pianoman1949

You folks are gonna love this. I am trying to understand the cause of a problem I am having; I appreciate your time and patience:

Executive summary:

After I installed Windows XP on my hard disk's primary partition (freshly formatted), I am unable to install Windows 2000 (booting from the Windows CD) anywhere. Windows setup cannot see my hard disks via a disk controller card. Most perplexing, I can't find any way to undo this problem. And yes, I know about and use F6 to install the drivers for the disk controller card. It just doesn't have the desired effect anymore.


More detail:

My computer has an unusual setup (created by the store I bought it from), but has been working fine for years. It has two hard drives that both run off a Promise Technology PCI disk controller card, and the two motherboard IDE ports are connected to two CD burners.

My primary hard drive had 4 partitions, with Windows 2000 on the first three partitions and Windows XP on the fourth, using Microsoft multibooting. All instances of both operating systems have been working fine. I have successfully cleared off (re-formatted) partitions many times and installed Windows (both 2000 and XP), and never had a problem.

But recently I did something I apparently have never done before: cleared off the first (primary) partition (which used to have 2000) and installed Windows XP on it; trying to keep up with the times, I guess.

Big mistake. After doing that, I became unable to boot up any of the remaining 2000 os's (the XPs were fine). I got a message complaining about "can't find hal.dll". What I have read about this problem sounds like 2000 and XP have different needs for some system files in that primary partition, and they are incompatible.

So I need to go back to the way things were, because I need to be able to use both operating systems. But when I tried to do that (re-format the primary partition and install 2000), I found that now I am unable to do any Windows 2000 installs at all. "Windows setup cannot detect any hard drives on your system".

Further experimenting has only left me more confused: I zeroed out the hard drive; I put in a different hard drive. It seems that when XP was installed in the primary partition, it modified or detroyed *something* *somewhere* on that hard drive that makes 2000 setup unable to see the hard drive via the controller card. But where? I have run out of places to look! If I put in another drive, the problem goes away. If I subsequently install XP onto the primary partition of that different hard drive, it acquires this mysterious problem too.

So to re-state my experience:

Windows 2000 setup does not see the hard drives plugged into my Promise Ultra 100 TX2 PCI disk controller card (even though F6 during setup appears to load the controller card drivers properly) IF the primary partition on the primary hard drive has, or has had sometime in the past, XP installed on it.

If the drive has never had XP in the primary partition, Windows 2000 setup works fine. If it has had XP in the primary partition, I get the error, even if that primary partition has been re-formatted .... even if the entire disk has been zeroed!

I am not looking for a way to side-step the problem; I have already done that by temporarily plugging the hard drive into the motherboard IDE socket long enough to do the Windows 2000 install. But that doesn't explain specifically what's causing the problem, and therefore how to fix it. It doesn't say why what's been working fine for years suddenly quit working.

Honest, I am not doing anything differently. The only difference is that Windows XP seems to have pooped on the hard drive somehow. I probably need a source code guru, someone who knows the details of XP and its install process, to tell me: What did XP do that I can't seem to undo, even by zeroing the whole disk out?

Thank you kindly,
Ted

johnwill

Well, I'm sure that XP doesn't leave anything behind that would cause it to fail to install.

In general, Windows multi-booting wants the oldest O/S versions to be installed first, followed by the later ones. However, when you installed XP over the boot drive, you probably killed off the BOOT.INI file, as well as a few others.

Have you tried booting from the 2K CD and running a FIXBOOT from the recovery console?

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Grinch

A few weeks ago I was setting up two machines. I pulled a Belkin ATA 133 controller card from one and placed it in the other. I then had a problem somewhat like yours. After a few days of messing around I went out and got an Adaptec card. Everything works fine now.
Maybe you should look at the controller card as the source of the problem. Do you have the OE drive disc for the card?

music21

To quote you "If the drive has never had XP in the primary partition, Windows 2000 setup works fine. If it has had XP in the primary partition, I get the error, even if that primary partition has been re-formatted .... even if the entire disk has been zeroed!"
You're right there. if you try to reinstall a lower version of XP(win2000 and NT) on a partion which already had XP you wont be able to install that lower version(win2000 or NT). Promise FastTrak Serial ATA RAID Controller 'mirrors' one drive onto the other but you can disable this card's property in BIOS.

When your Operating System no longer boots after creating a Security (RAID 1) Array using your existing boot drive;
This condition is due to hard drive geometry issues. To verify this condition, move the original hard drive back to the motherboard controller and see whether it boots successfully.
Each controller views a hard drive differently. This can be an issue for a new controller that loads the original Master Boot Record (MBR) and then has a problem translating it or the Operating System boot record.
To correct this situation, Promise Technology recommends a clean installation of the Operating System. This action restores the MBR and OS boot record. This action will require you to repartition and format the hard drive.

about Hal.dll (i have previously posted this under Missing Hal.dll)

HAL is Microsoft's abbreviation for the Hardware Abstraction Layer, the technology and drivers that let the Windows NT, 2000, and XP operating systems communicate with your PC's hardware. HAL is one of several features--along with the NT file system (NTFS) that replaced the much less secure MS-DOS--that make NT-based operating systems more secure and reliable than Windows 95, 98, and Me.
Option 1:
Boot from your CD and follow the directions to start Recovery Console. Then:

Attrib -H -R -S C:\Boot.ini
DEL C:\Boot.ini
BootCfg /Rebuild
Fixboot

Option 2:

Boot from your CD and follow the directions below to start Recovery Console.

Insert the Setup compact disc (CD) and restart the computer. If prompted, select any options required to boot from the CD.
When the text-based part of Setup begins, follow the prompts; choose the repair or recover option by pressing R.

If you have a dual-boot or multiple-boot system, choose the installation that you need to access from the Recovery Console.
When prompted, type the Administrator password. (if you didn't create one try pressing enter).

At the system prompt, type Recovery Console commands; type help for a list of commands, or help commandname for help on a specific command.

Most likely you will need to expand the file from the CD. The command would be expand d:\i386\hal.dl_ c:\windows\system32\hal.dll. Substitute d: for the drive letter of your CD. Once you have expanded the file type "exit" to exit the Recovery Console and restart the computer.

It seems likely to be a boot and/or configuration problem your having as most of the related information deals with it - - Good Luck Sir!

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pianoman1949

Hi John, thanks for take the time and trouble to dive into this quagmire.

You wouldn't think so, but my experience leads me to no other conclusion. lol, I didn't claim it made sense .. quite the contrary, in fact.

Ok, I understand that is the reason that installing XP made the 2K inoperable. But that's not what has me scratching my head.

I could understand things getting tangled up if I was installing an os over top of another one, i.e., doing an upgrade (or in this case, a "downgrade"). But, as noted above, I am doing a fresh install of a new os. There is no currently installed operating system on the partition in question. The partition is freshly formatted, and at one point I even went so far as to zero out the entire drive. So there is no boot.ini file .. or any other file. I am booting from the 2K CD and trying to do an install.

No, I haven't delved into the recovery console at all. My thinking was that its purpose is to fix data on the disk, and there is no data on the disk. After the drive was zeroed out, I did run FDISK /mbr to re-create the master boot record. I don't know how that compares with a recovery console fixboot. My intention was to re-set the disk the way it came from the manufacturer, thinking that would make the problem go away .. and to my shock, it did not.

Thanks again,
Ted

And a big thank you for your response.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with the controller card. And yes, I am using the original drive floppy from the manufacturer. I also tried downloading and using the latest and greatest version of these drivers from the Promise website. Same result.

Both hard disks are hooked into the controller card during normal running of the machine and everything is fine. It's only the W2K install process that suddenly quit working.

Over a period of years I have successfully done many Windows 2000 installs booting from the W2K CD. F6 makes setup prompt me for the floppy, and the controller card drivers are installed. This process still appears to be working (no error messages), but now it's not "taking". The only thing new is that the primary hard drive has had XP on it. If I replace it with another hard drive that has never had XP on it, the problem vanishes.

Again, I didn't claim this made sense ......

Thanks,
Ted

This makes no sense to me. As I said earlier, I could understand things getting tangled up if I was installing an os over top of another one, i.e., doing an upgrade (or in this case, a "downgrade"), or in a multiboot scenario. But I am doing a fresh install of a new os. There is no currently installed operating system on the partition in question; it's freshly formatted, and at one point I even went so far as to zero out the entire drive. That should wipe out EVERYTHING (including all traces of XP), shouldn't it?

My intention was to re-set the disk the way it came new from the manufacturer by wiping out everything on it (which would presumably include all traces of XP). Since that did not happen, I can only conclude there is something hiding on the thing somewhere that I don't yet know about.

Besides, the problem is not that Windows 2000 setup balks at the install because it sees something it doesn't like on the hard disk. The problem is that Windows 2000 setup can't FIND the hard disk.

Why am I not considering some other factor, like controller card problems? Because if I replace the hard drive with a different one that has never had XP, the problem goes away. Then, if I repeat the sequence of os installs on that different drive, it acquires the problem also.

Not sure I get the connection here. The controller card is not new, and I'm not having any problem booting from a hard drive ... once WIndows gets installed.

I was thinking the same thing, and this is what I have done.

I read the same stuff on the net about this exact problem; it sounds like 2000 and XP have different needs for one or more system files in that primary partition, and they are incompatible. This doesn't work for me; I need access to both 2000 and XP.

I don't think so, it's limited specifically to Windows 2000 setup <shrug> ... but thanks so much for your time and trouble,
Ted




Thanks,
Ted

pianoman1949

I emailed Microsoft as a last resort. They guarantee 24-hour response, and I sent it Monday ... and of course, here it is Thursday. So I probably shouldn't hold my breath. But maybe there is a source code guru who knows.

pianoman1949

Just in case anybody's interested .... I called a Microsoft phone number that was emailed to me .... it took some time and patience, and getting transferred around a few times .... and a rep telling me that if I wanted to talk to a real Professional Support person, it was gonna cost me $245, not $35 (!!), and that there was no way I could get my original $35 back over the phone ...... I called the original number back, and eventually did get someone who promised to do a refund.

I just checked my bank online, and they did actually credit me the $35! I am quite surprised, to be honest.

So the mystery remains unsolved, but I have let it go (more or less), and my life goes on .....

pianoman1949

Well, I have been trying different things people have suggested, such as in this thread:

http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=36004


I am learning a lot, but the behavior remains unexplained.

Again, nothing else seems to have any trouble seeing the HDDs connected to that Promise card ...except for Windows 2000 setup. Not a normally-running Windows 2000 or XP, not Windows XP setup, not booting to a DOS floppy, not booting to a Partition Magic floppy, not booting to a Norton SystemWorks emergency floppy, nothing .... very bizarre .....

pianoman1949

***************************

B I N G O ! ! ! ! ! !

****************************

Problem solved !!

I *knew* this had a simple solution. I *knew* I just needed to learn more. We were halfway there, but we were missing one piece of the puzzle.

Details when I get time. Thanks so much for joining me in wrestling with this.

Ted

pianoman1949

Only Windows 2000 setup had any trouble seeing the HDDs connected to that Promise card. Everything was fine in every other scenario: normally-operating Windows, Windows XP setup, etc.).

And what I was doing *used* to work; I had not changed any hardware.

So I knew it wasn't a hardware problem; there is nothing wrong with the card, cable, drivers, or the hard drive. I knew it had to be software, specifically something about the installation of the drivers for that card.

There were two crucial pieces of information: the first came from a Microsoft guy I ran into on one of the forums. He pointed me to a Knowledge Base article:

http://support.microsoft.com/?id=314859

It talks about XP, but apparently the same is true with 2K:

If you use F6 to attempt to install a driver that matches (has the same Plug and Play Identifier as) one that Windows already has, the Setup program IGNORES the driver you are trying to install. And no message is displayed telling you it did that (grrr).

So Windows setup, for some reason, (mistakenly) thinks it already has an appropriate driver for that controller card.

I blamed XP because the problem arose when I installed XP.

The F6 trick was not needed during XP installation, apparently because the XP CD contains a driver for the card, whereas the Windows 2000 CD does not.

When I installed XP, that new driver must have been "remembered" somewhere, so that when I tried to do the F6 thing during re-install of 2K, the above "ignore" scenario happened.

But ..... where is it "remembered"? The answer to that question is the other crucial piece of information.

When I changed HDDs, the problem went away. This made me suspect that the place where the driver was "remembered" was on the HDD, as crazy as that sounds. This makes no sense, because I used drives that had been zeroed out. Besides, at that point in the install, the HDD hasn't even been accessed yet. But I had no better ideas. I just kept asking around, because I knew there were some facts I was missing.

Last week I ran across a very good technical info website by a guy named Chris Quirke. I tracked down his email address and asked him the above question, and he immediately came forth with the magic acronym:

E S C D !!!!

(Extended System Configuration Data).

Plug and Play configures the hardware in the machine (assigns IRQs, DMA channels, I/O ports, etc.), and saves that configuration in the ESCD, which is a file in non-volatile RAM in the system BIOS. On subsequent boots, as long as the hardware doesn't change, the system just reads that file and doesn't have to repeat the assignment process.

Apparently when XP was installed, the Promise card's ESCD info was updated to point to XP's new driver. Then when I wiped out XP (and presumably the driver with it), that left the ESCD pointing to la-la land.

So Chris just said to go into the BIOS setup and clear out the ESCD, which forced Plug and Play to repeat its assignment process. Problem went away, end of story.

I think I even figured out why it appeared that the problem was hard-drive-specific. The first time I switched the hard drive, the one I put in was slightly smaller than the one I took out. Perhaps the different disk geometry caused the ESCD to refresh, making the problem go away for the moment. But then I repeated the sequence of steps (introducing XP) on that drive, which reproduced the problem, and then every disk I put in since then has been just like one of those two previous ones.)

Thanks again for all your time and attention,
Ted

pianoman1949

It was a pretty frustrating 3 months. Maybe I'm just old-school, but compared to what I've been doing for 22 years, this is not rocket science. I am admittedly anal; I could not accept that something had been done that couldn't be easily undone; there had to be something fundamental that I didn't yet understand. There are two ways to solve a computer problem:

1. Guess and jerry-rig a workaround with the digital equivalent of scotch tape and baling wire, or
2. Figure out the real cause of the problem and fix it right.

My training is that option 2 is the responsible choice. My cardinal rule is "don't guess, because there are too many possible wrong answers".

A lot of people argued it wasn't worth the effort, but look how much I learned .... which should better equip me to solve the next problem. There is no substitute in this business for knowledge.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. Thanks for your patience.

johnwill

Glad you solved the problem, it was a bit odd. I never even thought of the ESCD, though I make it a habit to clear it if I change hardware on a machine. This just didn't sound like that kind of problem!

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pianoman1949

Well, it became obvious that this problem was caused by the fact that the existence of that driver was being remembered *somewhere*.

It didn't make sense that it was on the hard drive ... so it had to be somewhere else. I just never even knew about the ESCD, and even if I had, it probably wouldn't have occurred to me that it had anything to do with software (drivers).