Better PSU Needed?

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 06:33 PM

My friend is building a system, around $700-800 budget (not including OS), for decent gaming (Call of Duty, etc.). The lower the price, the better, but somewhere around that range. Bear in mind that we live in CA, so Newegg, etc. will impose a ~10% sales tax. What we have for him so far:

AMD Phenom II X4 945
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103696

Sapphire ATI Radeon HD 4850 512 MB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102824

SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM 2MB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151187

ASUS M4A785TD-V EVO AM3 AMD 785G HDMI ATX AMD
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131398

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231189

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152102

That comes to about $560, before tax/shipping.

The case I found for him:

Tuniq 3 IC-TQ3-US-BK Black Aluminum front bezel
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811167001

Now he's looking for a PSU. He says he found one at Fry's that one of his friends says is good. It's one of those case + PSU combos. I warned him to be careful about those, and urged him to not scrimp on the PSU. This is what he found:

Tuniq 3 IC-TQ3-US-BK Black Aluminum front bezel
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811156062

Now, a few things.

1) With a decent enough PSU, what are the overclocking capabilities of this system, if any?
2) Could he build an equivalent or better system with an Intel CPU?
3) I've calculated his PSU needs, and the calculator says, on peak load and with 35% capacitor aging, that his needs will be around 500W. I just reread the PSU sticky, and we're supposed to add 30% on top of that. This brings us to 650W. Is this correct, and if so, how can I convince him that he needs a better PSU? (I've played the "this cheap PSU may fry your system" card, the "you'll be getting more bang for your buck" card, the "you get what you pay for" card, the "a good PSU can last you much longer" card, and the "you're not going to have enough expansion options" card, all to no avail.

)
4) How do we calculate amperage needs? (One thing that wasn't really clear from the PSU.)
5) My friend's said his friend told him he could get more connectors/converters to create more Molex plugs (one Newegg review says that the PSU only has four Molex connectors [!]), or something of that sort. I think that's impossible. Which one of us is correct?

Let me know if more information is needed. Thanks!

Phædrus2401 · 09-07-2009, 07:01 PM

You're definitely correct. A system like that needs a quality 600-650W PSU.

1.) I don't know how well the Phenom II x4 945 overclocks, but I wouldn't suggest *any* overclocking at all if he were using that cheap-o that comes with the case. By the way, Tuniq cases aren't that great, point him towards an Antec or Coolermaster if you can.
2.) Since DDR3 isn't any faster than DDR2 he could save money by going with, say, a GA-EP45-UD3R, an Intel Core 2 Duo E8500, and 4GB DDR2 1066 RAM. Or he could keep that CPU and go with an AM2/AM2+/AM3 board so that he can use DDR2 RAM, again saving money.
3.) 650W is about what I would suggest. The Corsair TX650W is on sale for a good deal right now.
4.) Unfortunately manufacturers don't provide that information, so there's no way to tell. However, we recommend a minimum of 26A for any PCIe x16 video card, and at least ~30-34A for the 4850.
5.) The Molex thing is possible, but unnecessary. You can stack molex connectors.

Link your friend here and we'll set him straight. Some of our techs have been in the industry for over twenty years, so if he doesn't want to listen to them then he can enjoy his underpowered computer while it lasts.

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 08:36 PM

What does this mean? "* Due to AMD CPU limitation, DDR2 1066 is supported by AM2+/AM3 CPU for one DIMM per channel only." http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131381 (how's this motherboard?)

We're trying to save some money elsewhere for that PSU. Looking at the Corsair TX-650W.

Phædrus2401 · 09-07-2009, 08:43 PM

It means that if you have two sticks of DDR2 1066 RAM and you put them in DIMM slots 1 and 2, only the one in slot 1 would run above 800MHz (1066MHz in that case), the other would only run at up to 800MHz. That's due to the way AMD works their RAM controller, don't ask me the technical details.

Tell him not to use a Samsung hard drive, they aren't that great. Also, hard drives greater than 750GB have a higher failure rate than those below, due to the fact that they use some immature technology and have much tighter tolerances. I have yet to meet someone who has completely filled a 500GB hard drive except my buddy who runs a file sharing server. You could save some money on the hard drive by going for this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136073

Also, you'll save money by going for DDR2 RAM and mobo, with no drop in performance.

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 08:51 PM

Would the thing about the Asus motherboard be something to worry about? And how's this combo?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231166
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103696
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131381

Phædrus2401 · 09-07-2009, 09:07 PM

It shouldn't be something to worry about, no.

I'm not as savvy with AMD as some of the others on here, but it looks good to me.

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 09:09 PM

Should we go for a non-modular PSU? (Just read the link in your sig.)

Also, with a $10 difference between Corsair's 650W and 750W models, should we go for the 750? Will it be beneficial at all?

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 09:17 PM

Never mind, make that a $20 difference; looks like their Labor Day sale just ended.

Phædrus2401 · 09-07-2009, 09:18 PM

Non modular doesn't have as huge an effect as PC Power and Cooling states, but it is a thing to consider. I usually don't recommend a modular PSU unless the person has a very small (mini-tower or HTPC) case, just because non-modular PSUs usually cost less. That said, the (modular) Corsair HX750W, HX850W, and HX1000W are some of the best power supplies on the market if you can afford them.

Ooh, they brought down the price on the 750s? Used to be $20 more.

It won't give you improved performance or anything, but the more breathing room you have power-wise the better. It lets the PSU run at a higher efficiency and you have more room for expansion later. Since Corsairs have a MTBF of about 11 years, you could potentially use the PSU in two or three builds. So I would consider the extra money worth it, but if your friend is really obstinate then the TX650W will work fine.

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 10:07 PM

How's this?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827118032

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129042

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136073

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131381

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102824

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139006

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231166

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103696

We'll be getting a wireless network card too.

Phædrus2401 · 09-07-2009, 10:12 PM

Looks good to me, only thing I could say is that Sony DVD drives aren't the best for writing disks. I had that one (or a very similar one) that lasted for three years before failing (the disk tray wouldn't open anymore). However they are slower at writing than LiteOn or LG drives. I would recommend this one for $5 cheaper:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106289

Otherwise you should be good to go.

getmoreatp · 09-07-2009, 10:22 PM

Which one's best? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833704031

Phædrus2401 · 09-07-2009, 10:25 PM

I don't trust any of Rosewill's products, so that one is out.

I know nothing about AZiO, and it only has one review, so I'd treat that 5 star rating with skepticism.

The TP-Link doesn't look like it has an antenna, so I don't know what kind of signal quality you would get with it.

The Encore looks pretty solid to me and has a fairly good rating with a very large user base. I'd go with that one.

**greenbrucelee** · 09-08-2009, 01:14 AM

Do not buy anything made by Rosewill, they use the cheapest components and I have never knew anyone who recommended anything made by them

Phædrus2401 · 09-08-2009, 01:33 AM

I had a Rosewill mouse pad once that a local PC shop gave to me for free. The scanned-on image came off the pad after about a month of use and I tossed it.

If they can't get a freaking mouse pad right, how can you expect them to get something with an integrated circuit right? Plus their PSUs are trash.

**greenbrucelee** · 09-08-2009, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phædrus2401

I had a Rosewill mouse pad once that a local PC shop gave to me for free. The scanned-on image came off the pad after about a month of use and I tossed it.

If they can't get a freaking mouse pad right, how can you expect them to get something with an integrated circuit right? Plus their PSUs are trash.

09-07-2009, 06:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Better PSU Needed? My friend is building a system, around $700-800 budget (not including OS), for decent gaming (Call of Duty, etc.). The lower the price, the better, but somewhere around that range. Bear in mind that we live in CA, so Newegg, etc. will impose a ~10% sales tax. What we have for him so far: AMD Phenom II X4 945 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103696 Sapphire ATI Radeon HD 4850 512 MB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102824 SAMSUNG Black 22X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-ROM 2MB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827151187 ASUS M4A785TD-V EVO AM3 AMD 785G HDMI ATX AMD http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131398 G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231189 SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152102 That comes to about $560, before tax/shipping. The case I found for him: Tuniq 3 IC-TQ3-US-BK Black Aluminum front bezel http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811167001 Now he's looking for a PSU. He says he found one at Fry's that one of his friends says is good. It's one of those case + PSU combos. I warned him to be careful about those, and urged him to not scrimp on the PSU. This is what he found: Tuniq 3 IC-TQ3-US-BK Black Aluminum front bezel http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811156062 Now, a few things. 1) With a decent enough PSU, what are the overclocking capabilities of this system, if any? 2) Could he build an equivalent or better system with an Intel CPU? 3) I've calculated his PSU needs, and the calculator says, on peak load and with 35% capacitor aging, that his needs will be around 500W. I just reread the PSU sticky, and we're supposed to add 30% on top of that. This brings us to 650W. Is this correct, and if so, how can I convince him that he needs a better PSU? (I've played the "this cheap PSU may fry your system" card, the "you'll be getting more bang for your buck" card, the "you get what you pay for" card, the "a good PSU can last you much longer" card, and the "you're not going to have enough expansion options" card, all to no avail. ) 4) How do we calculate amperage needs? (One thing that wasn't really clear from the PSU.) 5) My friend's said his friend told him he could get more connectors/converters to create more Molex plugs (one Newegg review says that the PSU only has four Molex connectors [!]), or something of that sort. I think that's impossible. Which one of us is correct? Let me know if more information is needed. Thanks! Last edited by getmoreatp; 09-07-2009 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Edited incorrect number.

09-07-2009, 07:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? You're definitely correct. A system like that needs a quality 600-650W PSU. 1.) I don't know how well the Phenom II x4 945 overclocks, but I wouldn't suggest any overclocking at all if he were using that cheap-o that comes with the case. By the way, Tuniq cases aren't that great, point him towards an Antec or Coolermaster if you can. 2.) Since DDR3 isn't any faster than DDR2 he could save money by going with, say, a GA-EP45-UD3R, an Intel Core 2 Duo E8500, and 4GB DDR2 1066 RAM. Or he could keep that CPU and go with an AM2/AM2+/AM3 board so that he can use DDR2 RAM, again saving money. 3.) 650W is about what I would suggest. The Corsair TX650W is on sale for a good deal right now. 4.) Unfortunately manufacturers don't provide that information, so there's no way to tell. However, we recommend a minimum of 26A for any PCIe x16 video card, and at least ~30-34A for the 4850. 5.) The Molex thing is possible, but unnecessary. You can stack molex connectors. Link your friend here and we'll set him straight. Some of our techs have been in the industry for over twenty years, so if he doesn't want to listen to them then he can enjoy his underpowered computer while it lasts. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

09-07-2009, 08:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Re: Better PSU Needed? What does this mean? "* Due to AMD CPU limitation, DDR2 1066 is supported by AM2+/AM3 CPU for one DIMM per channel only." http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131381 (how's this motherboard?) We're trying to save some money elsewhere for that PSU. Looking at the Corsair TX-650W.

09-07-2009, 08:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? It means that if you have two sticks of DDR2 1066 RAM and you put them in DIMM slots 1 and 2, only the one in slot 1 would run above 800MHz (1066MHz in that case), the other would only run at up to 800MHz. That's due to the way AMD works their RAM controller, don't ask me the technical details. Tell him not to use a Samsung hard drive, they aren't that great. Also, hard drives greater than 750GB have a higher failure rate than those below, due to the fact that they use some immature technology and have much tighter tolerances. I have yet to meet someone who has completely filled a 500GB hard drive except my buddy who runs a file sharing server. You could save some money on the hard drive by going for this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136073 Also, you'll save money by going for DDR2 RAM and mobo, with no drop in performance. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

09-07-2009, 08:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Re: Better PSU Needed? Would the thing about the Asus motherboard be something to worry about? And how's this combo? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231166 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103696 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131381

09-07-2009, 09:07 PM	#6 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? It shouldn't be something to worry about, no. I'm not as savvy with AMD as some of the others on here, but it looks good to me. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

09-07-2009, 09:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Re: Better PSU Needed? Should we go for a non-modular PSU? (Just read the link in your sig.) Also, with a $10 difference between Corsair's 650W and 750W models, should we go for the 750? Will it be beneficial at all? Last edited by getmoreatp; 09-07-2009 at 09:12 PM.

09-07-2009, 09:17 PM	#8 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Re: Better PSU Needed? Never mind, make that a $20 difference; looks like their Labor Day sale just ended.

09-07-2009, 09:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? Non modular doesn't have as huge an effect as PC Power and Cooling states, but it is a thing to consider. I usually don't recommend a modular PSU unless the person has a very small (mini-tower or HTPC) case, just because non-modular PSUs usually cost less. That said, the (modular) Corsair HX750W, HX850W, and HX1000W are some of the best power supplies on the market if you can afford them. Ooh, they brought down the price on the 750s? Used to be $20 more. It won't give you improved performance or anything, but the more breathing room you have power-wise the better. It lets the PSU run at a higher efficiency and you have more room for expansion later. Since Corsairs have a MTBF of about 11 years, you could potentially use the PSU in two or three builds. So I would consider the extra money worth it, but if your friend is really obstinate then the TX650W will work fine. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

09-07-2009, 10:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Re: Better PSU Needed? How's this? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827118032 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129042 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136073 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131381 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102824 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139006 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231166 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103696 We'll be getting a wireless network card too.

09-07-2009, 10:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? Looks good to me, only thing I could say is that Sony DVD drives aren't the best for writing disks. I had that one (or a very similar one) that lasted for three years before failing (the disk tray wouldn't open anymore). However they are slower at writing than LiteOn or LG drives. I would recommend this one for $5 cheaper: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106289 Otherwise you should be good to go. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

09-07-2009, 10:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
getmoreatp Registered User Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 47 OS: Windows XP SP3, Vista Home Premium SP2	Re: Better PSU Needed? Which one's best? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16833704031

09-07-2009, 10:25 PM	#13 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? I don't trust any of Rosewill's products, so that one is out. I know nothing about AZiO, and it only has one review, so I'd treat that 5 star rating with skepticism. The TP-Link doesn't look like it has an antenna, so I don't know what kind of signal quality you would get with it. The Encore looks pretty solid to me and has a fairly good rating with a very large user base. I'd go with that one. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.

09-08-2009, 01:14 AM	#14 (permalink)
greenbrucelee Mentor Hardware team Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,849 OS: XP SP3 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? Do not buy anything made by Rosewill, they use the cheapest components and I have never knew anyone who recommended anything made by them __________________ Microsoft certified professional, Network +, A+ certified

09-08-2009, 01:33 AM	#15 (permalink)
Phædrus2401 Hardware Tech Team Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: New Orleans Posts: 3,798 OS: Vista Ultimate x64 SP1 + Ubuntu 9.04 My System	Re: Better PSU Needed? I had a Rosewill mouse pad once that a local PC shop gave to me for free. The scanned-on image came off the pad after about a month of use and I tossed it. If they can't get a freaking mouse pad right, how can you expect them to get something with an integrated circuit right? Plus their PSUs are trash. __________________ Good PSU brands: Corsair, SeaSonic, CWT, PC Power and Cooling, Thermaltake Toughpower, CoolerMaster Real Power Pro On 80+ Certification - PSU Information and Selection - Power Supply Myths You don't get what you don't pay for.