First time build ($500), need major advice.

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 01:21 AM

Budget: I'm hoping around $500, but I can flex a little either way (more/less expensive). If it sounds like I'm going for overkill, I'll gladly step it down.

Brands: To be honest, I don't really know almost anything about hardware, so I don't care.

Multitasking: Yes, I do multitask alot.

Gaming: I do plan to do more gaming, once I finally get a computer with specs that can handle it. Probably fairly recent games (like in the last year up to the present).

Calculations: Not from what I know of.

Overclocking: Nope, since I don't really know how. I just want a computer that works.

Storage: Kind of undetermined at this point. I plan to at least dual boot between Windows XP and some kind of Linux. Probably Windows 7 as well, eventually. Also an iTunes library of 30GB+. Not very demanding, probably ~200GB will work for me. I probably want 2 drives, as well, as one for a backup (the second can be fairly small....~80GB)

Legacy Support: Nope.

Operating System: Dual boot between XP and Linux for sure, maybe also Windows 7.

Case: Already have one picked out, but suggestions are welcomed.

Accessories: Nah.

Recycled Components: If an external DVD drive doesn't work out, I have a few really old CD-ROM drives that I might be content to use. I have an CRT monitor, but I'd really like a flatscreen. I also have a ton of old IDE cables.

Monitor: Really depends on price....Not extremely picky....1280x1024 is fine for me.

Stores: TigerDirect is what I've browsed, just because it's cheap(ish), I've bought from them before, and it's easy to navigate.

Location: USA
--------------------------
I have a ton of questions because everything seems so freakin complicated to me. Pages for just one element like the Power Supply are HUGE and detailed. I have little to no knowledge of hardware, though I've been googling for hours trying to find good sites for explanations.

The main reason I want to build a computer is because I want to know how, that is, I want to know what the specs mean, what is compatible with what, why this is preferable to that, and so forth. Hopefully it's not too much of a hassle, but I would really appreciate some explanations in terms of what an item does, like a Motherboard, and why model ______ is the one that I should go with. I feel really bad about having so many questions, but I've spent hours trying to research, and every item is intertwined with others, and I'm hoping to find just one benevolent soul who can help a newb's many questions. (I'll put questions in blue...hopefully that will help...)

First question:
Should I go with a 32-bit or 64-bit system? I want to be able to use alot of programs I use right now on 32-bit, so I'm thinking a 32-bit is best, but is going with 32 just stupid?

CASE/POWER SUPPLY:
Apevia X-Qboii Computer Case - MicroATX, Clear Side, 500 Watt Power Supply, 2x 5.25 Bays, 4x 3.5 Bays, 4x Fan Ports, Black
PRICE - $70

MOTHERBOARD:
Depends on CPU, RAM, Hard drive, etc.....right?
PRICE - (Educated guess) $100

CPU:
If anything, I want this PC to have overkill on processing. I'm thinking 2.5Ghz-3Ghz. Need at least dual core, maybe triple. Depends on 32/64 bit. Here's one I found, but I really haven't a clue:
AMD Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition Triple Core Processor HDZ720WFGIBOX
PRICE - $130

RAM:
Should I go with DDR2 or DDR3? How can I determine what RAM (brands, etc) are faster/better?
I'm thinking around 2.5-3Gb. Overkill? Underkill?
PRICE (Educated Guess) - $50

HARD DRIVE:
Really know nothing about hard drives besides storage capacity. What are the advantages/disadvantages of SATA vs IDE? What's a modest read/write speed, and how is it measured?
PRICE - (Educated guess) $50

GRAPHICS CARD:
I really have no clue about, but I haven't done much research on it. I just want one that can play FPS computer games OK.
PRICE - (Educated guess) $100

SOUND CARD:
Do I even need a sound card? (Dumbest question ever.)

USB:
I know I want USB 2.0, and I know that the other hardware (motherboard?) has to support that. Other than that, all I can say is that I want ~6 ports (2 are already on the case, so 4 more.).
StarTech PCI625USB2I Value 6-Port USB 2.0 PCI Card
PRICE - $15

WIRELESS CARD:
Not "required", but really, it is. This doesn't necessarily count toward the total price, but I do need one just because it will be in my basement away from my router. Would very much prefer if it was N. Which is better: PCI or USB? What brands would you recommend? I only ask this because I've only had Linksys for my router and (old) notebook wireless, and it really kinda sucks.
PRICE (Educated guess) - $50

DVD-ROM:
I don't use a DVD/CD-ROM drive much, and I have an Asus EEE netbook which does not have a CD-ROM drive at all, so I'm thinking about getting an external (USB) drive, so it will work for both, even if it's worth twice as much. Any objections to buying/using an external DVD drive?
MSI UO881-B-14 External Slim Drive - DVD-ROM 8X, CD-ROM 24X, USB 2.0, Black
PRICE (since it serves two computers, I will half the price to add to the total) - $20

MONITOR:
What is the main advantage of DVI over RGB? Other than that, I really don't care. As long as it's not a CRT and has a resoltion of at least 1280x1024, I'm good. Really sucks though, cause that's a large part of my budget.
PRICE - (around) $120

IDE/SATA CONNECTORS:
I do believe I need these, and if anyone could just explain generally how they work, if there are good/bad types/brands/models, etc. I do have a ton of old IDE cables that a friend gave me....are they still good, or have they improved the technology?
PRICE (Educated guess) - $20

ANTI-STATIC WRISTBAND:
Um.....yeah. Doesn't need to be included in the total price.
Ultra Antistatic Wrist Strap
PRICE - $7

TOTAL PRICE: $675
OTHER: $57 (Wristband & Wireless)

As you can see, I'm already over budget. So I need to know, what can I cut? Or is what I'm asking more of the $600-$700 range? I would be willing to go to $600 (without extras like wireless), but $700 is a little steep...

Thanks for at least giving it a read through. If anyone helps, I will be so freakin happy. Even answering one question would really help me get pointed in the right direction.
-Jon

**wrench97** · 10-23-2009, 01:46 AM

For gaming I don't see any cuts you can make your under spec'd on the power supply Never go for a supply included with a case they're usually junk.

A full ATX casr would be better then a mAtx case for cooling.

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 01:59 AM

Let's start with this:
$650 gaming build
That's a solid build I've specced and we can use it as a starting point.

Newegg.com is a good place to shop.

I know you said you've already picked out a case, but if you really like the case I'd suggest at least getting a version without the power supply, as Apevia power supplies are, to put it bluntly, pure crap. The build in the thread above has a Corsair VX550W PSU, which is a little pricey, but definitely worth it for the stability it will give your system. Read this for more information: Power Supply Information and Selection

You really don't need a ton of processing power. For you I think the AMD version of the build I listed would be best, it has a 2.9GHz AMD Athlon II x3, which should meet your needs fine.

We'll use the motherboard and RAM (4GB DDR2 800) from that build as well, though we may end up cutting the RAM down to 2GB to save money.

You'll want SATA drives. IDE is old tech, 90% phased out. I use mostly Western Digital hard drives, they are quite reliable and have good warranties. I picked a 750GB WD Caviar Black drive for the build I specced, but you could save some coin and go with a 500GB WD Caviar Blue instead. Also, the motherboard comes with all the SATA/IDE cables you need.

The Radeon 4670 graphics card from the build will play most games on medium at up to a 1680x1050 resolution, so it should be a good choice for you.

No need for a sound card or a dedicated USB card, as virtually all modern motherboards have decent integrated sound and USB 2.0.

I know very little about wireless network cards.

I don't know a lot about external DVD drives, but if you go with internal we recommend LG or LiteOn, though most of the other brands are at least decent.

This monitor should meet your needs:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824176083

You don't need an anti-static wrist band. Pro tip: work on a hard surface like concrete or tile, don't wear rubber-soled shoes, and make sure to ground yourself to the case by simply touching it whenever you're handling components, and you will never need to worry about static.

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 02:23 AM

Thanks for the quick replies.

I am not a primary gamer, but I will probably game more on the side, so your suggestion rig is valid. I just kind of wanted to customize it myself rather than picking them from a list. I've used Newegg as well, and I'm comfortable with shopping from them too.

I understand about the case. I was hoping someone would say something about the power supply. Is 550W enough for my specs? But also, can I look for my own case, as long as it's ATX and doesn't have a power supply? I would really like to pick one myself.

For the processor, could you please explain why that is a good model? It's not that I don't trust your judgment, it's just that I want to understand what makes a good Processor. Also, is that for 32 or 64 bit? Or either? And which do you suggest?

Same goes for Board and RAM: please explain to me why the suggestions are good, so I can know for future builds/upgrades.

EDIT: Also, I found some 2GB RAM here and here that is exactly like what you suggested, only 2GB. There's very little differences between the two, could you explain which I should get and why?

Thanks for the SATA tip....I didn't know. I like Western Digital as well, as I find their external drives very reliable. I found a 320GB of the same model for ~$50, which sounds wonderful to me. Also, can you answer my speed question? And explain the graphics card?

Thanks for the tip on sound card AND usb card. I kind of guessed that a sound card was unnecessary, but I had no idea about USB. Good to know!

That's alright, I'll research wireless cards later. I can get it after the rest of the PC, as long as I'm sure it will be compatible.

I did see a DVD drive by LiteOn with the exact same specs as the one I listed (same price as well), and I just picked one of them to link to. If you suggest LiteOn, though, I'll go with that one. I would like to go with LG, but from what I can tell, they run about twice as expensive.

Haha, the monitor you suggested is almost exactly like the one I'm using right now! It's for the family though. I'm not really sure if I want to get another HP....the speakers are pretty god-awful, but otherwise, it's a good monitor. If I got one without speakers (which I don't know if they do), could I cut the price a little?

And as for the anti-static band, I just figured it would be better to be safe than sorry. I think I might buy one anyway, just because I don't trust myself, and it's < $10.

Sorry if I sound a bit inquisitive. I really do appreciate the response.
-Jon

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 02:40 AM

Sure, look for any case you want. As for the power supply, there are far more important considerations than just the wattage. Amperage on the +12V rail, voltage stability, protections, efficiency, quality of the internal parts... I wouldn't use any Apevia PSU, pretty much ever. Corsair is one of the better manufacturers out there, and they have excellent prices for the quality. The VX550W should be great for you.

The CPU... Well, just about every CPU on the market right now is "good." You just have to pick one to meet your needs and budget. From what you've described you're doing, a two or three core CPU in the ~$100 range sounded about right (I have an intuition), and this particular one is one of the best for the money that meets those requirements. Also, almost every CPU you can find nowadays supports both 32 and 64 bit, anything later than the Pentium 4.

I chose the motherboard for three reasons: Gigabyte is a good brand; it supported the CPU I chose; and it's fairly cheap. Any motherboard from Asus or Gigabyte should be decent. As for how I chose it, figuring out compatibility is the hard part. I needed a board with support for new AM3 CPUs, but was relatively inexpensive. I also chose one that uses DDR2 RAM because DDR3 is still new and they're working out various glitches in the chipsets that support it, and there have been faulty chips released to market. I chose that particular RAM kit because it was two 2GB modules of DDR2 with a decent clock speed (800MHz), from a reputable brand (G.Skill) for a reasonable price.

SATA is rather faster than IDE, I don't recall the numbers off the top of my head... But really, hard drive speed isn't extremely important, especially in a budget build like this.

The Radeon 4670 graphics card is the best bang for the buck in the price range you'll be looking at, will play modern games on medium settings, and can run comfortably on a decent ~500-600W PSU.

Yeah, HP's monitor speakers are kinda bad, but the screen itself is pretty good for the price. I'm using an HP w1707 17" right now as my secondary monitor, and I don't have any complaints. If you want better speakers, you can get an ok 2.0 or 2.1 set for ~$20-50, or you can pick up some cheapos for about $10.

Frankly, I can tell you right now that you're not going to get everything you want for $500. We might be able to squeeze it in under $600... If we go with 2GB RAM instead of 4GB (and maybe go 667MHz instead of 800MHz? We shall see), maybe go with a slightly cheaper CPU (there's an Athlon II x2 that was released recently, it's a bit cheaper than the x3) maybe a Radeon 4650 instead of the 4670... I dunno. I think you'll either have to go a bit over your over-budget estimate, or else start making some decisions on what hardware to cut down to fit it into budget.

I'll sketch out a parts list for you tomorrow (or, er, later today), I'm going to head to bed for now.

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 03:04 AM

I'll start checking out other cases. :) So when considering a power supply, the most important thing is the brand? Good to know. Is there anything else besides voltage that I should be aware of, other than knowing a good brand?

Well, when I said "good," I meant "good for me in this situation." Two to three core CPU sounds about right to me, since I KNOW I won't need quad, but one is too few. It's good to know about the 32/64 bit stuff. I was searching around, and alot of the stuff I read was before Pentium 4, so it's hard to tell what is accurate to date.

Sorry for asking again, but I guess I'm just confused, do the specs on the CPU matter much? Like I know that 2.9GHz is definitely better than the 1.3GHz in my netbook, but what about FSB? L2 Cache? Voltage? Am I just overthinking everything?

The motherboard seems like it's the hardest part. I guess it's just dependent on the other parts, price, and the brand, like you said. Only one question on that: does the FSB speed matter?

Thanks for clarifying RAM! I understand that now!

The only concern I have with hard drive speed is because my netbook's HD speed is very slow compared to the machine I'm on (which isn't impressive to begin with). It's like half as fast, if I can tell. But it is SSD. So 7200RPM is a good number to stick around? Got it.

I've had Radeon before, so I'll just trust that that's a good one.

I'm definitely seeing that $500 is out the window. Hopefully $600 can work. I do think I'll go with the 2GB RAM (I posted links in my last post). The current tally I have, from what you suggested, is $580 for 2GB RAM, $610 for 4GB of RAM. :)

Thanks for all the help. I never thought I'd make this much progress the first night of the response.
-Jon

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 01:00 PM

Case:
? Estimate $50

Motherboard:
Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H AMD 785G
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128394
$79.99

CPU:
AMD Athlon II x3 435 AM3 2.9GHz
http://www.provantage.com/amd-adx435...x~7AAMD2AU.htm
$96.00

Memory:
Patriot 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 800 CL5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820220174
$41.99

Graphics card:
Sapphire Radeon HD 4670 512MB GDDR3
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102854
$66.99

Power supply:
Corsair VX550W
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139004
$79.99

Hard drive:
Western Digital Caviar Blue 320GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136098
$47.99

Optical drive:
? Possible:
Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD burner
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106289
$28.99
? ~$30

Total hardware cost: ~$495

Monitor:
Options
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009151
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824176083
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824254023

So that's ~$500 for the tower and ~$120-30 for the monitor. Unfortunately, Windows licenses are expensive, XP is $90, Vista and 7 are ~$100-120. However, if you already have a copy of XP you should be able to install it on the new machine (you might need to find an OEM disk; computer stores can usually burn one for you), then enter in the product key and it should work fine. Linux, of course, is free and will work fine if you can't get Windows right away.

If you don't count the cost of an operating system then we could definitely trim this down to ~$550 including monitor if you want to. This would be at the cost of performance, however, because the only real places to cut are the CPU (could go with an Athlon II x2) and the graphics card (could go with Radeon 4650, which would only get low settings in newer games at a 1440x900 res).

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 01:25 PM

I don't mean to sound annoying, but it seems like you're avoiding some of my questions. While I really appreciate the great products and brands suggested, I would really like to learn why I should choose them so I can know for future builds.

Here's a few questions I still have:
1. Does hardware effect whether or not I can run a 32bit or 64bit system?
2. [Power] Is there anything else besides voltage that I should be aware of, other than knowing a good brand?
3. [CPU] Should I know about FSB? L2 Cache? Voltage?
4. [Motherboard] Does FSB speed matter?
5. How can you tell if a Board and CPU are compatible? Sockets?
6. Why did you swap memory brands for going to 2GB? What about the two links I suggested a few posts up?

I have alot of stuff decided, and it's down to four things that I'm just not quite sure on.

Case:
GIGABYTE GZ-X2BPD-500 Black 0.6mm SECC Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811233033
$37.99

Memory:
Patriot 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 800 CL5
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820220174
$41.99

Optical drive:
NU USB 2.0 External Slim DVD Multi Burner USB-Powered Model ESW860
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827154040
$25.00 (towards total)

Hard drive:
Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136320
$59.99

Monitor:
LG W1943TB-PF Black 18.5" 5ms(GTG) 16:9 Widescreen LCD Monitor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824005121
$129.99

Motherboard:
CPU:
Power supply:
Graphics card:
I'm unsure. I would really like to learn a little more about them. If you could answer the questions above, that would be great.

SUBTOTAL: $294.96 + Board + Graphics + PSU

Don't worry about a Windows license. I have a few XP licenses laying around, and I have an OEM disk as well. Let's keep the total around $600.

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 01:46 PM

Not avoiding your questions; there's just a lot of other stuff to do, and I wanted to know your opinion on the setup I put together there.

Quote:

1. Does hardware effect whether or not I can run a 32bit or 64bit system?

In order to use a 64 bit system the hardware (specifically the CPU) has to support it, yes; but all modern CPUs support 64 bit.

Quote:

2. [Power] Is there anything else besides voltage that I should be aware of, other than knowing a good brand?

There's a lot to this question. In general, you should look for these things:
1.) Efficiency should be 80% or higher; less than that indicates poor quality.
2.) The current on the +12V rail is very important. Take the current rating for the +12V rail (if it has multiple +12V rails, use the total available to be shared by them, don't just add up the ratings; this information isn't always available, however), multiply by 12 for the power available on that rail (power = current * voltage). Then divide that number by the total wattage rating to find what percentage of the power is available on the +12V rail. If it's less than 80% then avoid it, or treat it like a lower wattage PSU. You're looking for the +12V rail to be 80-95% of the power rating.
3.) BRAND. This is sort of a catch-all, because there are so many other factors to take into consideration, and finding them out on a unit-by-unit basis is almost impossible. So we recommend brands and lines of products that we know are up to spec on the other considerations (quality of internal parts, good protections, tested at 40-50C for actual power rating, voltage stability, not lying outright, etc.).
Brands we recommend:
Corsair (all models)
SeaSonic (all models)
PC Power and Cooling (all models)
Thermaltake (Toughpower series only)
CoolerMaster (Real Power Pro series only)

Not officially recommended:
CWT (all models)
FSP (less than 400W only)
OCZ (specific models, ask before buying)
Silverstone (ditto)

Quote:

3. [CPU] Should I know about FSB? L2 Cache? Voltage?

That gets very complicated. The FSB is the speed at which the motherboard bus between the CPU/RAM/northbridge runs. Divide FSB by 4 to give physical bus speed. The CPU has a multiplier (typically between 6 and 12), so if the CPU has a multiplier of x9, then for every bus cycle the CPU has nine cycles. CPU clock speed = bus speed * multiplier. But it also means that the CPU can only receive data from the bus every nine clock cycles. This means that the CPU might end up wasting clock cycles waiting for it and the bus to be in synch again so it can get the next set of instructions. Basically what is boils down to is that if you have two CPUs with the same clock speed, but one has a high multiplier and a low FSB, and the other has a low multiplier and a high FSB, the one with the higher FSB will get more done because it's handling more data overall.

L2 cache... more explanation involved there, and it's kind of complicated. But like the FSB, the more of it the more will get done per clock cycle.

No need to consider voltage, the motherboard will determine what is appropriate.

Quote:

4. [Motherboard] Does FSB speed matter?

As long as the mobo's rated FSB is equal to or higher than the CPU's.

Quote:

5. How can you tell if a Board and CPU are compatible? Sockets?

Yes, the socket has to match, BUT you also have to do some digging to make sure that the BIOS supports the CPU in question. You have to go to the mobo manufacturer's website to find the board's CPU support list.

Quote:

6. Why did you swap memory brands for going to 2GB? What about the two links I suggested a few posts up?

I was going for the cheapest memory from a decent brand, which turned out to be Patriot. Good brands include: Corsair, G.Skill, OCZ, Crucial, Patriot.

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 02:41 PM

Example of PSU current on +12V rail.

Compare the Corsair CX400W power supply and the CoolerMaster eXtreme Power 400W. Both have the same power rating; but I would treat the CoolerMaster like it was a 300W unit. Why?

The Corsair's +12V rail can deliver up to 30A of current, which is excellent for a 400W unit. Power = current * voltage, so 30 * 12 = 360. This PSU can deliver 360W on its +12V rail. 360/400 = .9, so 90% of this power supply's power is on the +12V rail, which is excellent.

The CoolerMaster has 19A on its +12V rail. Using the same formula, 19 * 12 = 228W on the +12V rail. 228/400 = .57, so this PSU can only deliver 57% of its power on the +12V rail.

Modern computers pull 80% or more of their power from the +12V rail. The CPU, graphics card, and a good deal of the motherboard are powered by +12V current, and it also contributes to the hard drives, optical drives, some fans, many PCI cards... In the past (Pentium 3 era) computers got most of their power from the +5V rail. Today, though, the +5V rail mainly powers just the hard drive motors, certain motherboard functions, and some fans. Even a system with a six hard drives and a dozen 5V fans won't pull more than 80-100W from the +5V rail, and on a typical system the draw will be more like 20-40W.

Shoddy manufacturers like to make units with way-overspecced +5V and +3.3V rails and skimp on the +12V, because it's easier to engineer and cheaper to build that way. So a 400W PSU may not actually be able to power a system that needs a 400W PSU, because half of its power may be on rails not being used at more than 10%. Another trick used is to count the -12V, -5V, and +5VSB as part of the overall power rating, which makes the power rating an absolute fabrication, since those rails are used only for very specific specialty roles, and don't really contribute to the PSU's output as a whole. Current on the +12V rail, therefore, is a more important consideration than overall wattage in many cases.

The advent of multiple +12V rail designs makes this a lot more complicated, though. A multiple-rail PSU has two or more (I've seen up to six) rails delivering power at +12V. This design is chosen because the ATX 2.something specification "recommended" that any power rail be limited to a maximum of 240VA (volt*amps), which means the +12V rail shouldn't be more than 20A. Honestly, I don't know why they recommend this, as it is a bad thing on many levels.

First off, with a single rail PSU it is easy to figure out how much current is available at +12V; it's right in the specs. However, with multiple +12V rails you can't tell, because each rail is rated at up to however many amps (usually 18A or 20A). However, both rails can't deliver this power at once, because the maximum power available is determined by what the transformer can deliver. You might have two +12V rails capable of delivering up to 20A each; but you only have 30A to share between them.

For instance, there was a PSU I saw earlier this week (don't remember the model). It was a 500W unit, and it had four +12V rails, each rated at 20A. Now, if each rail could deliver its power at once it would have been a 1200W power supply (12 * 80 = 960 = 80% of 1200W, assuming the +5V and +3.3V could make up the rest of the power). Since it obviously wasn't a 1200W PSU, it demonstrates my point. There were probably only 25-35A available to share between these four 20A rails. And since the information of how much +12V current is available is usually withheld, determining the actual power rating of a multi-rail PSU can be extremely difficult.

Also, if one of those rails draws more than 20A, the PSU will shut down. You have to balance your power usage. But because many manufacturers don't tell you what components draw from which rail it can be very difficult to do so. The manufacturer may also have made poor choices on distribution of what components draw from which rail. Saw a review of another 500W unit that had one rail at 20A and another at 18A. Problem was that the 20A rail powered the 4-pin motherboard connector, 24-pin motherboard connector, and one PCIe 6-pin connector. The 18A rail powered the drives and the other PCIe connector. This means that nearly all of the major power users in the computer were attached to one +12V rail, while the other one would have barely any load on it at all. This means it would be very easy to draw too much power from the 20A +12V rail, which would cause the whole PC to shut down.

So it's a very complicated deal, power supplies. I haven't even touched on voltage stability or power derating, and to be honest I have better things to do atm. I hope you find the information useful, and I'll be on again later to help more.

**Tyree** · 10-23-2009, 02:43 PM

Prebuilt external optical drives are not a good choice and are more expensive than an internal.

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 03:22 PM

Wow. Thanks so much. That answers all of my questions.

1. Thanks, that clears it up.
2. Right on. With all of what you said, I can see why the supply you suggested is good, and I'll be happy to go with it.
3. Wow...that's complicated. I think I'll look into that more.
4. Duly noted.
5. Definitely good to know.
6. Alrighty then. Sounds good to me.

I liked your list, but I did sub in some stuff of my own. Like the case is only $37, just because I like it more than some $50 cases, so that brings down the budget. I subbed a 500GB black for your 320GB blue for +$10, and I found a really sweet external DVD burner, cause I don't think the one you linked to is external. Lastly, I looked around and found an LG monitor for the same price as the ones you suggested, except it looks a bit nicer. It's 19", has a slightly smaller resolution than the one's you were suggesting, has DVI, and has no speakers (which is nice, since I won't be using them anyway).

So my new tally is

Case $38
RAM $45
Power $80
HD $60
DVD $20
Monitor $120
*Motherboard $80
*CPU $100
*Graphics $67

Total: $343 without *s, $590 with.
I'm not sure about the ones with *s, and since I'm actually slightly under-budget, I might consider upgrading at least one of them. I'm going to think on it today.

Thanks again for all your help.
-Jon

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 03:32 PM

Simplified explanation of FSB's impact on performance. Remember, FSB is bus speed times 4, and bus speed is what we use in the calculations.

You have two CPUs with the same clock speed, say 2.0GHz, only one has a bus speed of 200Mhz and a multiplier of 10, while the other has a bus speed of 400MHz and a multiplier of 5.

Both of these CPUs will be able to manipulate data 2000 million times per second. However, the 200x10 CPU will only be able to access the bus (and thus the RAM and other components) 200 million times per second, while the 400x5 CPU will be able to access the bus 400 million times per second. Thus, while they are both the same clock speed and do the same amount of operations in a given time, the one with the higher FSB can access the memory and other devices more often to give and receive data.

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyree

Prebuilt external optical drives are not a good choice and are more expensive than an internal.

I was wondering if someone would say that. I realize that, but I do want it to serve the dual purpose of being able to use it for this build and my netbook. Plus, I really only use a CD/DVD drive for either viewing movies or ripping music into my collection, so I figure that it should be sufficient for my needs. The only reason I get an external is so that I can use it with my netbook as well.

You said "prebuilt"...is there an alternative?

Phædrus2401, I didn't refresh, and thus didn't see your last post on power supplies. Thanks so much, it's very informative. I did try to do the calculation, and saw that the one you suggested is really efficient, so I'm definitely convinced about that one. Even if it's a tad expensive, it's worth it.

I am beginning to understand your explanation of CPUs more and more, and the question is, I look around and see a CPU with around the same clock speed and a higher FSB for about $20 more. Should I just go with that? I guess I'm paranoid, because a 1.3/1.6GHz in my netbook has left me paranoid of being without enough processing power.

Also, I mentioned it to a friend, and he recommended Nvidia over ATI since I'm going to go with an Ubuntu-based Linux OS. Would you agree, since I see you run Ubuntu as well? I've only ever had ATI, so I don'y know anything about Nvidia.

I'm leaving to work, so I'll think about this stuff while I'm gone, and hopefully come up with a conclusion by tonight.

Last thing: since no one (especially Phædrus) has voiced objections to any of the subs I've made, I'm going to assume their ok. But if someone sees something wrong (especially Phædrus), do let me know.
-Jon

Phædrus2401 · 10-23-2009, 04:14 PM

I've never had trouble using ATI with linux, except in one case. Fedora 10 linux had a glitch where the default graphics driver would not work with Radeon 4800 series cards, and thus you couldn't see to install the dedicated drivers, and all you saw was a blank white screen. They fixed this in Fedora 11, and I'm running Ubuntu 9.04 on this build with a Radeon 4870, and it works fine. Also, though Nvidia cards are very good, right now ATI is definitely winning the price/performance battle by a large margin. Nvidia's competitor to the 4670, the 9600GT, costs about $90-100 on average, while the 4670 costs ~$60-70. So unless a user specifically requests Nvidia, or has an Nvidia motherboard, I usually suggest ATI. Though if Nvidia's prices come down it'll be the other way around, or a tossup at least.

As for the CPU... That gets into complicated territory again.

In my opinion and from my research, the Athlon II x3 435 is the best bang-for-the-buck in your price range. It has a decent FSB rating, it has a higher clock speed than most quad cores and so will do better running single- and dual-threaded applications than a quad would, but since it has the third core it will also do fairly well with multi-threaded apps. The other bang-for-buck option in your price range would be to go with the Intel version of that setup, which has a Pentium Dual Core E6500 2.93GHz. The E6500 does better in some applications that are still single- and dual-threaded, but since more and more programs are taking advantage of CPU cores past the first two, the AMD would probably be a better investment at the moment. Either should have plenty of power, but the AMD tri-core might have a longer useful lifespan.

The Caviar Black drives are very good, and I didn't notice the Black 500GB was only $10 more than the Blue 320GB. Whups.

I'll defer to Tyree's judgment on the DVD drive.

Glad we've been a help.

**Tyree** · 10-23-2009, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notbryant

You said "prebuilt"...is there an alternative?

A better alternative is to purchase the optical drive and enclosure separately but your looking at $50 for a quality external case and about $30 or the optical drive.

notbryant · 10-23-2009, 10:39 PM

@Phædrus
As I've thought about it, I guess I'll lean toward ATI. I mean, like I said, every computer I've had that I can remember has ATI, and I've never had a problem with any of them, and if my Linux distro (Crunchbang) doesn't have a problem with it, then neither do I. As long as you believe that it can play a game like Left4Dead 2 with no problems, then I'm game. (Ha, pun).

Your AMD vs. Intel discussion has won me over.

I'll go with AMD.

@Tyree
Yeah, I did see "Encasements" (or whatever) while I was browsing. My question is, for just playing DVDs and ripping music, is a prebuilt external good enough (even if it's less bang for the buck)? Because I'd end out spending more if I made my own, and if it's overkill for just ripping music and playing movies, then that's money I could be putting toward something else.

EDIT: Also, wouldn't that require an external power source, like a wall plug?

I just realized the other day that if I did end out choosing 64bit, 2GB of RAM would be a bit low. If the budget allows, I think I'll go for 4GB.

I do have a few more questions I've come up with, but I swear we are almost there!
1. Other than looking for matching compatibility and high enough FSB, what else is there to look for in a motherboard? (Besides USB ports, etc).
2. One of the nice things about EEE PCs is that they have two hard drives in them: one for the OS, one for documents and programs. I would kind of like to have a similar setup, even if I were to buy it later. What would you recommend for a smallerish HD, < or = 128GB, even if I were to buy it at a later time?
3. I found this in my basement : Turtle Beach Santa Cruz 5.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card; Would it be worth it to install that on my build, or is the sound card on my motherboard just as good/better?
4. Why isn't the processor you suggested on Newegg? Just kind of inconvenient...Of course, the Power Supply isn't either, so I guess I'll get that off TigerDirect. Just seems a little odd that they'd have my 10 year old soundcard, but not that CPU.

So close! I'll try to finalize my list tomorrow (after I see your replies to this post), then I'll post my final results, and buy.

Thanks again. You guys have been so much help.

-Jon

**Tyree** · 10-24-2009, 08:02 AM

Prebuilt external optical drives generally use low quality housing with cheap circuitry and slim drives are generally not reliable or long lived. Using quality components is never overkill.
Personally, I would give the Onboard sound a try before using a sound card. The new Onboard sound is quite impressive and very possibly better than your old card.
What PSU are you referring to that Newegg doesn't show?

**wrench97** · 10-24-2009, 08:53 AM

And if you chose to use the card make sure there are Win 7 drivers available and it may not support 64bit if that the version you chose.

**Tyree** · 10-24-2009, 09:39 AM

Very good point wrench97!

10-23-2009, 01:21 AM	#1 (permalink)
notbryant Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14 OS: Windows XP SP3	First time build ($500), need major advice. Budget: I'm hoping around $500, but I can flex a little either way (more/less expensive). If it sounds like I'm going for overkill, I'll gladly step it down. Brands: To be honest, I don't really know almost anything about hardware, so I don't care. Multitasking: Yes, I do multitask alot. Gaming: I do plan to do more gaming, once I finally get a computer with specs that can handle it. Probably fairly recent games (like in the last year up to the present). Calculations: Not from what I know of. Overclocking: Nope, since I don't really know how. I just want a computer that works. Storage: Kind of undetermined at this point. I plan to at least dual boot between Windows XP and some kind of Linux. Probably Windows 7 as well, eventually. Also an iTunes library of 30GB+. Not very demanding, probably ~200GB will work for me. I probably want 2 drives, as well, as one for a backup (the second can be fairly small....~80GB) Legacy Support: Nope. Operating System: Dual boot between XP and Linux for sure, maybe also Windows 7. Case: Already have one picked out, but suggestions are welcomed. Accessories: Nah. Recycled Components: If an external DVD drive doesn't work out, I have a few really old CD-ROM drives that I might be content to use. I have an CRT monitor, but I'd really like a flatscreen. I also have a ton of old IDE cables. Monitor: Really depends on price....Not extremely picky....1280x1024 is fine for me. Stores: TigerDirect is what I've browsed, just because it's cheap(ish), I've bought from them before, and it's easy to navigate. Location: USA -------------------------- I have a ton of questions because everything seems so freakin complicated to me. Pages for just one element like the Power Supply are HUGE and detailed. I have little to no knowledge of hardware, though I've been googling for hours trying to find good sites for explanations. The main reason I want to build a computer is because I want to know how, that is, I want to know what the specs mean, what is compatible with what, why this is preferable to that, and so forth. Hopefully it's not too much of a hassle, but I would really appreciate some explanations in terms of what an item does, like a Motherboard, and why model ______ is the one that I should go with. I feel really bad about having so many questions, but I've spent hours trying to research, and every item is intertwined with others, and I'm hoping to find just one benevolent soul who can help a newb's many questions. (I'll put questions in blue...hopefully that will help...) First question: Should I go with a 32-bit or 64-bit system? I want to be able to use alot of programs I use right now on 32-bit, so I'm thinking a 32-bit is best, but is going with 32 just stupid? CASE/POWER SUPPLY: Apevia X-Qboii Computer Case - MicroATX, Clear Side, 500 Watt Power Supply, 2x 5.25 Bays, 4x 3.5 Bays, 4x Fan Ports, Black PRICE - $70 MOTHERBOARD: Depends on CPU, RAM, Hard drive, etc.....right? PRICE - (Educated guess) $100 CPU: If anything, I want this PC to have overkill on processing. I'm thinking 2.5Ghz-3Ghz. Need at least dual core, maybe triple. Depends on 32/64 bit. Here's one I found, but I really haven't a clue: AMD Phenom II X3 720 Black Edition Triple Core Processor HDZ720WFGIBOX PRICE - $130 RAM: Should I go with DDR2 or DDR3? How can I determine what RAM (brands, etc) are faster/better? I'm thinking around 2.5-3Gb. Overkill? Underkill? PRICE (Educated Guess) - $50 HARD DRIVE: Really know nothing about hard drives besides storage capacity. What are the advantages/disadvantages of SATA vs IDE? What's a modest read/write speed, and how is it measured? PRICE - (Educated guess) $50 GRAPHICS CARD: I really have no clue about, but I haven't done much research on it. I just want one that can play FPS computer games OK. PRICE - (Educated guess) $100 SOUND CARD: Do I even need a sound card? (Dumbest question ever.) USB: I know I want USB 2.0, and I know that the other hardware (motherboard?) has to support that. Other than that, all I can say is that I want ~6 ports (2 are already on the case, so 4 more.). StarTech PCI625USB2I Value 6-Port USB 2.0 PCI Card PRICE - $15 WIRELESS CARD: Not "required", but really, it is. This doesn't necessarily count toward the total price, but I do need one just because it will be in my basement away from my router. Would very much prefer if it was N. Which is better: PCI or USB? What brands would you recommend? I only ask this because I've only had Linksys for my router and (old) notebook wireless, and it really kinda sucks. PRICE (Educated guess) - $50 DVD-ROM: I don't use a DVD/CD-ROM drive much, and I have an Asus EEE netbook which does not have a CD-ROM drive at all, so I'm thinking about getting an external (USB) drive, so it will work for both, even if it's worth twice as much. Any objections to buying/using an external DVD drive? MSI UO881-B-14 External Slim Drive - DVD-ROM 8X, CD-ROM 24X, USB 2.0, Black PRICE (since it serves two computers, I will half the price to add to the total) - $20 MONITOR: What is the main advantage of DVI over RGB? Other than that, I really don't care. As long as it's not a CRT and has a resoltion of at least 1280x1024, I'm good. Really sucks though, cause that's a large part of my budget. PRICE - (around) $120 IDE/SATA CONNECTORS: I do believe I need these, and if anyone could just explain generally how they work, if there are good/bad types/brands/models, etc. I do have a ton of old IDE cables that a friend gave me....are they still good, or have they improved the technology? PRICE (Educated guess) - $20 ANTI-STATIC WRISTBAND: Um.....yeah. Doesn't need to be included in the total price. Ultra Antistatic Wrist Strap PRICE - $7 TOTAL PRICE: $675 OTHER: $57 (Wristband & Wireless) As you can see, I'm already over budget. So I need to know, what can I cut? Or is what I'm asking more of the $600-$700 range? I would be willing to go to $600 (without extras like wireless), but $700 is a little steep... Thanks for at least giving it a read through. If anyone helps, I will be so freakin happy. Even answering one question would really help me get pointed in the right direction. -Jon

10-23-2009, 01:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,463 OS: Win7	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. For gaming I don't see any cuts you can make your under spec'd on the power supply Never go for a supply included with a case they're usually junk. A full ATX casr would be better then a mAtx case for cooling. __________________ Power Supply and Selection

10-23-2009, 01:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,755 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Let's start with this: $650 gaming build That's a solid build I've specced and we can use it as a starting point. Newegg.com is a good place to shop. I know you said you've already picked out a case, but if you really like the case I'd suggest at least getting a version without the power supply, as Apevia power supplies are, to put it bluntly, pure crap. The build in the thread above has a Corsair VX550W PSU, which is a little pricey, but definitely worth it for the stability it will give your system. Read this for more information: Power Supply Information and Selection You really don't need a ton of processing power. For you I think the AMD version of the build I listed would be best, it has a 2.9GHz AMD Athlon II x3, which should meet your needs fine. We'll use the motherboard and RAM (4GB DDR2 800) from that build as well, though we may end up cutting the RAM down to 2GB to save money. You'll want SATA drives. IDE is old tech, 90% phased out. I use mostly Western Digital hard drives, they are quite reliable and have good warranties. I picked a 750GB WD Caviar Black drive for the build I specced, but you could save some coin and go with a 500GB WD Caviar Blue instead. Also, the motherboard comes with all the SATA/IDE cables you need. The Radeon 4670 graphics card from the build will play most games on medium at up to a 1680x1050 resolution, so it should be a good choice for you. No need for a sound card or a dedicated USB card, as virtually all modern motherboards have decent integrated sound and USB 2.0. I know very little about wireless network cards. I don't know a lot about external DVD drives, but if you go with internal we recommend LG or LiteOn, though most of the other brands are at least decent. This monitor should meet your needs: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824176083 You don't need an anti-static wrist band. Pro tip: work on a hard surface like concrete or tile, don't wear rubber-soled shoes, and make sure to ground yourself to the case by simply touching it whenever you're handling components, and you will never need to worry about static. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for. Last edited by Phædrus2401; 10-23-2009 at 02:01 AM.

10-23-2009, 02:23 AM	#4 (permalink)
notbryant Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14 OS: Windows XP SP3	Thanks for the advice/suggestions Thanks for the quick replies. I am not a primary gamer, but I will probably game more on the side, so your suggestion rig is valid. I just kind of wanted to customize it myself rather than picking them from a list. I've used Newegg as well, and I'm comfortable with shopping from them too. I understand about the case. I was hoping someone would say something about the power supply. Is 550W enough for my specs? But also, can I look for my own case, as long as it's ATX and doesn't have a power supply? I would really like to pick one myself. For the processor, could you please explain why that is a good model? It's not that I don't trust your judgment, it's just that I want to understand what makes a good Processor. Also, is that for 32 or 64 bit? Or either? And which do you suggest? Same goes for Board and RAM: please explain to me why the suggestions are good, so I can know for future builds/upgrades. EDIT: Also, I found some 2GB RAM here and here that is exactly like what you suggested, only 2GB. There's very little differences between the two, could you explain which I should get and why? Thanks for the SATA tip....I didn't know. I like Western Digital as well, as I find their external drives very reliable. I found a 320GB of the same model for ~$50, which sounds wonderful to me. Also, can you answer my speed question? And explain the graphics card? Thanks for the tip on sound card AND usb card. I kind of guessed that a sound card was unnecessary, but I had no idea about USB. Good to know! That's alright, I'll research wireless cards later. I can get it after the rest of the PC, as long as I'm sure it will be compatible. I did see a DVD drive by LiteOn with the exact same specs as the one I listed (same price as well), and I just picked one of them to link to. If you suggest LiteOn, though, I'll go with that one. I would like to go with LG, but from what I can tell, they run about twice as expensive. Haha, the monitor you suggested is almost exactly like the one I'm using right now! It's for the family though. I'm not really sure if I want to get another HP....the speakers are pretty god-awful, but otherwise, it's a good monitor. If I got one without speakers (which I don't know if they do), could I cut the price a little? And as for the anti-static band, I just figured it would be better to be safe than sorry. I think I might buy one anyway, just because I don't trust myself, and it's < $10. Sorry if I sound a bit inquisitive. I really do appreciate the response. -Jon Last edited by notbryant; 10-23-2009 at 02:33 AM.

10-23-2009, 02:40 AM	#5 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,755 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Sure, look for any case you want. As for the power supply, there are far more important considerations than just the wattage. Amperage on the +12V rail, voltage stability, protections, efficiency, quality of the internal parts... I wouldn't use any Apevia PSU, pretty much ever. Corsair is one of the better manufacturers out there, and they have excellent prices for the quality. The VX550W should be great for you. The CPU... Well, just about every CPU on the market right now is "good." You just have to pick one to meet your needs and budget. From what you've described you're doing, a two or three core CPU in the ~$100 range sounded about right (I have an intuition), and this particular one is one of the best for the money that meets those requirements. Also, almost every CPU you can find nowadays supports both 32 and 64 bit, anything later than the Pentium 4. I chose the motherboard for three reasons: Gigabyte is a good brand; it supported the CPU I chose; and it's fairly cheap. Any motherboard from Asus or Gigabyte should be decent. As for how I chose it, figuring out compatibility is the hard part. I needed a board with support for new AM3 CPUs, but was relatively inexpensive. I also chose one that uses DDR2 RAM because DDR3 is still new and they're working out various glitches in the chipsets that support it, and there have been faulty chips released to market. I chose that particular RAM kit because it was two 2GB modules of DDR2 with a decent clock speed (800MHz), from a reputable brand (G.Skill) for a reasonable price. SATA is rather faster than IDE, I don't recall the numbers off the top of my head... But really, hard drive speed isn't extremely important, especially in a budget build like this. The Radeon 4670 graphics card is the best bang for the buck in the price range you'll be looking at, will play modern games on medium settings, and can run comfortably on a decent ~500-600W PSU. Yeah, HP's monitor speakers are kinda bad, but the screen itself is pretty good for the price. I'm using an HP w1707 17" right now as my secondary monitor, and I don't have any complaints. If you want better speakers, you can get an ok 2.0 or 2.1 set for ~$20-50, or you can pick up some cheapos for about $10. Frankly, I can tell you right now that you're not going to get everything you want for $500. We might be able to squeeze it in under $600... If we go with 2GB RAM instead of 4GB (and maybe go 667MHz instead of 800MHz? We shall see), maybe go with a slightly cheaper CPU (there's an Athlon II x2 that was released recently, it's a bit cheaper than the x3) maybe a Radeon 4650 instead of the 4670... I dunno. I think you'll either have to go a bit over your over-budget estimate, or else start making some decisions on what hardware to cut down to fit it into budget. I'll sketch out a parts list for you tomorrow (or, er, later today), I'm going to head to bed for now. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for. Last edited by Phædrus2401; 10-23-2009 at 02:43 AM.

10-23-2009, 03:04 AM	#6 (permalink)
notbryant Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14 OS: Windows XP SP3	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. I'll start checking out other cases. :) So when considering a power supply, the most important thing is the brand? Good to know. Is there anything else besides voltage that I should be aware of, other than knowing a good brand? Well, when I said "good," I meant "good for me in this situation." Two to three core CPU sounds about right to me, since I KNOW I won't need quad, but one is too few. It's good to know about the 32/64 bit stuff. I was searching around, and alot of the stuff I read was before Pentium 4, so it's hard to tell what is accurate to date. Sorry for asking again, but I guess I'm just confused, do the specs on the CPU matter much? Like I know that 2.9GHz is definitely better than the 1.3GHz in my netbook, but what about FSB? L2 Cache? Voltage? Am I just overthinking everything? The motherboard seems like it's the hardest part. I guess it's just dependent on the other parts, price, and the brand, like you said. Only one question on that: does the FSB speed matter? Thanks for clarifying RAM! I understand that now! The only concern I have with hard drive speed is because my netbook's HD speed is very slow compared to the machine I'm on (which isn't impressive to begin with). It's like half as fast, if I can tell. But it is SSD. So 7200RPM is a good number to stick around? Got it. I've had Radeon before, so I'll just trust that that's a good one. I'm definitely seeing that $500 is out the window. Hopefully $600 can work. I do think I'll go with the 2GB RAM (I posted links in my last post). The current tally I have, from what you suggested, is $580 for 2GB RAM, $610 for 4GB of RAM. :) Thanks for all the help. I never thought I'd make this much progress the first night of the response. -Jon

10-23-2009, 01:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,755 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Case: ? Estimate $50 Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-MA785GM-US2H AMD 785G http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128394 $79.99 CPU: AMD Athlon II x3 435 AM3 2.9GHz http://www.provantage.com/amd-adx435...x~7AAMD2AU.htm $96.00 Memory: Patriot 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 800 CL5 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820220174 $41.99 Graphics card: Sapphire Radeon HD 4670 512MB GDDR3 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102854 $66.99 Power supply: Corsair VX550W http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139004 $79.99 Hard drive: Western Digital Caviar Blue 320GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136098 $47.99 Optical drive: ? Possible: Lite-On iHAS124-04 DVD burner http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106289 $28.99 ? ~$30 Total hardware cost: ~$495 Monitor: Options http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824009151 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824176083 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824254023 So that's ~$500 for the tower and ~$120-30 for the monitor. Unfortunately, Windows licenses are expensive, XP is $90, Vista and 7 are ~$100-120. However, if you already have a copy of XP you should be able to install it on the new machine (you might need to find an OEM disk; computer stores can usually burn one for you), then enter in the product key and it should work fine. Linux, of course, is free and will work fine if you can't get Windows right away. If you don't count the cost of an operating system then we could definitely trim this down to ~$550 including monitor if you want to. This would be at the cost of performance, however, because the only real places to cut are the CPU (could go with an Athlon II x2) and the graphics card (could go with Radeon 4650, which would only get low settings in newer games at a 1440x900 res). __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

10-23-2009, 01:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
notbryant Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14 OS: Windows XP SP3	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. I don't mean to sound annoying, but it seems like you're avoiding some of my questions. While I really appreciate the great products and brands suggested, I would really like to learn why I should choose them so I can know for future builds. Here's a few questions I still have: 1. Does hardware effect whether or not I can run a 32bit or 64bit system? 2. [Power] Is there anything else besides voltage that I should be aware of, other than knowing a good brand? 3. [CPU] Should I know about FSB? L2 Cache? Voltage? 4. [Motherboard] Does FSB speed matter? 5. How can you tell if a Board and CPU are compatible? Sockets? 6. Why did you swap memory brands for going to 2GB? What about the two links I suggested a few posts up? I have alot of stuff decided, and it's down to four things that I'm just not quite sure on. Case: GIGABYTE GZ-X2BPD-500 Black 0.6mm SECC Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811233033 $37.99 Memory: Patriot 2GB (2x1GB) DDR2 800 CL5 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820220174 $41.99 Optical drive: NU USB 2.0 External Slim DVD Multi Burner USB-Powered Model ESW860 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827154040 $25.00 (towards total) Hard drive: Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136320 $59.99 Monitor: LG W1943TB-PF Black 18.5" 5ms(GTG) 16:9 Widescreen LCD Monitor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16824005121 $129.99 Motherboard: CPU: Power supply: Graphics card: I'm unsure. I would really like to learn a little more about them. If you could answer the questions above, that would be great. SUBTOTAL: $294.96 + Board + Graphics + PSU Don't worry about a Windows license. I have a few XP licenses laying around, and I have an OEM disk as well. Let's keep the total around $600.

10-23-2009, 02:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,755 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Example of PSU current on +12V rail. Compare the Corsair CX400W power supply and the CoolerMaster eXtreme Power 400W. Both have the same power rating; but I would treat the CoolerMaster like it was a 300W unit. Why? The Corsair's +12V rail can deliver up to 30A of current, which is excellent for a 400W unit. Power = current * voltage, so 30 * 12 = 360. This PSU can deliver 360W on its +12V rail. 360/400 = .9, so 90% of this power supply's power is on the +12V rail, which is excellent. The CoolerMaster has 19A on its +12V rail. Using the same formula, 19 * 12 = 228W on the +12V rail. 228/400 = .57, so this PSU can only deliver 57% of its power on the +12V rail. Modern computers pull 80% or more of their power from the +12V rail. The CPU, graphics card, and a good deal of the motherboard are powered by +12V current, and it also contributes to the hard drives, optical drives, some fans, many PCI cards... In the past (Pentium 3 era) computers got most of their power from the +5V rail. Today, though, the +5V rail mainly powers just the hard drive motors, certain motherboard functions, and some fans. Even a system with a six hard drives and a dozen 5V fans won't pull more than 80-100W from the +5V rail, and on a typical system the draw will be more like 20-40W. Shoddy manufacturers like to make units with way-overspecced +5V and +3.3V rails and skimp on the +12V, because it's easier to engineer and cheaper to build that way. So a 400W PSU may not actually be able to power a system that needs a 400W PSU, because half of its power may be on rails not being used at more than 10%. Another trick used is to count the -12V, -5V, and +5VSB as part of the overall power rating, which makes the power rating an absolute fabrication, since those rails are used only for very specific specialty roles, and don't really contribute to the PSU's output as a whole. Current on the +12V rail, therefore, is a more important consideration than overall wattage in many cases. The advent of multiple +12V rail designs makes this a lot more complicated, though. A multiple-rail PSU has two or more (I've seen up to six) rails delivering power at +12V. This design is chosen because the ATX 2.something specification "recommended" that any power rail be limited to a maximum of 240VA (voltamps), which means the +12V rail shouldn't be more than 20A. Honestly, I don't know why they recommend this, as it is a bad thing on many levels. First off, with a single rail PSU it is easy to figure out how much current is available at +12V; it's right in the specs. However, with multiple +12V rails you can't tell, because each rail is rated at up to* however many amps (usually 18A or 20A). However, both rails can't deliver this power at once, because the maximum power available is determined by what the transformer can deliver. You might have two +12V rails capable of delivering up to 20A each; but you only have 30A to share between them. For instance, there was a PSU I saw earlier this week (don't remember the model). It was a 500W unit, and it had four +12V rails, each rated at 20A. Now, if each rail could deliver its power at once it would have been a 1200W power supply (12 * 80 = 960 = 80% of 1200W, assuming the +5V and +3.3V could make up the rest of the power). Since it obviously wasn't a 1200W PSU, it demonstrates my point. There were probably only 25-35A available to share between these four 20A rails. And since the information of how much +12V current is available is usually withheld, determining the actual power rating of a multi-rail PSU can be extremely difficult. Also, if one of those rails draws more than 20A, the PSU will shut down. You have to balance your power usage. But because many manufacturers don't tell you what components draw from which rail it can be very difficult to do so. The manufacturer may also have made poor choices on distribution of what components draw from which rail. Saw a review of another 500W unit that had one rail at 20A and another at 18A. Problem was that the 20A rail powered the 4-pin motherboard connector, 24-pin motherboard connector, and one PCIe 6-pin connector. The 18A rail powered the drives and the other PCIe connector. This means that nearly all of the major power users in the computer were attached to one +12V rail, while the other one would have barely any load on it at all. This means it would be very easy to draw too much power from the 20A +12V rail, which would cause the whole PC to shut down. So it's a very complicated deal, power supplies. I haven't even touched on voltage stability or power derating, and to be honest I have better things to do atm. I hope you find the information useful, and I'll be on again later to help more. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for. Last edited by Phædrus2401; 10-23-2009 at 02:43 PM.

10-23-2009, 02:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
Tyree Mentor Hardware Team Join Date: May 2009 Location: Illinois Posts: 5,508 OS: XP Pro-7RC-Mandriva My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Prebuilt external optical drives are not a good choice and are more expensive than an internal. __________________ Posting your PC specs will help us to help you quicker and more efficiently.

10-23-2009, 03:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
notbryant Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14 OS: Windows XP SP3	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Wow. Thanks so much. That answers all of my questions. 1. Thanks, that clears it up. 2. Right on. With all of what you said, I can see why the supply you suggested is good, and I'll be happy to go with it. 3. Wow...that's complicated. I think I'll look into that more. 4. Duly noted. 5. Definitely good to know. 6. Alrighty then. Sounds good to me. I liked your list, but I did sub in some stuff of my own. Like the case is only $37, just because I like it more than some $50 cases, so that brings down the budget. I subbed a 500GB black for your 320GB blue for +$10, and I found a really sweet external DVD burner, cause I don't think the one you linked to is external. Lastly, I looked around and found an LG monitor for the same price as the ones you suggested, except it looks a bit nicer. It's 19", has a slightly smaller resolution than the one's you were suggesting, has DVI, and has no speakers (which is nice, since I won't be using them anyway). So my new tally is Case $38 RAM $45 Power $80 HD $60 DVD $20 Monitor $120 Motherboard $80 CPU $100 Graphics $67 Total: $343 without s, $590 with. I'm not sure about the ones with *s, and since I'm actually slightly under-budget, I might consider upgrading at least one of them. I'm going to think on it today. Thanks again for all your help. -Jon

10-23-2009, 03:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,755 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Simplified explanation of FSB's impact on performance. Remember, FSB is bus speed times 4, and bus speed is what we use in the calculations. You have two CPUs with the same clock speed, say 2.0GHz, only one has a bus speed of 200Mhz and a multiplier of 10, while the other has a bus speed of 400MHz and a multiplier of 5. Both of these CPUs will be able to manipulate data 2000 million times per second. However, the 200x10 CPU will only be able to access the bus (and thus the RAM and other components) 200 million times per second, while the 400x5 CPU will be able to access the bus 400 million times per second. Thus, while they are both the same clock speed and do the same amount of operations in a given time, the one with the higher FSB can access the memory and other devices more often to give and receive data. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

10-23-2009, 04:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,755 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. I've never had trouble using ATI with linux, except in one case. Fedora 10 linux had a glitch where the default graphics driver would not work with Radeon 4800 series cards, and thus you couldn't see to install the dedicated drivers, and all you saw was a blank white screen. They fixed this in Fedora 11, and I'm running Ubuntu 9.04 on this build with a Radeon 4870, and it works fine. Also, though Nvidia cards are very good, right now ATI is definitely winning the price/performance battle by a large margin. Nvidia's competitor to the 4670, the 9600GT, costs about $90-100 on average, while the 4670 costs ~$60-70. So unless a user specifically requests Nvidia, or has an Nvidia motherboard, I usually suggest ATI. Though if Nvidia's prices come down it'll be the other way around, or a tossup at least. As for the CPU... That gets into complicated territory again. In my opinion and from my research, the Athlon II x3 435 is the best bang-for-the-buck in your price range. It has a decent FSB rating, it has a higher clock speed than most quad cores and so will do better running single- and dual-threaded applications than a quad would, but since it has the third core it will also do fairly well with multi-threaded apps. The other bang-for-buck option in your price range would be to go with the Intel version of that setup, which has a Pentium Dual Core E6500 2.93GHz. The E6500 does better in some applications that are still single- and dual-threaded, but since more and more programs are taking advantage of CPU cores past the first two, the AMD would probably be a better investment at the moment. Either should have plenty of power, but the AMD tri-core might have a longer useful lifespan. The Caviar Black drives are very good, and I didn't notice the Black 500GB was only $10 more than the Blue 320GB. Whups. I'll defer to Tyree's judgment on the DVD drive. Glad we've been a help. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

10-23-2009, 10:39 PM	#17 (permalink)
notbryant Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 14 OS: Windows XP SP3	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. @Phædrus As I've thought about it, I guess I'll lean toward ATI. I mean, like I said, every computer I've had that I can remember has ATI, and I've never had a problem with any of them, and if my Linux distro (Crunchbang) doesn't have a problem with it, then neither do I. As long as you believe that it can play a game like Left4Dead 2 with no problems, then I'm game. (Ha, pun). Your AMD vs. Intel discussion has won me over. I'll go with AMD. @Tyree Yeah, I did see "Encasements" (or whatever) while I was browsing. My question is, for just playing DVDs and ripping music, is a prebuilt external good enough (even if it's less bang for the buck)? Because I'd end out spending more if I made my own, and if it's overkill for just ripping music and playing movies, then that's money I could be putting toward something else. EDIT: Also, wouldn't that require an external power source, like a wall plug? I just realized the other day that if I did end out choosing 64bit, 2GB of RAM would be a bit low. If the budget allows, I think I'll go for 4GB. I do have a few more questions I've come up with, but I swear we are almost there! 1. Other than looking for matching compatibility and high enough FSB, what else is there to look for in a motherboard? (Besides USB ports, etc). 2. One of the nice things about EEE PCs is that they have two hard drives in them: one for the OS, one for documents and programs. I would kind of like to have a similar setup, even if I were to buy it later. What would you recommend for a smallerish HD, < or = 128GB, even if I were to buy it at a later time? 3. I found this in my basement : Turtle Beach Santa Cruz 5.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card; Would it be worth it to install that on my build, or is the sound card on my motherboard just as good/better? 4. Why isn't the processor you suggested on Newegg? Just kind of inconvenient...Of course, the Power Supply isn't either, so I guess I'll get that off TigerDirect. Just seems a little odd that they'd have my 10 year old soundcard, but not that CPU. So close! I'll try to finalize my list tomorrow (after I see your replies to this post), then I'll post my final results, and buy. Thanks again. You guys have been so much help. -Jon Last edited by notbryant; 10-23-2009 at 11:09 PM.

10-24-2009, 08:02 AM	#18 (permalink)
Tyree Mentor Hardware Team Join Date: May 2009 Location: Illinois Posts: 5,508 OS: XP Pro-7RC-Mandriva My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Prebuilt external optical drives generally use low quality housing with cheap circuitry and slim drives are generally not reliable or long lived. Using quality components is never overkill. Personally, I would give the Onboard sound a try before using a sound card. The new Onboard sound is quite impressive and very possibly better than your old card. What PSU are you referring to that Newegg doesn't show? __________________ Posting your PC specs will help us to help you quicker and more efficiently.

10-24-2009, 08:53 AM	#19 (permalink)
wrench97 Moderator, Hardware Team Join Date: May 2008 Location: S.E. Pennsylvania Posts: 18,463 OS: Win7	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. And if you chose to use the card make sure there are Win 7 drivers available and it may not support 64bit if that the version you chose. __________________ Power Supply and Selection

10-24-2009, 09:39 AM	#20 (permalink)
Tyree Mentor Hardware Team Join Date: May 2009 Location: Illinois Posts: 5,508 OS: XP Pro-7RC-Mandriva My System	Re: First time build ($500), need major advice. Very good point wrench97! __________________ Posting your PC specs will help us to help you quicker and more efficiently.