jedtimmer

28-AUG-06 / www.techsupportforum.com - Hardware

Have similar problem to some described here for a week now. Actually, it looks like a 2-fold problem - possible CMOS/CPU plus loss of HD master function. The CMOS error occurs with or without HD connected.

Sorry about the long post. Thought I'd get all the details down in one
shot.


A. Problems Detail
-----------------

CMOS checksum error & Lost HD Master function

SPECS:
Win XP Pro SP2; Celeron 2.66 GHz; 256 mB RAM;
40 GB HD (WD); PARTITIONS: C: = FAT 32 / D: = NTFS; (50/50)
Western Digital HD (2004)
Phoenix Award BIOS v6.00 PG, (2005)
Motherboard: MICRO-STAR MS 6787
------------------------------------

No boot to Win XP one morning. Nothing new installed nor major
changes made. No known recent virus infection. Kept
re-booting endlessly:

(1) 1st screen = logo, w/ following message at bottom:

"Press TAB for POST, DEL to enter SETUP"

(2) Then:

"CMOS Checksum error - defaults loaded
Warning! CPU has changed. or CPU ratio changed fail
Please re-enter CPU settings in the CMOS setup and remember to save
before exit!"

Press F1 to continue, DEL to enter SETUP"

(3) Then displays mid-screen "POWER SAVING" message (in normal
operation, this same msg screens normally for 5 seconds just before
pc shuts down - but it appears to be associated w/ a particular type
monitor).

Then it recycles to (1) again and so on...

If I press F1 (at end of (2), above), get the regular device detect
screen on top and "verifying DMI pool data ...." message at
bottom and then "starting..."

Then the looping repeats...

Pulled BIOS battery & pwr plug to let things bleed off and reset
BIOS. Ran w/o the battery. Not much dif. Battery OK (> 3 Vdc).

Changing a few things temporarily in the BIOS didn't help.
If disabled "quick boot" though, the screen would hang at
"Press TAB for POST screen, Delete for Setup". Had to pull the
BIOS battery to reset BIOS to get operational again.
---------------------

UPDATE:

Recently I noted that changing just about any
setting whatever (even 'Quickboot disable' from 'enable')
causes a hangup at the " POST.... Press DEL...." screen.
That is, pressing TAB or DEL won't work. I have to pull
the BIOS battery each time to return to 'normal' ops.
-----------------------

Settings in BIOS all look OK. Most are automatic anyway. Health
good. All voltages within +/- 5%. Both fans going. Also tried
"optimal settings". "Fail Safe defaults" and "optimum settings"
choices make no dif.

-----------------------

UPDATE:

1 - w/ my other monitor, I don't get the "Power Save" logo.

2 - Removing or moving the BIOS jumper for clearing charge on
CMOS works a bit faster; that's all. I did later note that
when, apparently, the charge has totally leaked off and
the jumper is removed, the power on" button won't work.
(just hope I got the right jumper there! It says "JBAT1".
Nothing much else around).

-----------------------

B. Additional info
----------------

(1) On each boot, the HD was recognized OK but boot
would recycle before it ever got to Windows.

(2) The system boots OK to DOS via floppy.

Can get into drive C: (FAT 32) OK, via DOS diskette boot,
to access all files on C: - but not into D:, the NTFS partition
(one reason I prefer FAT 32).

(3) The HD works OK in the spare comp - but only as "Slave";
so full data recovery is no problem. The following tests were
made w/ the HD as Slave in spare pc:

(4) ran 'chkdsk' on both partitions. Windows reports no
problems - but shows the old 1 MB in bad sectors on C:. Next...

(5) ran a full 'Scandisk' on both partitions. All I got after
about 15 minutes of Phase 1 and 2 was "Scan complete".
No report. Next...

(6) checked Device Manager - OK. Troubleshooter wasn't
much use (there was no branch option for a Master or Slave
configuration problem and all else was irrelevant or OK).

(7) When I first used this comp 6 months ago, did a chkdsk
and found around 1MB of bad sectors. There's no change in
the nr of bad sectors.

Haven't tried replacing it w/ another HD yet. Understand the
HD install was only about 18 months old. Mfr date = 2004.

Wondering now if some more (critical) sectors went bad and
which are preventing the boot to the OS. Yet neither ChkDsk
nor Scandisk found any problem. If the MBR was affected,
there should have been some indication.

Like to test the spare pc's HD in the bad HD comp, just
to 100% rule out other system problems. I hesitate for now
because:

* Bad HD works OK as "Slave" in spare comp - but not as
Master. If jumper it for Master or CS, exact same problem
recurs at the spare pc as at my pc. Seems to imply
an HD only (or, simultaneous) problem. Otherwise, it should
run OK as a Master at spare pc.

--------------
Update: am advised to check out the CMOS problem first as
this is where I get the one and only error message. Well, we can
rule out a battery problem. It's OK. Moreover, it's not logical
since the battery is primarily a convenience. A PC, once set up
should work OK without it (in a bind).

Elsewhere, a 'memtest' was advised (yet to do), along w/
cap leak and pwr sup checks. Electrolytics look OK - otherwise
they'd corrode the board. Still. Not tried PS replacement yet.

I think the above are mainly "clutching at straws" type trial solutions
(in this case) since, for one, all the CPU voltages (at least) check OK
under CMOS "Health" and secondly, as far as the HD problem is
concerned, exactly the same symptoms occur at the spare comp.
It just won't work as Master any more.

In any case, the advice to check out the CMOS problem first, now
seems sound to me; though, as I've said, it looks pretty well like
I've been hit with 2 simultaneous faults - CMOS/CPU(?) & HD.

-------------

( Oddly enough, spare comp had similar non-stop re-boot problem
some weeks ago! at which time I went thru tons of diagnostics, virus
checks, boards reseating, disassembly/re-assembly - and found nothing;
yet the problem just disappeared after all that).

* So, am reluctant to put the now good spare-comp HD into my
own system as yet (to prove that there's nothing amiss w/ my
system) lest the transfer operation might cause the same
problem to re-emerge at the *spare* HD or comp. That would
leave me with NO system at all; and I don't have any other
HD to spare for the test.

So I'll leave that for a potentially last-resort check.


C. QUESTIONS
--------------

1. Would there be a utility available via which one
could get either a screenshot or a text copy of the
BIOS settings for one's future ref?

2. What can I do to get my HD to work as Master again?
Would re-formating it help?

3. Regarding the HD and the boot mechanics, believe I remember
something from the old days where one had to have an un-damaged
Sector 1 on a Floppy or HD to be able to boot from it. I thought
that this requirement had been done away with. If the latter
still holds, would it do any good to re-partition and re-format
the HD, assuming Sector 1 had sustained damage? Can anyone
answer this question with any authority?

4. I know nothing about the mechanics of updating BIOS. Since
it has to be "flashed" (another concept I'm unclear on), would
this be done automatically somehow by the update software
itself, via floppy boot and run?

5. As regards the "...Warning! CPU has changed. or CPU ratio
changed fail ...", etc., CMOS error message, it makes little
sense to me and while either "fail safe default" or "optimum..."
selections should work, nothing makes the slightest difference.

What exactly is meant by these brief 2 statements?

---------------------------------------

Note: Since I've just read thru some BIOS/CMOS info
and checked out Western Digital, I'm now inclined to
believe there's been a possible virus infection
at either or both the BIOS/CMOS memory or at HD MBR.
I've read that modern BIOS (since 1996) may be susceptible
to infection as all are flash types nowadays.

However, AVG and McAfee probably don't check the MBR
(much less the BIOS) of a *SLAVE" drive for MBR
infections - as this might not be the norm. Yet this is
the only way I can scan those 2 partitions.

Is there any free, effective AV around that will fit on a
floppy so that I can scan the master parttition while
the HD is jumpered as Master in my own suspect PC?
or in the spare PC?


Thanx in advance for any advice/assist on this issue.

Jed...

Zazula

1. Can you please try powering the problematic computer with the functional PSU from your main PC?

2. Is you motherboard an MSI P4MAM-V?

jedtimmer

6:48 PM 8/29/2006

Thanx much for the advice, Zazula.

1. Have considered this but that's the whole problem. No spares and don't want risk what's
working in what's not working - yet; tho' looks like I may have to in the end. I considered
that, as a last resort, I'd try a Memory, PSU and HD exchange - but only after some decent
preliminary diagnostics, which I haven't gotten around to yet - but maybe start tonight.
First I have to check and make sure everything's compatible before I resort to device exchanges.

I realize that there's a possibility it could conceivably be caused by any of these latter 3
(plus others). I kind of doubt it's the PSU because all voltages check normal (tho', you never
know, some could be a bit 'dirty').

I think I've said before, it looks like have 2 problems - there's the BIOS message AND the
fact that the HD won't work as a Master any more - at either PC. This almost indicates a
"common" problem (or maybe one caused the other). Possibly even a virus infection - but
nothing shows up when I scan the HD connected as Slave at spare pc. Means I have to scan it as Master in
original pc (best) via DOS - which is why am looking for an AV that's small enough to fit
on floppy; or may have to try via CD. All I know right now is that I can access the
primary partition via DOS boot at the original comp and both partitions when it's hooked
as Slave in the spare pc, via Win XP.

Have a few more sources to check on Net b4 digging in. Got to be careful.
Don't want blow my spare comp too.

You understand, the reason I don't overly suspect the PSU is because, first
and foremost, there appears to be a BIOS or microprocessor problem, as
indicated by the BIOS message - and which must be fixed first, if possible.

Both the BIOS (in particular) and the
processor don't draw all that much current when there's no OS to process.
The processor only drags down the PSU when it's doing some heavy work,
especially graphics and games (which I don't mess with anyway); and the fact is that the sensor reports a good core voltage and also all good standard
PSU output voltages. As a result, a PSU exchange is lowest on my list
of priorities at moment. But don't worry, I'll get to it in due time.

2. As noted in last post, Mobo model = MICRO-STAR MS 6787. If I could get Everest or Belarc
Adisor, et al, to run at that pc, I could probably get a bit more info on it but I think they
both need Windows. I'll see if I've something stashed away (or find on Net) that'll do it via DOS.

So, thanx for now and will let you know. You may be right. We'll see.

Jed...

jedtimmer

PS. Appreciate the link, also, but just can't open it eight now. Lousy line
or something. If it's not one thing, it's another. Always like that here. Get to
it later.

Jed...

Zazula

1. I suggested trying the other PSU because it's a very simple task (if you make sure to connect everything right) - 4 or 5 screws only, and it's gone.

2. Microstar's site does not state an MS 6787; it has the P4MAM-V instead, and I'm asking because I want to go through its manual.

jedtimmer

OK. Roger on that. Will do.

On the Micro-star, I did find some stuff on the MS-6787 - including a beautiful
layout diagram. Think may have also seen P4MAM-V. Don't know what it all means but maybe it's one and the same. Have to check.

Frankly, I've been just downloading and downloading tons of stuff on the issues, blindly, without as yet having sorted and read. That's next phase.

Doing that first so don't screw up and to assemble all possible tools & data before attempt the surgery. Also waiting for friend to bring around old comp
for parts substitution purposes (if compatible). But you're right. I'll try the PSU first.

The mobo layout diagram from Microstar does look to be quite accurate - exact layout as mine, I'd say. So far, I only noted 1 possible thing different or amiss - the battery jumper is shown in the discharge position. I know it's wrong because my comp won't even turn on with jumper in that position.

I will try look into the MS 6787/ P4MAM-V thing later and let you know but
my friend'd friend already calling me to check his pc this afternoon. Always
something gets in the way of sched.

Still got to check all I downloaded over past few days. What are you telling me - that these are 2 different Microstar motherboard models?

If you can give me an email address maybe I can send you what I got as
an attachment. I did have to do a lot of hunting and tricky stuff to find
what I wanted.

A lot of sites don't make things very obvious. Most of the time it's pure luck or persistance that gets one what one's after.

In the case of the Epson Stylus C65 printer here, for instance, it was an unbelievable 12-hr battle to get anywhere. alk about efficiency...

Finally, I found an "on-line" manual (at least) at Epson Australia site - the
only site w/ a manual for that model that I found. No problem getting the driver but they neglected to mention that the carriage wouldn't move over to allow replacement of the cartridge unless you also had their "monitoring" ap installed. At least everything finally went OK when I installed that part.

On the PSU, I just noted it's 420 W in my demobilized pc and it's only 300 W
at my current, working, spare PC. Might be OK because mine has a small mobo and hardly anything in it (except for the higher-speed 2.66 GHz Celeron), while the spare's got more peripheral junk, bigger mobo and 1.7 GHz
Pentium. So if all that in the spare pc can run w/ only a 300W supply, I
think it should be OK in my own pc for just 5 minutes of tests.

Thanks again for your input. I better get going now.

Regards,

Jed...

jedtimmer

8/31/2006 - 5:57 PM / Thailand time.

To: Zazula

This is a quick(?) follow-up to let you know how it went with the PSU
exchange. That's all.

The good news is, nothing blown by changing to the 'under-wattage'
PSU. The not-so-good news is, no change. Changed the mem board while
at it, too. No dif either. Saves on a long mem test, I'd say (?)

90% of me expected this. Glad it's done, though; and thanks for
the push (I'm always leary of Murphy's Law. Burned to many times.
Makes me reluctant to take any more risks, however slight).

Learned a few things in the process. Among them, opened up PSU to
clean out the dust (every bit helps) and found 3 very slightly
bulging-at-the-top 2200 mfd/10V electrolytic caps w/ slight,
dried leakage at their tops. Not too serious yet but candidates for
near-term replacement - under anyone's PM program.

Secondly, found that at least one device had to be attached (ex: HD,
CD_ROM or Floppy drive, I think it was), or the boot stops dead
at the "...POST... ...DEL..." screen - and nothing can be done.

Naturally, I'd first tried the under-wattage PSU under min load
conditions, for the obvious reasons and also, as I was mainly only
*initially* interested in the BIOS - not in any attached devices.

The above revelation, however, confused me even more; as it seems to
say "no device connected; no error message", hence, *no error* at
the BIOS. At least that's one interpretation. The error message
stage is reached only when at least one of the abovementioned
devices is connected. Now I don't know what to think.

The above notwithstanding, the results were same, BTW - all negative
- with or without the HD in the case and connected (although
"something" had to be connected before the "error" even surfaced.

Still, to me, the 1st and main problem appears to be (reiterate -
"appears to be") related the CMOS, micro-p or mobo somewhere, as
indicated by the BIOS error message, which screens long before the
HD and/or OS come into play - altho' the HD's "physical presence"
is, in fact, detected correctly by the BIOS right after the
"...POST... ...DEL..." screen and just before it goes into that
(SUCCESSFUL) "Verifying DMI pool data..." routine.

Right after that, instead of booting to the OS, it loops back to
square one and repeats the process ad infinitum.

All this doesn't seem to have anything to do w/ the PSU, nor w/
the simultaneously developed problem at the HD (no Master boot).

Let me reiterate, however, that I do have 'access' to the prime
partition (FAT32), via DOS floppy boot.

To lay the whole thing to rest once and for all, I only need 5
minutes w/ somebody's old HD. I don't dare use my spare comp HD.

I don't know that much about how the BIOS works but I suppose
it's just conceivable that such a message could result when a
Master HD is missing - or is there but corrupted. This would
then account for the fact that the message occurs even when other
devices are attached (while HD is disconnected).

If so, the programmer responsible for that kind of exasperating
nonsense knows what should be done w/ him/her. The message makes
no sense. It explains nothing; it is clear only to the party
who set up the BIOS program.

But I kind of doubt anyone would be that retarded. So it's more
than likely that it's nothing to do with the HD - and this is what
has already been pounded into me by another MS MVP. But then again,
nobody knows it all; not 100% of the time.

Never mind. Let me try some more tests now first, soon as I sort
out all the tools and data I've downloaded (probably couple hundred
Meg by now). In the process, I might also find that mobo item you
were referring to earlier.

Thanks for the push. Let you know.

Jed...

jedtimmer

9:00 PM 8/31/2006
------------------

To: Zazula

Just a quick post re the motherboard types and links.


1. Here's some info on the Motherboard and those numbers you
mentioned. From: E6787v1.1.pdf - MS 6787 Manual
(downloaded from some Micro-Star site)
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"Getting Started

Thank you for choosing the P4MAM Series (MS-6787 v1.
X) micro ATX mainboard. The P4MAM Series is based on VIA®
VT8751A & VT8235 chipsets for optimal system efficiency.
Designed to fit the advanced Intel® Pentium® 4 processors in
478 pin package, the P4MAM Series delivers a high performance
and professional desktop platform solution."


(I'll have to go back to that site as I have a version 2.0 board.
Also need to check if my 2.66 GB Celeron has a 478 socket or what).

--------------------------------------------------------------------


2. I also downloaded the flash BIOS ap - have to double check it
(for version 2 board).

There are some links to that site, at least, given in the below
extract from their readme.doc :

---------------------------------------------------------------

"Download the BIOS that matches your motherboard AND version number
(some motherboards are named like K7T Turbo, make sure you have the
right version number). BIOS can be found according to the CPU type
of your board like if your CPU is Intel P4 478 type then look here

http://www.msi.com.tw/support/bios/socket_478.php

if you cannot find the BIOS that matches your board, try here
http://www.msi.com.tw/support/bios/more.php"

----------------------------------------------------------------

I'm a bit confused over their explanation of how to flash the
BIOS. At top of readme.doc they state: "DON'T FLASH YOUR BIOS
FROM A FLOPPY!!!" but give no reason why. Looks like the file
has to be saved to the master drive FAT32 partition. I'll
have to re-analyze that article a bit more closely as I can't
boot to the master (and I don't have a spare master to risk).

However, their method may work OK as I can access the
partition via DOS. Anyhow, know nothing about and no
experience w/ 'flashing' BIOS. Must be real careful
here as BIOS chip is soldered in.

Any advice?

That's all for now. Just starting to tiptoe into things.

Regards,

Jed...

jedtimmer

10:20 AM (locaL) 1-SEP-06

To: Zazula

Here's some more info/links re the items you refer to in your last post.

The below (between the dashed lines) were my choices when I selected the
Manual, BIOS update, etc. at the Micro-Star site. At their menu (on-line
form selector), I couldn't narrow it down any closer.

I got a version 1 manual via this route, whereas I see now that my model
mobo is MS 6787 version 2. Also, I'm not yet sure on the VIA spec... .

Consequently, I'm not sure now I've got the correct BIOS update. I'm still
looking for an old Belarc Advisor record. I did find a record of a driver
backup archive I'd made and which contains an

"S3 Graphics ProSavageDDR (Microsoft Corporation)"

driver backup. I'm hoping that this is what the below VIA choice refers to.
But I didn't see anything about a "version 2" motherboard at the site.

Here is what I selected at their on-line form. There were 4 entries
required and each one had several fixed items to choose from. I chose
the following 4:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mainboard / Socket 478(Intel P4) / VIA(R) ProSavageDDR(TM) P4M266A / P4MAM-L

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've saved the main "download" page as a full htm file to my pc. Am looking
at it now but don't know how to give you the exact url for it. Also, I've
not saved it under its exact original name. However, near the top there
are 2 links which look like the jackpot. I've checked their 'properties'
and copied the urls to just below here.

My htm page also contains all the download links to BIOS, MANUAL, DRIVER
and to over a dozen support files and aps. Most of the aps are free, useful
but optional 3rd-party adjuncts, like, for example, USB, LAN and VIA chip
drivers and memory booster, sys info viewer, file and folder locks and so on.
I downloaded everything I needed from this page.


This main "download" page I'm looking at now has following items/links at top:

Location: (1) Download » Mainboard » (2) Download overall page

Link (1) = http://www.msi.com.tw/program/support/spt_index.php
Link (2) = http://www.msi.com.tw/program/suppor...ist.php?kind=1


That's all for now.

Jed...

jedtimmer

Looks like 2nd link got abbreviated in the last post:

Link (2) = http://www.msi.com.tw/program/suppor...ist.php?kind=1

Jed...

Zazula

Jedtimmer, you've mentioned in your first posts that you cannot make your HDD work as a master in your spare computer. This is to be expected even if the HDD was fully functional, because the OS in an HDD that is master in another pc, is set to a completely different configuration; in XP you can't simply swap OS HDDs between different computers.

Now, about your motherboard version. I've pointed out to you that you have the -V model (which happens to be version 2); you were most probably looking at the -L model (which is version 1). Look at the link provided below, you'll see everything is v.2: http://www.msi.com.tw/program/suppor...UID=586&kind=1

Download from the page linked above all the drivers you're going to need, as well as the file 6787v26.zip which contains BIOS v.2.6 for your board. The zipped folder includes the flash utility, as well. BEWARE! The document in the zipped folder that supposedly describes how to flash your BIOS, will confuse you rather than help you. I will provide you instructions in my next post. In the meantime, you go and download all the files suggested in this post, create all necessary media and have them handy, study the relevant documentation (i.e. apart from the bios flash!) and wait for my next post. As soon as you get those instructions, then you will flash your BIOS and after that you will move on to actually performing the ensuing steps provided herein.

Reset your CMOS. Check out your BIOS Setup settings after the CMOS is cleared, are the correct ones.

Download the Windows Memory Diagnostic utility, create bootable media (floppy or CD), change the boot sequense in bios setup and let it run for ~6 hours.

Backup everything from the problematic HDD via slaving it to your spare pc. Download the Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for DOS (CD), create a bootable CD, change the boot sequence if needed and run it to zero and partition your HDD.

Continue with a Windows XP Clean installation.

Zazula

Jedtimmer, here's what you have to do in order to flash your BIOS:

1. You have downloaded 6787v26.zip in your spare pc. This zipped folder contains:
• 6787.txt > this is the BIOS Release info sheet for V2.6 - ignore it.
• AWFL826B.EXE > this is the Flash utility - this one you'll definitely need it.
• How to flash the BIOS.doc > these are supposedly helpful instructions that you won't need.
• W6787vms.260 > this is the V2.6 Award BIOS for your motherboard.

2. Create a Windows ME or 98 startup floppy disk from your spare pc.
(Insert a floppy disk into your computer's floppy drive. Open My Computer, and then click the floppy disk drive to select it. On the File menu, point to the name of the floppy drive, and then click Format. Under Format options, click Create an MS-DOS startup disk. Click Start.)

3. Format a second floppy diskette and extract there the AWFL826B.EXE and W6787vms.260 files.
(Double-click each of the two files in Windows mode and supply the path a:\)

4. Boot the problematic pc and immediately get into the BIOS Setup settings. Try to locate a setting named "BIOS FLASH DISABLED" and, if present, change it to ENABLED. You may find it under BIOS setup>chipset setup>BIOS protection>disabled --> this becomes enabled.

5. Save the changes in BIOS Setup and Exit, while inserting the startup floppy; the pc reboots and when the boot concludes, there will be a message on the screen showing: "Diagnostic tools were successfully loaded to drive" followed by a single letter. This letter is the leter assigned to the RAMDRIVE. This RAMDRIVE is a virtual drive in the system memory and can be accessed and controlled like any other drive with DOS commands such as: MD - Make Directory, COPY - Copy a file, DEL - Delete a file, etc. (There is one important difference which is that being in the system memory this drive is wiped once the computer is restarted or shut down.)

6. Replace the startup floppy with the one containing the Flash utility and Bios ROM files previously extracted in Windows.

7. Copy these two files to the RAMDRIVE (we suppose it was assigned the letter D) by using the DOS command copy.
8. Change the current working directory to the RAMDRIVE root directory; supposing the RAMDRIVE being drive D, this is done by simply typing:
9. Execute the Flash utility with the ROM file as a command line argument:
10. Reboot your system when prompted.