by the 64-bit system addressing for the game as though it is 32-bit because the program itself cannot access 64-bits. So, wouldn't this 32-bit emulation slow down performance? But you are saying that 32-bit only applications you have run under 64-bit still run faster?

**jenae** · 10-12-2008, 08:28 PM

Hi, 64 Bit will be able to jump the 4gb RAM hurdle that limits RAM useage available in 32 Bit (as mentioned 3.1 to 3.5 ). 32 Bit apps do not run slower on 64 Bit. They run as 32Bit what you may notice is 64 Bit apps run faster. Now one point NOT all games will run on 64 bit any earlier games written on the 16 bit subsystem will simple not install. This article by an associate may help:-

Recently I have done a lot of research and I would like to share my findings. I currently own a Pentium 4 2.8 ghz (Prescott, em64t) system sitting on an Intel d101ggc motherboard. The video card is an nvidia 7300gt and a sound blaster live 24-bit sound card. I installed windows vista ultimate x64 on the system. The system runs like a dream. Basically an x64 processor is a new type of processor with 64-bit extensions. Amd calls their version amd64 and Intel calls theirs em64t. For simplicity we refer to amd64 and em64t processors as x64 processors. The x64 processors have different modes of operation. They are 16-bit real mode, 32-bit protected mode and 64-bit long mode. The 64-bit long mode is the native mode, the others are legacy mode. So, if you are using a 32-bit operating system on an x64 processor, you are not fully utilizing it. 64-bit long mode has several advantages: it allows the processor to break the 4gb memory barrier and also 64-bit long mode enables twice the number of general purpose registers than in 32-bit mode… which explains why it is faster than a 32-bit processor/mode. As far as vista x64 is concerned, it is really rock solid. All 32-bit applications run on it at full processor speed (thanks to the x64 processor architecture). In running 32-bit processes on a vista x64 there is no emulation involved. Only a few address translations are required which is handled by the wow (windows on windows) layer. The only thing that you should worry about is getting 64-bit drivers for your hardware. 32-bit drives do not work on a 64-bit os. Hence, all 32-bit application that rely on a 32-bit driver , will not work. Also there are no 16-bit subsystems in vista x64. so your old dos and win16 applications will not work.

Some comments AMD does not use WOW to run32 bit Intel does I suggest you go AMD.

**jcgriff2** · 10-12-2008, 09:52 PM

The one major issue that I have found in x64 is with x86 apps geared toward reporting and also x86 utility programs (those used in lieu of Windows Explorer) as they have issues finding files in the x64 \windows\system32 folder - a place where x86 apps don't belong.

On an x64 Vista system, if you run an x86 reporting app like HiJackThis, you will see in the body of the report that many files (drivers) show up as "missing". They are not. When an x86 app like HJT looks to the x64 \windows\system32 folder, it is re-directed to the x86 \windows\syswow64 folder; hence it cannot "see" the x64 \system32 folder and its contents. To obtain access to the contents of the x64 \system32 folder, an x86 app must look at the virtual folder \windows\sysnative, which contains the contents of \system32. Since \sysnative is virtual, there is no risk that the x86 app may do damage to files w/in the x64 \system32 folder.

If you go into Computer, \windows\syswow64 and double-click on the x86 cmd.exe and issue the command "dir \windows\system32\winevt\logs" - it will respond "File not found". This is b/c you are now running x86 cmd.exe and when it seeks the \windows\system32\winevt\logs folder, it is really looking in \windows\syswow64... and the sub-folder \winevt\logs is not there.

However, if you issue the command "dir \windows\sysnative\winevt\logs" at the x86 cmd.exe line, the result will show you a screen full of your Event Viewer Logs, which are in the x64 \windows\system32\winevt\logs folder. If you issue the same using the x64 cmd.exe, the \windows\sysnative directory will not be found.

x86 apps also have the same issue with the virtual registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\software\Wow6432Node - which will take the x86 app for the ride of its life - re-directing it to the already re-directed key \wow6432node and it will continue to do so in perpetuity:

Code:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node
\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node
\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node
\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node
\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node
\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node

and so on... until an error pops up telling you the the directory (folder) name is too long.

Enjoy Vista x64!

Regards. . .

jcgriff2

.

Mcninjaguy · 10-12-2008, 10:24 PM

so jcgriff2 do you think "windows 7" will have a native 64 bit or will it be like vista and be a mix of 64 and 32 bit?

**jenae** · 10-12-2008, 10:45 PM

Hi Macninjaguy, probably a reflection on the slow takeup of developers working on 64 bit apps and the still vast majority of users being on XP or Vista 32 bit. Windows 7 (no formal release date yet) :-

Windows 7 will ship in both client and server versions with the client versions available in both 32-bit and 64-bit editions.[4] The server version of Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 [5], is 64-bit only.[6]

10-12-2008, 06:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
evilmog9999 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 20 OS: Win XP SP2	64-Bit Memory Questions I think this is the right place for this question because it is about Vista 64-bit. I have been doing some reading on this topic, but cannot determine a clear anwer to these questions. 1. Does the extra memory usage outweigh the upgraded memory capacity? Meaning, I've heard that 64-bit, while allowing more memory, also uses more memory. So, would: 64-bit Vista 4GB Memory 1GB VRAM Really be better than: 32-bit Vista 4GB Memory 1GB VRAM Or would the 5GB (RAM+VRAM) available for 64-bit actually be no better than the 4GB (RAM+VRAM) that the 32-bit could actually access because the 64-bit would hog up so much of the 5GB it wouldn't be any benefit? 2. Also, is it true that if a program is not written for 64-bit, it will still behave as a 32-bit application on the 64-bit and run worse?

10-12-2008, 07:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mcninjaguy Temporarily Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 10,422 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit My System Blog Entries: 1	Re: 64-Bit Memory Questions 64 bit is the way to go. yes you might notice about 50 - 100 mb jump in usage but for a 4 gb system like mine it really won't matter what so ever 32 bit only can use 3.1 - 3.5 gb and will be outdated eventually 64 bit can theoretically use up to 128 gbs of ram all games will work for 64 bit except for a few. I know starcraft works for my vista 64 bit home premium system games work a unnoticeable bit faster under 64 bit currently, wait until directx11 comes out in 2009 then it should have full support for quad cores on games and under windows

10-12-2008, 07:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
evilmog9999 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 20 OS: Win XP SP2	Re: 64-Bit Memory Questions Thanks for your reply. I hadn't heard anyone say what the memory jump was. 50-100Mb out of 5000Mb is still 4900-4950Mb as opposed to 4000Mb. If your 50-100Mb useage jump is what happens for most people, then clearly even adding 1Gb of total ram is a big improvement. Thank you for that info. For the other issue, if an application is not written for 64-bit... it should work. BUT, I have heard that it works by the 64-bit system addressing for the game as though it is 32-bit because the program itself cannot access 64-bits. So, wouldn't this 32-bit emulation slow down performance? But you are saying that 32-bit only applications you have run under 64-bit still run faster?

10-12-2008, 08:28 PM	#4 (permalink)
jenae Mentor Hardware Team Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,307 OS: XP & Vista	Re: 64-Bit Memory Questions Hi, 64 Bit will be able to jump the 4gb RAM hurdle that limits RAM useage available in 32 Bit (as mentioned 3.1 to 3.5 ). 32 Bit apps do not run slower on 64 Bit. They run as 32Bit what you may notice is 64 Bit apps run faster. Now one point NOT all games will run on 64 bit any earlier games written on the 16 bit subsystem will simple not install. This article by an associate may help:- Recently I have done a lot of research and I would like to share my findings. I currently own a Pentium 4 2.8 ghz (Prescott, em64t) system sitting on an Intel d101ggc motherboard. The video card is an nvidia 7300gt and a sound blaster live 24-bit sound card. I installed windows vista ultimate x64 on the system. The system runs like a dream. Basically an x64 processor is a new type of processor with 64-bit extensions. Amd calls their version amd64 and Intel calls theirs em64t. For simplicity we refer to amd64 and em64t processors as x64 processors. The x64 processors have different modes of operation. They are 16-bit real mode, 32-bit protected mode and 64-bit long mode. The 64-bit long mode is the native mode, the others are legacy mode. So, if you are using a 32-bit operating system on an x64 processor, you are not fully utilizing it. 64-bit long mode has several advantages: it allows the processor to break the 4gb memory barrier and also 64-bit long mode enables twice the number of general purpose registers than in 32-bit mode… which explains why it is faster than a 32-bit processor/mode. As far as vista x64 is concerned, it is really rock solid. All 32-bit applications run on it at full processor speed (thanks to the x64 processor architecture). In running 32-bit processes on a vista x64 there is no emulation involved. Only a few address translations are required which is handled by the wow (windows on windows) layer. The only thing that you should worry about is getting 64-bit drivers for your hardware. 32-bit drives do not work on a 64-bit os. Hence, all 32-bit application that rely on a 32-bit driver , will not work. Also there are no 16-bit subsystems in vista x64. so your old dos and win16 applications will not work. Some comments AMD does not use WOW to run32 bit Intel does I suggest you go AMD. __________________ Last edited by jenae; 10-12-2008 at 08:29 PM.

10-12-2008, 09:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
jcgriff2 Moderator, Microsoft Supp Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palm Springs, California / Southern New Jersey Posts: 10,062 OS: Windows 7, Vista Ultimate My System	Re: 64-Bit Memory Questions The one major issue that I have found in x64 is with x86 apps geared toward reporting and also x86 utility programs (those used in lieu of Windows Explorer) as they have issues finding files in the x64 \windows\system32 folder - a place where x86 apps don't belong. On an x64 Vista system, if you run an x86 reporting app like HiJackThis, you will see in the body of the report that many files (drivers) show up as "missing". They are not. When an x86 app like HJT looks to the x64 \windows\system32 folder, it is re-directed to the x86 \windows\syswow64 folder; hence it cannot "see" the x64 \system32 folder and its contents. To obtain access to the contents of the x64 \system32 folder, an x86 app must look at the virtual folder \windows\sysnative, which contains the contents of \system32. Since \sysnative is virtual, there is no risk that the x86 app may do damage to files w/in the x64 \system32 folder. If you go into Computer, \windows\syswow64 and double-click on the x86 cmd.exe and issue the command "dir \windows\system32\winevt\logs" - it will respond "File not found". This is b/c you are now running x86 cmd.exe and when it seeks the \windows\system32\winevt\logs folder, it is really looking in \windows\syswow64... and the sub-folder \winevt\logs is not there. However, if you issue the command "dir \windows\sysnative\winevt\logs" at the x86 cmd.exe line, the result will show you a screen full of your Event Viewer Logs, which are in the x64 \windows\system32\winevt\logs folder. If you issue the same using the x64 cmd.exe, the \windows\sysnative directory will not be found. x86 apps also have the same issue with the virtual registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\software\Wow6432Node - which will take the x86 app for the ride of its life - re-directing it to the already re-directed key \wow6432node and it will continue to do so in perpetuity: Code: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node \Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node \Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node \Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node \Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node \Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node\Wow6432Node and so on... until an error pops up telling you the the directory (folder) name is too long. Enjoy Vista x64! Regards. . . jcgriff2 . __________________ . . . . . . . . BSOD Posting Instructions B Expecting a reply and waiting > 36 hours ? Send a PM to me containing a link to your thread My availability will be limited through ~ December 1, 2009

10-12-2008, 10:24 PM	#6 (permalink)
Mcninjaguy Temporarily Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 10,422 OS: Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit My System Blog Entries: 1	Re: 64-Bit Memory Questions so jcgriff2 do you think "windows 7" will have a native 64 bit or will it be like vista and be a mix of 64 and 32 bit?

10-12-2008, 10:45 PM	#7 (permalink)
jenae Mentor Hardware Team Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,307 OS: XP & Vista	Re: 64-Bit Memory Questions Hi Macninjaguy, probably a reflection on the slow takeup of developers working on 64 bit apps and the still vast majority of users being on XP or Vista 32 bit. Windows 7 (no formal release date yet) :- Windows 7 will ship in both client and server versions with the client versions available in both 32-bit and 64-bit editions.[4] The server version of Windows 7, Windows Server 2008 R2 [5], is 64-bit only.[6] __________________