lobsterboy

Not sure why there are two "expired" threads on this already, but I can't seem to post on them, so I'm starting a new one. One of these threads is marked [resolved], and I've got the same problem, so please let me know if you really do know of a solution.

I running a new system, only 2 weeks old:

Intel P4 3.2GHz 540 (socket 775)
ASUS P5GDC-V Deluxe
512MB DDR 400

My idle temp is averaging 45-50c, but I had a decent load on my system for over 3hrs today (but the cpu was only 55% used), and noticed it was running pretty hot. When I checked, the temp was running 74-76c -- which is above Intel's posted maximum for this processor (67.7c). (Temps were checked with ASUS Probe)

I've found a post somewhere that mentions Heat Sink Fans that are not properly attached on some ASUS socket 775 boards, but never having pulled a motherboard out of a machine, I don't want to start messing around with my brand new one. Any other suggestions out there?

Also, if anyone knows how much I've likely damaged my cpu by running it for 3hrs straight at 75c+, or know how I might be able to tell, it would be appreciated.

Thanks!

kranky

I have the same mobo, running a 2.8 overclocked to 3.17 using the stock HSF, and my idle temp is about 40c and it goes up to about 58c under heavy load. The LGA775's run hot but yours is very hot.

Saying that some HSF's aren't properly attached on some Asus boards doesn't really make sense since Asus doesn't put the CPU/HSF in the mobo - whoever assembles the machine does that. It could be that whoever assembled your machine didn't properly seat the HSF or properly apply thermal paste to it.

Your CPU isn't likely to be damaged because they throttle themselves if they get too hot (they slow themselves down to reduce heat).

You should have a case fan on the bottom front of the case blowing in and one at the top rear blowing out - what's your case fan arrangement? Do you have your cables bundled so they aren't obstructing the airflow?

mark3567

Hi,

In addition to the advice given to you by kranky, I would suggest that you look at your heatsink fan and make sure it is blowing down instead of pulling air up. What kranky told you about the placement and blowing direction of the two case fans front and back is very important advice. I would start with these three things and go from there is you still have problems.

Please let us know how it goes and either kranky or I can give you further instructions on how to get that temp down.

lobsterboy

Thanks for the replies...I'll have a look inside the box tonight after work.

The stuff on the improper seating of Intel 775 cpu's stock HSF was found here:

http://forum.pcmech.com/showthread.php?t=121401

By the sounds of things, Intel's been shipping them with installation instructions that miss some important points -- the difficulty in seating the HSF might have something to do with the "Stack Cool" plate on the back of the mobo (which would be rather ironic).

If this is likely the problem, I'll be taking the machine back to the shop to have it checked out -- I don't want to mess with pulling out my mobo if I don't have to.

So it's not likely that the CPU is damaged? I shouldn't hassle the guy that built the system for a new CPU?

lobsterboy

OK, I've had a bit of a look, and there are no case fans at all at the moment. Which leads me to wonder why the guy that put together the system didn't try to upsell me on a fan or two...

So some fans are definitely in order. Or should I just bite the bullet and get one of Intel's "Thermally Advantaged Chassis"? I'd love to hear from anyone running the 540 processor in a standard case (likely with fans).

I've also checked the temps in the BIOS, as I read somewhere that ASUS Probe has been known to give inaccurate readings -- and found some strange results. Idling on the BIOS screen, my cpu temp was hovering between 65-67c! When I booted into WinXP, the temp started out at 60c and gradually cooled to the 46-48c I've been idling at in Windows.

So I booted into Windows with the side off my case, and was running a cool 36c idle. And then I booted into the BIOS again, and watched the temp start at 52c and climb up to 60.5c.

While in the BIOS, I noticed that the setting for the "cpu target temperature" was at 66c -- which seems odd, since the max is supposed to be 67c. I tried to determine what setting this should be at, but Intel's documentation makes no sense to me really, so I dropped it to 57c. I'm now running at 45c as I type this, and haven't gone back into the BIOS to check what happens in there.

So now I've got some new questions:

-anyone think setting the "cpu target temperature" in the BIOS at 57c is a bad idea? The only thing that I can think that it would effect would be the cpu fan speed, and it's pretty quiet right now. Should I set it as low as possible (which happens to be 51c)?

-any ideas why the BIOS would heat up the cpu so much?

-any reason I should not bother with fans & just go straight to the "cone-over-the-cpu" Intel-recommended case?

-as for fans: my power supply doesn't have an intake fan, and isn't using the connector on the mobo. Should I get 3 fans: 2 for the back (exhaust) and one for the front (intake)? Anyone else have other config ideas?

mark3567

Hi,

If you have a setting in bios that can be changed, then leave it at the BIOS default settings, or otherwise, I would leave it alone. With the software that came with the motherboard, (asus probe), set it to default settings.

YOU DO need fans...and, I would start out with one in front and one in back.

It is difficult to believe someone sold you a case like this with no fans for ANY type of modern processor. This processor runs very hot and anyone who builds should know that. Someone does not know what they are doing in my opinion if they thought this unit would work without fans.

Let us know how it comes out when you get fans put in there.

TwistedBard

lobsterboy.... does the person who built this machine for you have some sort of vendetta against you? LOL. A fanless powersupply, with no fans in the case at all and a P4 to heat things up? I mean, great googly moogly! It's a wonder you haven't melted down yet.

Shut your machine down now and go get you some case fans for sure! Maybe ask the guy who built it for you to also exchange your fanless PSU with one that has a fan as well.

Honestly, with the little bit that we know about this machine, I would question everything that this person / organization did for you and do some research on what else they may have done/advised poorly on. I'd be very concerned if I were you.

lobsterboy

Thanks for the concern from all!

I did a fair bit of shopping around before I went to this shop, and the reason I chose to buy from him was that he seemed to know what he was doing, took the time to talk about options with me, etc. His price was a little more than I could have paid through some huge corporation, but I'd rather pay a little more for personal service and to support local businesses.

Or, at least that's what I used to think...

I should clarify...the PSU does have an exhaust fan out the back, but no intake fan (some PSU's have intake fans inside the case if I'm not mistaken?) The reason I mentioned it is that there is an extra 3-pin connection on the mobo for the PSU fan, so I've got connections for 3 fans total to the mobo.

Yes, I am definitely concerned about what else might be done poorly in this machine. Anyone have suggestions about what else I should look out for? Would it be worthwhile posting more complete stats about the system components?

And mark3567: thanks for the concern about the BIOS setting. I'll check the default tonight...given the above about the setup, it could be that the cpu target temp was set to 66c by the builder who saw that the max temp posted by Intel is 67c. However, even if the default is 66c, does anyone know of any serious risks to setting this lower? I came across this in a review about a different ASUS board:

"The CPU Target Temperature controls the CPU threshold temperature. If the CPU temperature exceeds the CPU Target Temperature setting, the CPU fan is run at full speed until the CPU temperature fall below the specified setting."

Does running the CPU fan faster have any negative effects? Besides being noisier?

TwistedBard

Well, I think it might be worthwhile and interesting to hear what sorts of comments you may get about your machine if you were to post what all of your components are, I really think you should seek some more local, hands-on advice as well. Maybe you've got one of those nerd friends who is annoying, but spends all day fiddling with his computer and actually knows what all those memory addresses mean, whose help you could enlist?

You've already identified that you have a cooling issue in your case, which definitely needs to be addressed. My next concern would be that if you've got a P4 with a single fan PSU, your power supply may not be enough to provide stable power to you computer, which could cause you any number of issues down the road.

I dunno, lobster. I hate to sound like the harbinger of doom... but is it too late to take this thing back to its maker and ask for your hard earned back, so you can perhaps try an alternate vendor? What sort of support and return policy did you get with this purchase?

lobsterboy

Hmmm...thanks for the advice, Twisted, and thanks for the sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach as well...

Quick question about the PSU: when you say "not enough to provide stable power", what do you mean? Is this in reference to enough wattage? Or not enough...um, quality fans?

Is there a minimum wattage that should be used?

kranky

That's not a simple question to answer. PSU's are getting quite complicated. But the short version is that there are (generally) two types - single-rail and dual-rail. And since different PSUs vary in efficiency, a 450w from one company might not be enough but a different brand 400w might work.

With today's systems, a lot of people are finding weird problems that turn out to be caused by insufficient PSUs.

The +12V rail is the most important thing unless you are using some oddball components. But assuming you are using the integrated graphics and no PCI/PCI Express cards, a name-brand 450w unit should be enough. But the PSU that works today might not be enough if you decide to add some high-end, power-sucking video card.

On my system with a P5GDC-V, I have two HDDs, a floppy, a DVD burner, an add-on front panel USB/memory card reader/writer, and two case fans. My PSU is an Enermax 465w and it works fine.

Post the list of components you have in your system.

mark3567

Hi lobsterboy,

My information will cover two areas. First of all, I would like to address the concern expressed about your complete unit and second, the questions you asked me to answer in your post.

I see no need talking about your total unit unless you have other problems that need addressed. Your issue was a heat issue, so I would limit this thread to that area instead of opening a can of worms. My philosophy, "If it not broken, don't fix it." You did not mention other problems. Feel free to post other problems if you have them come up later.

If you do have one exhaust fan on the back of the case (we all mis-understood that and thought you did not have any), then just add another one to the front and see what that does for your temps. If that does not help, then look at a better heatsink fan. You need to know that Athlon does say some times that a front fan is not necessary in your computer, so maybe that is what he (the builder) followed so difficult to fault him. I would give the builder of your computer the benefit of the doubt and work with us and work with him to get rid of the heat issue. And, I support and believe you were correct to seak out a local vender to build the computer if you were not comfortable in building it yourself. Don't jump off the ship, give him (the builder) a chance to help you with this if you don't get it solved on here.

I do not agree with the one fan philosophy, so would suggest personally that you add one quiet fan in the front. I honestly use the factory retail fans and heatsinks (I know many on here don't agree with that), but even building the newer Pentium 4 machines (here at Marlin Computers), just do not have a heat issue if it is put together properly with proper air flow, proper seating of the heatsink/CPU, and sensible placement of fans. The P4 Prescott's are hotter than what you have. Let's don't make this out to be something it is not.

Now for the second issue and the questions you asked from me. I don't think that one or two degrees centigrade makes any difference in the setting.
You may even leave it where the builder set it or you can change it a few degrees, it will not hurt anything to do that. If you don't mind the noise, there is not any harm in running the fan faster. What I have found through the years while building that most of the time, this constant fast fan scenario is not needed. However, that is not what you asked....it will not hurt it to run fast.

Other than that, don't have much else to say. Just do what you think is best.

TwistedBard

Mark, I think you're just too nice! LOL

If this was a machine that lobster had owned for any length of time, I'd say right along with you, yeah, let's sort out the problems one at a time and get him straightened out. My fear for lobster's sake is that if the builder did a poor job with cooling (how much does it cost or save to include or not include one or two case fans in a computer?) what other corners might he have cut or missed entirely? I certainly don't know without seeing and touching the machine and it sounds like lobster really doesn't either. If I were lobster, I would much rather err in my favor than in the builder's favor.

To your point, however, which is a good one... lobster, have you perhaps contacted your builder about your cooling issue? If the machine is running hot, maybe they just made a mistake and forgot to screw a fan in for ya. It certainly might be worth your piece of mind to give the person/organization a call and talk it over. Not knowing anything whatsoever about your transaction or anyone or anything involved with it, I would tend to take the pessimistic view. You being closer to it and knowing the individual(s) that you worked with can (and probably should) give them a chance to work this problem out for you, and offer up the opportunity for them to create a satisfied customer by rectifying the issue with class and style. I hope that's what happens anyway!

Either way, if you do end up keeping this machine, get a good fan or two in there and let us know how it turns out! And there are lots of great people like Mark here to help out with good, sensible advice and knowledge.

lobsterboy

Thanks, mark, for saving this thread (and my sanity) from spinning out of control. Sticking to the original subject here...

To clarify on the fans that my machine currently has (since I don't seem to be getting it across): there are currently 2 -- the HSF on the CPU, and the one that is bulit in to the PSU. Apart form putting the HSF on, and putting in the PSU, the builder did not put any fans in, or even mention fans.

But I will still give him the benefit of the doubt, and will be stopping in to see him (and likely pick up some fans) on the way home from work.

mark3567

Hi,

I still think that is a good idea. If he says you don't need a very minimum of a fan blowing hot air out the back, then you do need to find another vender because that would indicate to me that he does not know what he is doing. To the best of my knowledge, there is not a manufacturer or builder out there that does not place at a very minimum one case fan in the case. Like the twistedbard said, he may have just forgotten Even then, I would still recommend that you put in two (front, in - back, out) and you will see those temps drop like a hot rock through a thin layer of ice. (well, maybe) Good luck.

lobsterboy

A quick update: 3 fans installed now (2 exhaust at back, one intake at front). Idle temps are now in the 39-42c range on the cpu, while the mobo temp is generally 22-24c. These sound good to me.

However, under load, the cpu temp rises to 67-68c -- which still seems too high (esp. if the "max" temp for the cpu is 67c). The mobo temp still hovers at 23-24c.

Does this sound ok, or should I still be worried? What happens when it's summer & the temp in the room goes up?

(As for the rest of the "issues" with the builder: I'll start a new thread tonight for that can of worms.)

mark3567

Hi,

Those temps are fine, but the under load is still a little high. I don't like to see if over 62c. However, not enought to worry about right now. What you might want to consider is putting a better cooler on the heatsink and get rid of the factory package. That should take it down another five or six degrees on the high end. And, if you do that, use Artic Silver thermal paste between your cpu and heatsink, that should lower you another three or four degrees. Don't worry about it for now, but think about that in the future.

TwistedBard

Another thing to look at, lobster, would be whether the new fan arrangement manages to blow air across the processor's heat sink to move the heat away from it. The airflow might be blocked by wires internally (especially if you have IDE drives with those big, flat cables). With a bit of ingenuity you could fashion a little diverter inside the case to point your intake fan's air more directly at your processor. Might help you get your load temps into a nicer range.

lobsterboy

I've got a SATA HDD, but I've still got IDE cables on the DVD drives & the floppy -- they're nicely tucked out of the way, though. There's a mass of power cables that aren't placed very well, but they aren't really in the path between the front fan & the processor.

Would it be worth the time & effort to cut a hole in the side panel & fashion my own "cone" over the cpu? Or would it even work if I banged some holes in the side panel, and maybe screwed a fan on there?

Another hypothetical idea: with the "Stack Cool" plate on the back of the mobo theoretically conducting heat away from the cpu, would it be a good idea to at least have some air-holes on the panel behind the mobo near the Stack Cool plate?

mark3567

Hi,

Still think I would go for the better heatsink fan and artic silver. Just my opinion.

Addendum: I had a motherboard one time in an ATX case (large motherboard like 7 pci slots. Anyhow, I only used two of them, so took a drill and placed ventilation holes in those little metal things that cover the PCI slots that are not used. Did provide some more ventilation and you could feel the heat coming out of those holes. What one has to be very careful of is getting cross drafts or the lack of a smooth flow of air front to back.