Building hidden computer

Partholon · 03-22-2009, 01:55 PM

Not too long ago i fell into a good chuck of money so i decided to spend some of it finishing my home office and building a new computer. I just finished the office and now its time for the computer, but i was trying to think a little outside the box when it came to its placment and its cooling.

Basically my desk is against a wall the likes of which has an unused closet on the other side. So i was thinking it might be interesting to build the computer into that closet and then use wireless (bluetooth?) for my Keyboard and mouse and run the wires for an external Rom drive, monitors, maybe a USB/firewirehub through the wall to the office side.

Heres a basic painbrush image of what the office is like.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2391/office.png

My thinking is, i can build a fairly monster rig with a ton of fans and such and not have to hear the darn thing when its on. When the computer is technically in another room, loud fans become nonissue.

The problem is, i have little/no experience with "external" drives and usb hubs or wireless keyboard/mouses. Im worries that running them through the wall (granted not very far) will impact the performance. So heres the questions:

How well do wireless keyboard/mouses work when going through a wall?

Do external dvd-burners compare in performance to normal internal?

Is there any significant reason that i wouldn't want my computer to be in a different room? (there is no enterence into that closet from the office)

Im spending a good chunk of money on the project and i'm just not willing to sacrifice too much performance. I do a lot of video and image editing, and a little bit of online gaming so im particularly fussy when it comes to mouse and keyboard accuracy.

thanks in advance

**WereBo** · 03-23-2009, 07:42 AM

Allo Partholon

So far as wireless K'Board/Mouse etc. are concerned, I'd guess the distance from the PC box to desk would be approx 4 feet or less so, unless you have steel beams passing trough the wall, there shouldn't be any problems with that - My logitech K'board/Mouse has a range of at least 20 feet through several concrete walls (I can't test it any further, I run out of apartment

Re: USB CD/DVD burners, the main 'snag' is that USB-2 is only 480Mb/second, so you'd be burning/reading CD/DVD's veeerrry slowly. I know that external drives are available, but to date, that's their biggest drawback, slow speeds compared to internal units.

Unless you can find an extension monitor cable, you'd be limited to positioning the system by the length of your present cable on the monitor.

Depending on the size and specs of your rig + the length of time that it's on, you might need an air-vent in the closet, just to let some cool air in, otherwise you'd be recirculating the hot air from the PC, warming it up each time through the box.

[Thinks] With some cunning planning, you might be able to use an 'extractor' fan to pull the warm air out of the closet and use it to help warm the main room up

It's an intriguing idea though, as you say, you shouldn't have any problems with noise etc.

Partholon · 03-23-2009, 05:42 PM

Im glad to hear that the keyboard and mouse would work, but the rom drive has me worried now. It would be silly to have to leave the room every time i wanted to put a disk in. im not sure how i can work around this issue, performance is #1.

As far as ventilation, im doing a new Hvac this spring, i can simply have a vent installed in that closet, the likes of which already has the runnings above it. That would keep it super cool in the summer and in the winter months ide just keep the vent closed (this closet is quite chilly with the door closed as of rite now, far colder then normal room temperature. i could always just open the door anyhow. The room that this closet is part of is just a guest room that is very rarely used anyhow. Origionaly i was considering putting an exterior vent on that closet (the one wall touches outside) but i have limited experience with vents and so i prob wont do it.

I already have an extra long monitor cable so im not worried about that.

Any suggestions as to what case i should get? im looking for absolute max performance. looks (obviously) mean nothing at all nor does how quite it is. That being the case maybe im better off building my own from scratch? I am an experienced carpenter so the the building wont be a problem, but i don't know how it would compare to the calculated mechanics of airflow in a factory built box. Can i match or possibly better the airflow in something i make? Remember size and cosmetics are 100% non issue.

I've googled it but havent come up with any good case plans for my purpose, the only stuff i've found are cases designed to be "pretty" not maximize cooling.

**WereBo** · 03-23-2009, 07:25 PM

I'm not really clued up on the various PC cases and what's the best for cooling and so on, but there's lots of threads here covering that topic, or another more clued-up member can chip in with some suggestions. There's also some posts about wooden cases here, too. They might give you some ideas about a wooden case. As long as you cut holes for fans, there's not a great problem with cooling.

One thing I've just thought of though, is switching the thing on, your present suggestion would entail having to walk through into the closet to hit the power switch, every time you wanted to switch it on. Depending on your building skills, could you build a PC front shaped hole in the wall, so just the front of the PC is flush with the wall on your side?

That way, you could power-up when you wanted and also have access to an internal CD/DVD drive in the PC, eliminating the need for a USB-drive.

Partholon · 03-24-2009, 09:14 AM

I already thought about how to turn it on, basically just extend the wires that are already attached to the case i used and run then through the wall into whatever switch i like. Or if im building a case from scratch - even easier just choose how long i want the power up wires to be and run them through. I could prob come up with a cool switch attached to my desk for powering up and down. still having trouble finding the best case for cooling though

Partholon · 03-24-2009, 03:27 PM

i wanted to edit my last post to add this , but it wouldnt let me:

One thing i forgot to mention and may or may not be clear is - im absolutely not willing to go with water cooling. Im paranoid about leaks and checking water levels and such isnt something i want to have to bother doing. Just wana put it in that nooke and only have to open it up every month or so to ensure no dust buildup.

Ive also been toying with the idea BTX form factor but ide have to do more research on it. still no luck finding building plans for the absolute best case cooling. Can be ugly, can be loud as a hot rod but all i seem to find are cases that comprimise. The closet is 8 feet by 4.5 feet, i have a lot of room, is there such thing as "too big" when it comes to computer cases for cooling?

**wrench97** · 03-24-2009, 03:44 PM

BTX is a dead horse I think the only BTX boards you'll find still around are P965 or P945.

The switch only needs to be any momentary switch like a door bell switch.

If you run a USB hub on your desk the receiver of the keyboard /mouse can go there or run the receiver wire through the wall and plug in directly.

The Antec 900 is good for cooling as is the CoolerMaster Cosmos but pricey.
Or the CoolerMaster HAF, probably a good idea to vent the closet somehow otherwise you'll just circulate hot air in the case.

Another way to think about this (out side the box

) is why do you need a case? I have an old P90 mounted to the bottom of a HO train platform works fine, with a newer system you'll need to add a fan to blow over the motherboard and of course a decent CPU cooler but without the case the components are not confined so air circulation is naturally better.

**grimx133** · 03-24-2009, 09:37 PM

I was thinking along the same lines as wrench. Build it in the open and use monster house type fans, you could get some serious airflow going. Or use a testbench type non-case, here's a link to highspeed pc, may be the sort of thing you're looking for.
http://www.highspeedpc.com/

Partholon · 03-26-2009, 05:15 PM

an open case like the pic in the link that grimx133 posted seems like a really good idea. The only reason i was leaning toward a more traditional case to begin with is because A. i thought that spesfic air movement in a computer case was spesfically designed to be superior (which is why i see people all the time say that you shouldnt get much benefit leaving the side of your case open) and B. i was worried about excessive dust build up without one.

But upon futher consideration, there really shouldnt be much dust in a room that is never used as most dust is just human skin.

I could build a little rack like that easly, do you guys think that is the optimal way to lay a board? flat down like that rather then on its side as per typical.

I think that having the PSU below the mobo is somewhat less then ideal as it does generate some upward heat. so i could mout it rite next to rather then below. What if i were to sandwich the motherboard between two very large house fans? one sucking one blowing, would that be pretty good for cooling?

(by the way it has been decided, there will be an AC duct in that closet, recirculation of hot air should not be a problem)

great help thanks for the dialog

**wrench97** · 03-26-2009, 05:23 PM

1 house fan will be more then enough.
In a closed room like a closet are you also planning a return duct? Another thought will the duct also supply heat in the winter, you may want to be able to switch off in that case.

**WereBo** · 03-26-2009, 05:32 PM

If you're opting for an 'open' layout, I'd suggest the board is mounted horizontally - That way, the expansion cards will be vertical and not need the 'mounting' rail along the top, that the cards usually get bolted to.

Partholon · 03-26-2009, 05:45 PM

alright, looks like i've got a pretty good starting plan for the "case". ill build it this weekend maybe post a pic when im done. that is assuming i get my parts from newegg on Friday.

Any suggestions on how to deal with the rom drive delima? i hate the fact that externals are so slow. Is it possible to get a long sata wire and just build a casing around a normal internal drive to force it external?

By the way, im using the starter button from my first car as the turn on switch for the computer. I was 15 when my father passed and left me his mint, nearly all-origional 1958 DeSoto, which i (tragically) wrecked before i was 20. I kept some parts from it and thought that the trusty ol starter button would be perfect for the job (even with the car wrapped around a tree that old SOB would still turn over maybe it will bring that luck to my computer too)

I built the front of my desk to be something of a throw back to that old car, as the front of it is vaguely shaped like the dashboards curves. nothing tacky, just enough to taste the nostalgia/

**wrench97** · 03-26-2009, 05:56 PM

3' SataII cable> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812200075

Or perhaps a ESata connection 6'> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812123128
I like the starter button:)

**WereBo** · 03-26-2009, 06:39 PM

At least it will be a very tricky job to wrap the PC around a tree

Partholon · 03-27-2009, 08:11 AM

do those wires distances cause any significant hit to burning performance?

**wrench97** · 03-27-2009, 03:26 PM

With the 6' Esata I think you will see some loss but not a great deal or anywhere near as much as a USB drive.

Phædrus2401 · 03-28-2009, 12:11 AM

Who needs a case? If you don't care about looks, why not just mount the motherboard, hard drives, and everything else to a bare metal frame and put that under the blast from an AC vent? ;)

Might work, might not, but worth consideration, eh?

Partholon · 03-30-2009, 08:24 PM

can anyone suggest to me a good USB Hub and a hub or whatever it is for connecting Bluetooth devices? i have a few things (like my cel phone) that say they can use bluetooth but ive never used the technology and dont know what it is i need for the connectivity. thanks again for all the suggestions, im nearly finished building the base that my computer guts will be mounted on. i know i said i dont care about looks, but i think that it will look nice anyhow.

**wrench97** · 03-31-2009, 12:55 AM

There aren't any add in cards that I've seen for a PC one of these may work for you though. > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833340012

Partholon · 03-31-2009, 11:22 AM

is that what i would need to use a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse/gamepad and my cell phones bluetooth features? sorry im just a bit confused when it comes to bluetooth. also, how many different devices can i connect to one bluetooth hub?

im tying to go as wireless as possible, so that i can restrict the hole to as small as about a half dollar. (thats size of the surround plug i have for the hole ill be making)

I still haven't decided exactly what keyboard and mouse combo ill use, but im looking for something that has a charging station for the mouse. i freggin hate swapping out batts.

03-22-2009, 01:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Building hidden computer Not too long ago i fell into a good chuck of money so i decided to spend some of it finishing my home office and building a new computer. I just finished the office and now its time for the computer, but i was trying to think a little outside the box when it came to its placment and its cooling. Basically my desk is against a wall the likes of which has an unused closet on the other side. So i was thinking it might be interesting to build the computer into that closet and then use wireless (bluetooth?) for my Keyboard and mouse and run the wires for an external Rom drive, monitors, maybe a USB/firewirehub through the wall to the office side. Heres a basic painbrush image of what the office is like. http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2391/office.png My thinking is, i can build a fairly monster rig with a ton of fans and such and not have to hear the darn thing when its on. When the computer is technically in another room, loud fans become nonissue. The problem is, i have little/no experience with "external" drives and usb hubs or wireless keyboard/mouses. Im worries that running them through the wall (granted not very far) will impact the performance. So heres the questions: How well do wireless keyboard/mouses work when going through a wall? Do external dvd-burners compare in performance to normal internal? Is there any significant reason that i wouldn't want my computer to be in a different room? (there is no enterence into that closet from the office) Im spending a good chunk of money on the project and i'm just not willing to sacrifice too much performance. I do a lot of video and image editing, and a little bit of online gaming so im particularly fussy when it comes to mouse and keyboard accuracy. thanks in advance __________________ X Last edited by Partholon; 03-22-2009 at 01:57 PM.

03-23-2009, 07:42 AM	#2 (permalink)
WereBo Resident Village Idiot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 14,406 OS: Win-7, XP-Pro SP3 My System	Re: Building hidden computer Allo Partholon So far as wireless K'Board/Mouse etc. are concerned, I'd guess the distance from the PC box to desk would be approx 4 feet or less so, unless you have steel beams passing trough the wall, there shouldn't be any problems with that - My logitech K'board/Mouse has a range of at least 20 feet through several concrete walls (I can't test it any further, I run out of apartment Re: USB CD/DVD burners, the main 'snag' is that USB-2 is only 480Mb/second, so you'd be burning/reading CD/DVD's veeerrry slowly. I know that external drives are available, but to date, that's their biggest drawback, slow speeds compared to internal units. Unless you can find an extension monitor cable, you'd be limited to positioning the system by the length of your present cable on the monitor. Depending on the size and specs of your rig + the length of time that it's on, you might need an air-vent in the closet, just to let some cool air in, otherwise you'd be recirculating the hot air from the PC, warming it up each time through the box. [Thinks] With some cunning planning, you might be able to use an 'extractor' fan to pull the warm air out of the closet and use it to help warm the main room up It's an intriguing idea though, as you say, you shouldn't have any problems with noise etc. __________________ I shall meet all of my deadlines directly in proportion to the amount of bodily injury I could expect to receive from missing them.

03-23-2009, 05:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer Im glad to hear that the keyboard and mouse would work, but the rom drive has me worried now. It would be silly to have to leave the room every time i wanted to put a disk in. im not sure how i can work around this issue, performance is #1. As far as ventilation, im doing a new Hvac this spring, i can simply have a vent installed in that closet, the likes of which already has the runnings above it. That would keep it super cool in the summer and in the winter months ide just keep the vent closed (this closet is quite chilly with the door closed as of rite now, far colder then normal room temperature. i could always just open the door anyhow. The room that this closet is part of is just a guest room that is very rarely used anyhow. Origionaly i was considering putting an exterior vent on that closet (the one wall touches outside) but i have limited experience with vents and so i prob wont do it. I already have an extra long monitor cable so im not worried about that. Any suggestions as to what case i should get? im looking for absolute max performance. looks (obviously) mean nothing at all nor does how quite it is. That being the case maybe im better off building my own from scratch? I am an experienced carpenter so the the building wont be a problem, but i don't know how it would compare to the calculated mechanics of airflow in a factory built box. Can i match or possibly better the airflow in something i make? Remember size and cosmetics are 100% non issue. I've googled it but havent come up with any good case plans for my purpose, the only stuff i've found are cases designed to be "pretty" not maximize cooling. __________________ X

03-23-2009, 07:25 PM	#4 (permalink)
WereBo Resident Village Idiot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 14,406 OS: Win-7, XP-Pro SP3 My System	Re: Building hidden computer I'm not really clued up on the various PC cases and what's the best for cooling and so on, but there's lots of threads here covering that topic, or another more clued-up member can chip in with some suggestions. There's also some posts about wooden cases here, too. They might give you some ideas about a wooden case. As long as you cut holes for fans, there's not a great problem with cooling. One thing I've just thought of though, is switching the thing on, your present suggestion would entail having to walk through into the closet to hit the power switch, every time you wanted to switch it on. Depending on your building skills, could you build a PC front shaped hole in the wall, so just the front of the PC is flush with the wall on your side? That way, you could power-up when you wanted and also have access to an internal CD/DVD drive in the PC, eliminating the need for a USB-drive. __________________ I shall meet all of my deadlines directly in proportion to the amount of bodily injury I could expect to receive from missing them.

03-24-2009, 09:14 AM	#5 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer I already thought about how to turn it on, basically just extend the wires that are already attached to the case i used and run then through the wall into whatever switch i like. Or if im building a case from scratch - even easier just choose how long i want the power up wires to be and run them through. I could prob come up with a cool switch attached to my desk for powering up and down. still having trouble finding the best case for cooling though __________________ X

03-24-2009, 03:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer i wanted to edit my last post to add this , but it wouldnt let me: One thing i forgot to mention and may or may not be clear is - im absolutely not willing to go with water cooling. Im paranoid about leaks and checking water levels and such isnt something i want to have to bother doing. Just wana put it in that nooke and only have to open it up every month or so to ensure no dust buildup. Ive also been toying with the idea BTX form factor but ide have to do more research on it. still no luck finding building plans for the absolute best case cooling. Can be ugly, can be loud as a hot rod but all i seem to find are cases that comprimise. The closet is 8 feet by 4.5 feet, i have a lot of room, is there such thing as "too big" when it comes to computer cases for cooling? __________________ X

03-24-2009, 03:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,428 OS: Win7	Re: Building hidden computer BTX is a dead horse I think the only BTX boards you'll find still around are P965 or P945. The switch only needs to be any momentary switch like a door bell switch. If you run a USB hub on your desk the receiver of the keyboard /mouse can go there or run the receiver wire through the wall and plug in directly. The Antec 900 is good for cooling as is the CoolerMaster Cosmos but pricey. Or the CoolerMaster HAF, probably a good idea to vent the closet somehow otherwise you'll just circulate hot air in the case. Another way to think about this (out side the box) is why do you need a case? I have an old P90 mounted to the bottom of a HO train platform works fine, with a newer system you'll need to add a fan to blow over the motherboard and of course a decent CPU cooler but without the case the components are not confined so air circulation is naturally better. __________________ Power Supply and Selection

03-24-2009, 09:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
grimx133 Mentor Hardware Team Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada eh Posts: 3,133 OS: xp mce sp2, xp pro sp2, windows 7 beta My System	Re: Building hidden computer I was thinking along the same lines as wrench. Build it in the open and use monster house type fans, you could get some serious airflow going. Or use a testbench type non-case, here's a link to highspeed pc, may be the sort of thing you're looking for. http://www.highspeedpc.com/ __________________

03-26-2009, 05:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer an open case like the pic in the link that grimx133 posted seems like a really good idea. The only reason i was leaning toward a more traditional case to begin with is because A. i thought that spesfic air movement in a computer case was spesfically designed to be superior (which is why i see people all the time say that you shouldnt get much benefit leaving the side of your case open) and B. i was worried about excessive dust build up without one. But upon futher consideration, there really shouldnt be much dust in a room that is never used as most dust is just human skin. I could build a little rack like that easly, do you guys think that is the optimal way to lay a board? flat down like that rather then on its side as per typical. I think that having the PSU below the mobo is somewhat less then ideal as it does generate some upward heat. so i could mout it rite next to rather then below. What if i were to sandwich the motherboard between two very large house fans? one sucking one blowing, would that be pretty good for cooling? (by the way it has been decided, there will be an AC duct in that closet, recirculation of hot air should not be a problem) great help thanks for the dialog __________________ X

03-26-2009, 05:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,428 OS: Win7	Re: Building hidden computer 1 house fan will be more then enough. In a closed room like a closet are you also planning a return duct? Another thought will the duct also supply heat in the winter, you may want to be able to switch off in that case. __________________ Power Supply and Selection

03-26-2009, 05:32 PM	#11 (permalink)
WereBo Resident Village Idiot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 14,406 OS: Win-7, XP-Pro SP3 My System	Re: Building hidden computer If you're opting for an 'open' layout, I'd suggest the board is mounted horizontally - That way, the expansion cards will be vertical and not need the 'mounting' rail along the top, that the cards usually get bolted to. __________________ I shall meet all of my deadlines directly in proportion to the amount of bodily injury I could expect to receive from missing them.

03-26-2009, 05:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer alright, looks like i've got a pretty good starting plan for the "case". ill build it this weekend maybe post a pic when im done. that is assuming i get my parts from newegg on Friday. Any suggestions on how to deal with the rom drive delima? i hate the fact that externals are so slow. Is it possible to get a long sata wire and just build a casing around a normal internal drive to force it external? By the way, im using the starter button from my first car as the turn on switch for the computer. I was 15 when my father passed and left me his mint, nearly all-origional 1958 DeSoto, which i (tragically) wrecked before i was 20. I kept some parts from it and thought that the trusty ol starter button would be perfect for the job (even with the car wrapped around a tree that old SOB would still turn over maybe it will bring that luck to my computer too) I built the front of my desk to be something of a throw back to that old car, as the front of it is vaguely shaped like the dashboards curves. nothing tacky, just enough to taste the nostalgia/ __________________ X

03-26-2009, 05:56 PM	#13 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,428 OS: Win7	Re: Building hidden computer 3' SataII cable> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812200075 Or perhaps a ESata connection 6'> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16812123128 I like the starter button:) __________________ Power Supply and Selection

03-26-2009, 06:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
WereBo Resident Village Idiot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SE London, UK Posts: 14,406 OS: Win-7, XP-Pro SP3 My System	Re: Building hidden computer At least it will be a very tricky job to wrap the PC around a tree __________________ I shall meet all of my deadlines directly in proportion to the amount of bodily injury I could expect to receive from missing them.

03-27-2009, 08:11 AM	#15 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer do those wires distances cause any significant hit to burning performance? __________________ X

03-27-2009, 03:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,428 OS: Win7	Re: Building hidden computer With the 6' Esata I think you will see some loss but not a great deal or anywhere near as much as a USB drive. __________________ Power Supply and Selection Last edited by wrench97; 03-28-2009 at 02:04 AM.

03-28-2009, 12:11 AM	#17 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,732 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Building hidden computer Who needs a case? If you don't care about looks, why not just mount the motherboard, hard drives, and everything else to a bare metal frame and put that under the blast from an AC vent? ;) Might work, might not, but worth consideration, eh?

03-30-2009, 08:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer can anyone suggest to me a good USB Hub and a hub or whatever it is for connecting Bluetooth devices? i have a few things (like my cel phone) that say they can use bluetooth but ive never used the technology and dont know what it is i need for the connectivity. thanks again for all the suggestions, im nearly finished building the base that my computer guts will be mounted on. i know i said i dont care about looks, but i think that it will look nice anyhow. __________________ X

03-31-2009, 12:55 AM	#19 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,428 OS: Win7	Re: Building hidden computer There aren't any add in cards that I've seen for a PC one of these may work for you though. > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833340012 __________________ Power Supply and Selection

03-31-2009, 11:22 AM	#20 (permalink)
Partholon Registered User Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 67 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Building hidden computer is that what i would need to use a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse/gamepad and my cell phones bluetooth features? sorry im just a bit confused when it comes to bluetooth. also, how many different devices can i connect to one bluetooth hub? im tying to go as wireless as possible, so that i can restrict the hole to as small as about a half dollar. (thats size of the surround plug i have for the hole ill be making) I still haven't decided exactly what keyboard and mouse combo ill use, but im looking for something that has a charging station for the mouse. i freggin hate swapping out batts. __________________ X