System Hangs intermittently - I'm stumped

BlackBeauty · 10-09-2006, 07:16 PM

This is my first post so thankyou for reading :)

I have recently purchased a new system. It is an AMD Athlon X2 3600 64-Bit Dual Core Machine with upgraded RAM to 1GB, HDD to 300GB and the nVidia 7600GT video card. Further/full specs are here.

Everything is fine with the machine except it hangs intermittently. It occurs anywhere between 5 to 15 minutes when the PC is in use. When it is not being used, the PC runs smoothly with no problems - I can leave it on for days with no issues.

The hangs typically occur when a user is doing normal activities ie., surfing the web, using Windows Explorer, iTunes, notepad etc. The display just hangs and the keyboard and mouse do not respond. The only way out is to press the reset button. (Incidentally, I've spent a few hours playing games and it has never once hung during a game....yet!).

Because there is no memory/stack dumps, blue screens or other error messages, I suspected that it was the nVidia video card and that it may need it's drivers updated. When it arrived, it was running ForceWare 91.31. I have since upgraded it to use ForceWare 91.47 but still experience these problems.

I was advised by the site I bought it from to return it to the suppliers to have them look at it as it is still under warranty. I took it back there on Saturday and after a 70+km round trip of driving, was told that it was fixed - they cited a problem with the power supply pins and said they put an adapter on it and that they could no longer reproduce the problem. However, as soon as I got it home and plugged it in to test - it hung again within 5-6 minutes.

I rang them and they said they didn't know what else it could be - perhaps I should get a gruntier power supply. I already have a 480W one which friends have since said is more than sufficient for what I am running. The supplier also said that perhaps it's due to the poor quality of power in my area (known as an older area when it comes to infrastructure) - I don't know, this last one sounds like a brush off....

Anyway, I have been researching more on these possible causes and have arrived at the following conclusions:

1. Problems could be due to power spikes/surges/sags
2. Problems could be due to high CPU temperatures

If any of these are the case, I'd be interested to know whether these are the right steps to try out, in order to fix this quickly:

* Benchmark the temperature in the BIOS then, on reboot after the next hang, check the BIOS temperature again. Alternatively, I will run something like MBM5 or HMonitor to monitor my CPU temperature.
* Move the PC from where it is (under a desk, on the carpet) to on top of the desk and/or run the PC without one side on to see if this fixes it.
* Take the PC to a friend's place on a different power grid and run it there.
* Invest in a spike protector or inexpensive UPS for around AUD$100. (Do spike protectors protect against sags as well?)

What do you reckon? Anything I'm missing or should be doing differently? Needless to say, this is a very annoying problem and I look foward to receiving your input.

Thanks in advance!

**Doby** · 10-09-2006, 08:14 PM

If you suspect poor quality power in your home I would use a ups, they can correct it, and I would start there because poor power can make bad things happen.

I would like to see the psu specs, including the name brand, amps of the +3.3V,+5V and +12V, these should be listed on the side of the psu.

Quote:

they cited a problem with the power supply pins and said they put an adapter on it and that they could no longer reproduce the problem

Maybe they put a 20pin to 24 pin power adapter on it, this would suggest to me that the psu is inadequate for the system but without knowing the details or having the psu specs I am speculating.

I would run a full spread of tests on it to really stress and check out the hardware,,,

1) Memtest86 on each stick of ram individually for at least 8 hours each.
2) Hardrive manufactuers utilitys to checkout the hdd's.
3) Prime95 for atleast 24 hours if it will run without error, prime will test for heat,psu,mobo,cpu and ram, it won't test video cards or hdd's. Prime also won't tell you witch of the remaining components are bad but if it fails you know you have a hardware problem.

I am not thinking video card or heat because of your ability to play games for hours without problem.

This sure will be interesting please keep us posted

BlackBeauty · 10-09-2006, 09:06 PM

A big thanks for your detailed reply Doby...I will report back soon with the full PSU specs. I'm also inclined to agree with you about heat and video card not being the problem...

I'm grabbed memtest86, prime95 and the Samsung HD utility called HUTIL or SHUTIL (not sure which one to use) however a few more questions before I start:

1. Some of these utils require running from a floppy - I don't have a floppy drive. Is it sufficient running it from the hard drive or perhaps from a USB memory stick?

2. For the memtest86 tests, how do I run the tests on each stick of RAM? Take out 1 stick and run the test, then replace and take out the other stick and re-run the test?

3. Is the computer able to be used during these 8-24 hour test periods? What if the PC hangs during the test (it sometimes hangs from just moving the mouse)

Thanks once again.

chauffeur2 · 10-09-2006, 11:09 PM

Hi BlackBeauty, and Welcome to TSF!

In answer to your queries.....

1. Some of these utils require running from a floppy - I don't have a floppy drive. Is it sufficient running it from the hard drive or perhaps from a USB memory stick?
Yes you can, but you will have to alter the BIOS to boot from a USB device, or better still put it on to a CD and boot it from there.

2. For the memtest86 tests, how do I run the tests on each stick of RAM? Take out 1 stick and run the test, then replace and take out the other stick and re-run the test?
One stick at a time; then, with both sticks. This means that you will be running the test 3 times in all.

3. Is the computer able to be used during these 8-24 hour test periods? What if the PC hangs during the test (it sometimes hangs from just moving the mouse)
No. This is because the Memtest operates in DOS(prior to Windows® booting), and you don't have the mouse in operation, just the keyboard. The chances of the computer 'hanging' during the test would indicate that there are other problems, usually with the RAM.

Hopefully this answers your questions.

Tumbleweed36 · 10-10-2006, 03:45 AM

Hi,

The hardware team members have you on the right direction. Be sure to list more power supply information when you post back. Brand name, wattage, and amps per rail (listed on the side). I have a few concerns initially about a 400 watt supply being large enough to pull this unit.

**Doby** · 10-10-2006, 03:59 PM

Your welcome, My yeam members have answerd your questions as well as I could, its really great having a large tech staff here in hardware because when one of us ain't on another can fill right in.

As Tumbleweed weed said we really need the psu specs so we can all put are heads together on this one, I to am very concerned about the ability of the psu.

BlackBeauty · 10-12-2006, 04:33 AM

Hope it's okay to upload a word doc - but it's the specs from screens of SpeedFan which I ran...

I'm also currently running prime95 and will be doing so for the next 24 hours at least...

I have yet to find my damn screwdriver but will report back with full PSU specs shortly - sorry!

As for testing the RAM, I'm lost. I can't work out how to use memtest86. I also have no A: or B: drive...there is an install.bat, memtest.bin, rawrite.exe and obviously the README.txt which has left me a bit miffed

Thanks guys :)

chauffeur2 · 10-12-2006, 04:42 AM

Hi BlackBeauty,

That Word doc is unreadable...try taking a screenshot of the SpeedFan™ results and post it as a .jpg image here.

BlackBeauty · 10-12-2006, 05:31 AM

sorry 'bout that...trying again.

Tumbleweed36 · 10-12-2006, 06:08 AM

Hi,

That temp 2 is very hot for your rig, way out of normal range. Try running the Sensorview program under my signature and see what it says about temps, voltages, and fan speeds. That would permit us to compare the two and get a better reading.

BlackBeauty · 10-12-2006, 04:38 PM

Thanks Tumbleweed....see attached - thanks :)

Also, Prime95 is still running.

(BTW, the man is whisking me away for a myster long weekend away for my b'day so I'll be back possibly Monday....)

Tumbleweed36 · 10-12-2006, 04:44 PM

Hi,

First of all, happy birthday. Second, you must have a very nice man to do that for you....or, you are a very special person.

Please clarify, was this temp you just posted for at-rest or under heavy stress? If it was at-rest, you have a severe heat problem. Post back and let us know and one of us can use that data to help pinpoint the problem in that area.

BlackBeauty · 10-12-2006, 05:10 PM

Thanks TW :)

The temp I posted was at-rest. Well, a couple things are running - Prime95 is running for the next 24 hours, and I have Outlook, one instance of FireFox and two Windows Explorer windows. Certainly no games, music apps nor video editing applications.

Tumbleweed36 · 10-12-2006, 05:18 PM

Hi,

Just to be safe, let's wait until you get the memory tested and run the program (Sensorview) again while the computer is resting. Then, we can take a more accurate look at it. Have a great weekend and a happy birthday...will look for your data when that is done.

**Doby** · 10-13-2006, 10:35 AM

If you were running prime when you took the readings with sensorview then the system was not at rest and the 52C when prime is running is in the normal range because prime puts a heavy load on it.

I tend to think you were running prime when you took the readings because of the cpu and memory usage.

Prime will almost always fail when the cpu temp hits 60C.

Look closer on the memtest site they have a version that can be run from a bootable cd but you have to use a program such as nero to create a bootable cd and copy the iso image to it.

A better way would be to get UBCD for free it contains memtest and a lot of other goodies, look under the FAQ's for directions

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

BlackBeauty · 10-16-2006, 08:50 PM

Thanks Doby, I've burnt myself a UBCD and will give it a go tonight. First, I will run Sensorview again on my machine while it is completely idle and post the results.

Also, I may also stop Prime from running altogether - I read their site again and it says it takes up to a month to complete???

10-09-2006, 07:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
BlackBeauty Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 20 OS: XP Pro	System Hangs intermittently - I'm stumped This is my first post so thankyou for reading :) I have recently purchased a new system. It is an AMD Athlon X2 3600 64-Bit Dual Core Machine with upgraded RAM to 1GB, HDD to 300GB and the nVidia 7600GT video card. Further/full specs are here. Everything is fine with the machine except it hangs intermittently. It occurs anywhere between 5 to 15 minutes when the PC is in use. When it is not being used, the PC runs smoothly with no problems - I can leave it on for days with no issues. The hangs typically occur when a user is doing normal activities ie., surfing the web, using Windows Explorer, iTunes, notepad etc. The display just hangs and the keyboard and mouse do not respond. The only way out is to press the reset button. (Incidentally, I've spent a few hours playing games and it has never once hung during a game....yet!). Because there is no memory/stack dumps, blue screens or other error messages, I suspected that it was the nVidia video card and that it may need it's drivers updated. When it arrived, it was running ForceWare 91.31. I have since upgraded it to use ForceWare 91.47 but still experience these problems. I was advised by the site I bought it from to return it to the suppliers to have them look at it as it is still under warranty. I took it back there on Saturday and after a 70+km round trip of driving, was told that it was fixed - they cited a problem with the power supply pins and said they put an adapter on it and that they could no longer reproduce the problem. However, as soon as I got it home and plugged it in to test - it hung again within 5-6 minutes. I rang them and they said they didn't know what else it could be - perhaps I should get a gruntier power supply. I already have a 480W one which friends have since said is more than sufficient for what I am running. The supplier also said that perhaps it's due to the poor quality of power in my area (known as an older area when it comes to infrastructure) - I don't know, this last one sounds like a brush off.... Anyway, I have been researching more on these possible causes and have arrived at the following conclusions: 1. Problems could be due to power spikes/surges/sags 2. Problems could be due to high CPU temperatures If any of these are the case, I'd be interested to know whether these are the right steps to try out, in order to fix this quickly: * Benchmark the temperature in the BIOS then, on reboot after the next hang, check the BIOS temperature again. Alternatively, I will run something like MBM5 or HMonitor to monitor my CPU temperature. * Move the PC from where it is (under a desk, on the carpet) to on top of the desk and/or run the PC without one side on to see if this fixes it. * Take the PC to a friend's place on a different power grid and run it there. * Invest in a spike protector or inexpensive UPS for around AUD$100. (Do spike protectors protect against sags as well?) What do you reckon? Anything I'm missing or should be doing differently? Needless to say, this is a very annoying problem and I look foward to receiving your input. Thanks in advance! Last edited by BlackBeauty : 10-09-2006 at 07:27 PM.

10-09-2006, 11:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
chauffeur2 Manager, TSF Articles Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 9,495 OS: Xp Sp3 with all updates + Vista™ Ultimate SP1. My System	Hi BlackBeauty, and Welcome to TSF! In answer to your queries..... 1. Some of these utils require running from a floppy - I don't have a floppy drive. Is it sufficient running it from the hard drive or perhaps from a USB memory stick? *Yes you can, but you will have to alter the BIOS to boot from a USB device, or better still put it on to a CD and boot it from there.* 2. For the memtest86 tests, how do I run the tests on each stick of RAM? Take out 1 stick and run the test, then replace and take out the other stick and re-run the test? *One stick at a time; then, with both sticks. This means that you will be running the test 3 times in all.* 3. Is the computer able to be used during these 8-24 hour test periods? What if the PC hangs during the test (it sometimes hangs from just moving the mouse) No. This is because the Memtest operates in DOS(prior to Windows® booting), and you don't have the mouse in operation, just the keyboard. The chances of the computer 'hanging' during the test would indicate that there are other problems, usually with the RAM. *Hopefully this answers your questions.* __________________ Dave T. Submit New Articles If it works, Don't fix it! Especially if Bill Gates had anything to do with it!!

10-10-2006, 03:45 AM	#5 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,816 OS: XP Professional	Hi, The hardware team members have you on the right direction. Be sure to list more power supply information when you post back. Brand name, wattage, and amps per rail (listed on the side). I have a few concerns initially about a 400 watt supply being large enough to pull this unit. __________________ ----------

10-10-2006, 03:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
Doby Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central PA (USA) Posts: 6,996 OS: XP sp2/ Vista	Your welcome, My yeam members have answerd your questions as well as I could, its really great having a large tech staff here in hardware because when one of us ain't on another can fill right in. As Tumbleweed weed said we really need the psu specs so we can all put are heads together on this one, I to am very concerned about the ability of the psu. __________________ Would you like to help TSF fight cancer and other diseases??? JOIN TEAM TSF

10-12-2006, 04:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
chauffeur2 Manager, TSF Articles Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 9,495 OS: Xp Sp3 with all updates + Vista™ Ultimate SP1. My System	Hi BlackBeauty, That Word doc is unreadable...try taking a screenshot of the SpeedFan™ results and post it as a .jpg image here. __________________ Dave T. Submit New Articles If it works, Don't fix it! Especially if Bill Gates had anything to do with it!!

10-09-2006, 09:06 PM	#3 (permalink)
BlackBeauty Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 20 OS: XP Pro	A big thanks for your detailed reply Doby...I will report back soon with the full PSU specs. I'm also inclined to agree with you about heat and video card not being the problem... I'm grabbed memtest86, prime95 and the Samsung HD utility called HUTIL or SHUTIL (not sure which one to use) however a few more questions before I start: 1. Some of these utils require running from a floppy - I don't have a floppy drive. Is it sufficient running it from the hard drive or perhaps from a USB memory stick? 2. For the memtest86 tests, how do I run the tests on each stick of RAM? Take out 1 stick and run the test, then replace and take out the other stick and re-run the test? 3. Is the computer able to be used during these 8-24 hour test periods? What if the PC hangs during the test (it sometimes hangs from just moving the mouse) Thanks once again.

10-12-2006, 06:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,816 OS: XP Professional	Hi, That temp 2 is very hot for your rig, way out of normal range. Try running the Sensorview program under my signature and see what it says about temps, voltages, and fan speeds. That would permit us to compare the two and get a better reading. __________________ ----------

10-12-2006, 04:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,816 OS: XP Professional	Hi, First of all, happy birthday. Second, you must have a very nice man to do that for you....or, you are a very special person. Please clarify, was this temp you just posted for at-rest or under heavy stress? If it was at-rest, you have a severe heat problem. Post back and let us know and one of us can use that data to help pinpoint the problem in that area. __________________ ----------

10-12-2006, 05:10 PM	#13 (permalink)
BlackBeauty Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 20 OS: XP Pro	Thanks TW :) The temp I posted was at-rest. Well, a couple things are running - Prime95 is running for the next 24 hours, and I have Outlook, one instance of FireFox and two Windows Explorer windows. Certainly no games, music apps nor video editing applications.

10-12-2006, 05:18 PM	#14 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 12,816 OS: XP Professional	Hi, Just to be safe, let's wait until you get the memory tested and run the program (Sensorview) again while the computer is resting. Then, we can take a more accurate look at it. Have a great weekend and a happy birthday...will look for your data when that is done. __________________ ----------

10-13-2006, 10:35 AM	#15 (permalink)
Doby Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central PA (USA) Posts: 6,996 OS: XP sp2/ Vista	If you were running prime when you took the readings with sensorview then the system was not at rest and the 52C when prime is running is in the normal range because prime puts a heavy load on it. I tend to think you were running prime when you took the readings because of the cpu and memory usage. Prime will almost always fail when the cpu temp hits 60C. Look closer on the memtest site they have a version that can be run from a bootable cd but you have to use a program such as nero to create a bootable cd and copy the iso image to it. A better way would be to get UBCD for free it contains memtest and a lot of other goodies, look under the FAQ's for directions http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ __________________ Would you like to help TSF fight cancer and other diseases??? JOIN TEAM TSF

10-16-2006, 08:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
BlackBeauty Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Melbourne Posts: 20 OS: XP Pro	Thanks Doby, I've burnt myself a UBCD and will give it a go tonight. First, I will run Sensorview again on my machine while it is completely idle and post the results. Also, I may also stop Prime from running altogether - I read their site again and it says it takes up to a month to complete???