External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost

**newbee_4** · 02-11-2009, 06:37 PM

hi,
So after a crash I decided to keep all my about 150G of data on external hard drives - had noticed that my rather old computer works much faster with less on the C drive.

The external drives in question all work fine if plugged in alone. All are Firewire - my motherboard is old and does not support USB2 so that is not an option. Some are 1 partition, some are 2 partitions, everything is NTFS, size range is 500Gb- 1TB. Most are LaCie but this has also happened with Iomega. It happens irregularly. I always plug one in 1st, then wait till it is recognized, then plug in 2nd. It seems like maybe it helps if My Computer is open when I add the 2nd drive.

Sometimes when I connect a 2nd external hard drive, both that one and the one already plugged in disappear from My Computer and I cannot access them. I know there are other ways to try to look for them but I am afraid of data failure so would rather not. I don't know anything about master/slave etc. C drive has not been an issue.

Any ideas what I might be doing wrong?

I have
Dell Dimension 8200, memory is RDRAM , circa 2002 - upgraded video card and power supply
Win XP Pro SP 3
Kaspersky, WinPatrol

fwiw these are data only, I do not run programs from them. Some of the LaCie drives have a small partition with some Lacie stuff on them and show up with 2 drive letters in My Computer.

Thank you.

**newbee_4** · 02-15-2009, 04:49 AM

bump.

**linderman** · 02-18-2009, 07:48 PM

what is make and model of power supply

a computer from 2002 is not expecting the load on the USB power which you are trying to throw at it ...............

one drive at a time and i think you will fare alot better !!!!!!

**newbee_4** · 02-19-2009, 05:04 AM

will check and get back to you on specifics later. But I think that probably is not the issue - a couple of years ago I upgraded the power supply to support a new video card.

All the drives are connected w Firewire. The mobo does not support USB2 so that is not an option. Also all the drives have an option for a direct AC power supply, and that is what I use.

Will check when I am at the right computer - thank you!

**linderman** · 02-19-2009, 06:22 AM

could be a short coming of the firewire driver too ................ in your shoes I would opt to buy and install a new PCI slot firewire controller card ........... these will have their own updated bios and will be more suited to running your drives !

firewire in its ealy days was a VERY buggy adventure ........ by the time firewire matured and achieved dependability the majority of the computing world had already tasted the vinegar of earlier firewire instability ..........

a recent release controller card should address all your needs

**newbee_4** · 02-21-2009, 07:13 AM

hi,
lots of attachments w gif files of my stuff.

Since I bought this in 2002, I updated

- adaptec FireWire/USB2 card in a PCI slot - I run my drives off this card via a multiport hub - that's when I discovered that my Intel 850E chipset does not support USB2 and FireWire is my only fast data option.

- the power supply to a more powerful unit

- the video card to a more powerful card

- the hard drive C, because my original one died

Since my last post two things came up, maybe sort of related to this issue ?
- Some of my folders are not so very large in size (6gb) as some others, but with a much more complicated folder structure - lots of folders, multilevel nested folders etc etc. I listed the contents of a complex folder in Detail mode, and a folder I knew should be in there didn't come up. The entire thing was visible when I scrolled up and down (that is, I didn't forget to scroll and look ...) -- this one folder, itself a very complex folder, was not on the list when I sorted in one direction by alphabet, visible when I sorted in the reverse direction by alphabet.

I was wondering, maybe this 500G or 1Tera drives are just too big for my system? Pagefile problem or something w file structure?

-2nd thing - I stupidly unplugged a drive while it was on, and even though I hadn't requested accessing anything apparently it was happening. I got a bunch of messages that "data is damaged" from half a dozen folders on that hard drive. Is that likely to be true, ie I should pull out a backup? Did I damage the drive itself, should I reformat it and put the data back on (I have all the data so that is not too hard)?

Attached you'll find specs of a bunch of parts of my system - please note the one that gives a ship date of 2002 is the system as originally purchased so a lot on there is not current-- the power supply specs from PC Power and Cooling are the current power supply--
Thank you!!!

**newbee_4** · 02-21-2009, 07:16 AM

more attachments w specs

**newbee_4** · 02-21-2009, 08:12 AM

one more thing--
Sometimes but not always, when I go to the little menu where you can Safely Remove Hardware, I get a message

Generic Volume cannot be stopped now because a program is still accessing it.

--even though nothing should be accessing it.

I usually then will turn off my computer and unplug the external hard drive

**linderman** · 02-21-2009, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbee_4

one more thing--
Sometimes but not always, when I go to the little menu where you can Safely Remove Hardware, I get a message

Generic Volume cannot be stopped now because a program is still accessing it.

--even though nothing should be accessing it.

I usually then will turn off my computer and unplug the external hard drive

this is a common error with external connected drives and your method of complete shutdown is the only way out .............

as for the drive with the botched files ............... I would say wipe the drive will killdisk (free) then reformat the drive and restore your data ....

**newbee_4** · 02-21-2009, 02:32 PM

Do you have a link for killdisk?

Also about the power supply, chipset, etc - do you think my system just can't handle this size of external drive?

**linderman** · 02-21-2009, 03:02 PM

external drives connected to "another" controller like the card or even the motherboards onboard USB controller just adds another "layer" to the fray

I would advise you only use one external drive at a time .......... otherwise you are asking for trouble

killdisk
http://www.killdisk.com/downloadfree.htm

**raptor_pa** · 02-21-2009, 04:44 PM

Complex folder structures also may not display instantly. Even my laptop structure is not that complex, but sometimes it takes a bit till it populates completely, that is on a Pentium M 2.4 with 2 GB ram, so long as it finds it. And as Linderman said, externals add a couple layers of translation to the sequence.. Data comes off the drive in ATA format... enclosure must translate to a format USB can handle, then on the PC end, the USB has to get put back onto the ATA bus.- Or in your case sub firewire for USB - same concept.

**newbee_4** · 02-22-2009, 06:38 PM

hi, many thanks to you both.

Killdisk is running - is it really supposed to take 10 hours on a 500G drive? As far as I could tell I set Killdisk to the simplest parameters. Has another 2 hours to go, so unfortunately I cannot report back as yet. I seemed to have trouble getting Killdisk to start and I did a quick format of the drive first, then Killdisk seemed to accept it ok, or maybe I just was not patient enough the first time.

I will keep this advice re just 1 external at a time in mind. So far with only 1 drive connected besides C I have never had a problem.

I do think though I might have some kind of pagefile or Master File Table problem on C - maybe or maybe not contributing to these other issues? The reason I decided to try to have most of my data off C onto externals was that, though my 149G C had maybe 30G free, the Master File Table was listed as 99% in use and things were very very slow - much improved by having data moved and MFT down to around 65% in use (very surprising to me that it was still that much with only 30G or so in use on a 149G drive). The utility I was using was the one where you go into Defragment - Analyze and then view the report.

**raptor_pa** · 02-22-2009, 07:02 PM

The MFT will slow things down. but small files are often written directly into MFT space. The partition table or MFT on the C drive should not affect any other drives, each of htem have their own P-Table and MFT. 10 Hours to wipe a 500 GB drive is about right keep in mind every sector on the drive is completely written with zeros.

**newbee_4** · 02-22-2009, 08:34 PM

ok, Killdisk finished - now I do see that drive in Device Manager but it is not visible in My Computer nor to the Disk Management where I was hoping to format it --

went to the stickied thread. I think it looks bad. TestDisk didn't find any partitions? See attached file - confused now. I'll be sad if the drive is unusable.

**raptor_pa** · 02-22-2009, 09:13 PM

After killdisk there is no partition table to find, this is a 'factory fresh' disk, unlike externals which usually come preformatted. It should show the device in disk management, as disk 1 if this is the only other drive connected other than your OS drive, then right click on the disk and select initialize- create a partition and format it.

**newbee_4** · 02-24-2009, 05:06 AM

I did a full format and look to be good to go.

One last question - do you think 1T, even if there is just one external drive attached, is too big in some way for my elderly system? How about a 500G external firewire drive? If need be I can get a couple of smaller drives, it will be well worth it to avoid big problems down the line.

Thank you very much!

**linderman** · 02-24-2009, 07:00 AM

with one drive attached I think you will be fine ............. always keep your data backed-up ............. thats the golden rule for safe computing ........... mechanical drive failure can rear its ugly head at any time ! read the turtorial in my signature
IMHO you would have to have a real kick butt system to get away with large data transfers between two external drives ............. just plain ole too much translation in that process ........

**newbee_4** · 03-08-2009, 08:02 AM

sorry for the delay in reply, I've been laid up - medical stuff.

Anyway - thanks for everything! I think I'm back to stability, please feel free to mark this solved.

02-11-2009, 06:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost hi, So after a crash I decided to keep all my about 150G of data on external hard drives - had noticed that my rather old computer works much faster with less on the C drive. The external drives in question all work fine if plugged in alone. All are Firewire - my motherboard is old and does not support USB2 so that is not an option. Some are 1 partition, some are 2 partitions, everything is NTFS, size range is 500Gb- 1TB. Most are LaCie but this has also happened with Iomega. It happens irregularly. I always plug one in 1st, then wait till it is recognized, then plug in 2nd. It seems like maybe it helps if My Computer is open when I add the 2nd drive. Sometimes when I connect a 2nd external hard drive, both that one and the one already plugged in disappear from My Computer and I cannot access them. I know there are other ways to try to look for them but I am afraid of data failure so would rather not. I don't know anything about master/slave etc. C drive has not been an issue. Any ideas what I might be doing wrong? I have Dell Dimension 8200, memory is RDRAM , circa 2002 - upgraded video card and power supply Win XP Pro SP 3 Kaspersky, WinPatrol fwiw these are data only, I do not run programs from them. Some of the LaCie drives have a small partition with some Lacie stuff on them and show up with 2 drive letters in My Computer. Thank you. Last edited by newbee_4; 02-11-2009 at 07:01 PM.

02-15-2009, 04:49 AM	#2 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost bump.

02-18-2009, 07:48 PM	#3 (permalink)
linderman Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20,432 OS: win 2000 pro / Win XP pro My System	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost what is make and model of power supply a computer from 2002 is not expecting the load on the USB power which you are trying to throw at it ............... one drive at a time and i think you will fare alot better !!!!!! __________________ I still know nothing and I respect that fact, striving to improve and, along the way, help anyone that comes from the place that I used to be! Power Supply Selection LEARN TO BACK-UP YOUR DATA FREE & EASY YouTube - Runtime Software DriveImage XML tutorial

02-19-2009, 05:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost will check and get back to you on specifics later. But I think that probably is not the issue - a couple of years ago I upgraded the power supply to support a new video card. All the drives are connected w Firewire. The mobo does not support USB2 so that is not an option. Also all the drives have an option for a direct AC power supply, and that is what I use. Will check when I am at the right computer - thank you!

02-19-2009, 06:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
linderman Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20,432 OS: win 2000 pro / Win XP pro My System	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost could be a short coming of the firewire driver too ................ in your shoes I would opt to buy and install a new PCI slot firewire controller card ........... these will have their own updated bios and will be more suited to running your drives ! firewire in its ealy days was a VERY buggy adventure ........ by the time firewire matured and achieved dependability the majority of the computing world had already tasted the vinegar of earlier firewire instability .......... a recent release controller card should address all your needs __________________ I still know nothing and I respect that fact, striving to improve and, along the way, help anyone that comes from the place that I used to be! Power Supply Selection LEARN TO BACK-UP YOUR DATA FREE & EASY YouTube - Runtime Software DriveImage XML tutorial Last edited by linderman; 02-19-2009 at 06:25 AM.

02-21-2009, 08:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost one more thing-- Sometimes but not always, when I go to the little menu where you can Safely Remove Hardware, I get a message Generic Volume cannot be stopped now because a program is still accessing it. --even though nothing should be accessing it. I usually then will turn off my computer and unplug the external hard drive

02-21-2009, 02:32 PM	#10 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost Do you have a link for killdisk? Also about the power supply, chipset, etc - do you think my system just can't handle this size of external drive?

02-21-2009, 03:02 PM	#11 (permalink)
linderman Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20,432 OS: win 2000 pro / Win XP pro My System	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost external drives connected to "another" controller like the card or even the motherboards onboard USB controller just adds another "layer" to the fray I would advise you only use one external drive at a time .......... otherwise you are asking for trouble killdisk http://www.killdisk.com/downloadfree.htm __________________ I still know nothing and I respect that fact, striving to improve and, along the way, help anyone that comes from the place that I used to be! Power Supply Selection LEARN TO BACK-UP YOUR DATA FREE & EASY YouTube - Runtime Software DriveImage XML tutorial

02-21-2009, 04:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
raptor_pa Mod Hardware Team Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 4,777 OS: XP	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost Complex folder structures also may not display instantly. Even my laptop structure is not that complex, but sometimes it takes a bit till it populates completely, that is on a Pentium M 2.4 with 2 GB ram, so long as it finds it. And as Linderman said, externals add a couple layers of translation to the sequence.. Data comes off the drive in ATA format... enclosure must translate to a format USB can handle, then on the PC end, the USB has to get put back onto the ATA bus.- Or in your case sub firewire for USB - same concept. __________________

02-22-2009, 06:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost hi, many thanks to you both. Killdisk is running - is it really supposed to take 10 hours on a 500G drive? As far as I could tell I set Killdisk to the simplest parameters. Has another 2 hours to go, so unfortunately I cannot report back as yet. I seemed to have trouble getting Killdisk to start and I did a quick format of the drive first, then Killdisk seemed to accept it ok, or maybe I just was not patient enough the first time. I will keep this advice re just 1 external at a time in mind. So far with only 1 drive connected besides C I have never had a problem. I do think though I might have some kind of pagefile or Master File Table problem on C - maybe or maybe not contributing to these other issues? The reason I decided to try to have most of my data off C onto externals was that, though my 149G C had maybe 30G free, the Master File Table was listed as 99% in use and things were very very slow - much improved by having data moved and MFT down to around 65% in use (very surprising to me that it was still that much with only 30G or so in use on a 149G drive). The utility I was using was the one where you go into Defragment - Analyze and then view the report. Last edited by newbee_4; 02-22-2009 at 06:41 PM.

02-22-2009, 07:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
raptor_pa Mod Hardware Team Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 4,777 OS: XP	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost The MFT will slow things down. but small files are often written directly into MFT space. The partition table or MFT on the C drive should not affect any other drives, each of htem have their own P-Table and MFT. 10 Hours to wipe a 500 GB drive is about right keep in mind every sector on the drive is completely written with zeros. __________________

02-22-2009, 09:13 PM	#16 (permalink)
raptor_pa Mod Hardware Team Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 4,777 OS: XP	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost After killdisk there is no partition table to find, this is a 'factory fresh' disk, unlike externals which usually come preformatted. It should show the device in disk management, as disk 1 if this is the only other drive connected other than your OS drive, then right click on the disk and select initialize- create a partition and format it. __________________

02-24-2009, 05:06 AM	#17 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost I did a full format and look to be good to go. One last question - do you think 1T, even if there is just one external drive attached, is too big in some way for my elderly system? How about a 500G external firewire drive? If need be I can get a couple of smaller drives, it will be well worth it to avoid big problems down the line. Thank you very much!

02-24-2009, 07:00 AM	#18 (permalink)
linderman Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 20,432 OS: win 2000 pro / Win XP pro My System	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost with one drive attached I think you will be fine ............. always keep your data backed-up ............. thats the golden rule for safe computing ........... mechanical drive failure can rear its ugly head at any time ! read the turtorial in my signature IMHO you would have to have a real kick butt system to get away with large data transfers between two external drives ............. just plain ole too much translation in that process ........ __________________ I still know nothing and I respect that fact, striving to improve and, along the way, help anyone that comes from the place that I used to be! Power Supply Selection LEARN TO BACK-UP YOUR DATA FREE & EASY YouTube - Runtime Software DriveImage XML tutorial

03-08-2009, 08:02 AM	#19 (permalink)
newbee_4 I helped the forums. Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 183 OS: win xp	Re: External Firewire Hard Drives getting lost sorry for the delay in reply, I've been laid up - medical stuff. Anyway - thanks for everything! I think I'm back to stability, please feel free to mark this solved. Last edited by newbee_4; 03-08-2009 at 08:03 AM.