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B&S 446777-0165-E1 V-Twin Firing on one cylinder

This is a discussion on B&S 446777-0165-E1 V-Twin Firing on one cylinder within the Small Engines forums, part of the Tech Support Forum category. Hey guys, Great site. I hope you can help. I have a B&S 446777-0165-E1 twin cylinder engine. It appears to


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Old 12-02-2009, 01:52 PM   #1
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Hey guys,

Great site. I hope you can help.

I have a B&S 446777-0165-E1 twin cylinder engine. It appears to be running on one cylinder, here are the symptoms:

Has spark to both cylinders (tested by mechanic). Appears to be getting gas to both cylinders (tested by mechanic).

Starts easily and sounds like it's running on both at startup.

Within a few seconds, the sound of the engine changes, appears to run more smoothly.

With both plug wires in place and the engine running, if the "bad" cylinder spark plug wire is removed, nothing changes.

With both plug wires in place and the engine running, if the "good" cylinder spark plug wire is removed, the engine dies.

Mechanic did a compression test. Says that the "bad" cylinder is showing 150 at cranking/startup, within a few seconds drops to 120, then to 60 and stays there.

His suggestion was to replace the engine.

Any better suggestions?

Mike

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Old 12-03-2009, 05:59 AM   #2
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Quote:
Mechanic did a compression test. Says that the "bad" cylinder is showing 150 at cranking/startup, within a few seconds drops to 120, then to 60 and stays there.

His suggestion was to replace the engine.
Find another small engine guy and have him look at the valves. You could pull the exhaust/muffler and have a look at the cylinder walls. If scored, replacement may be in your future. If not, my guess would be head gasket or a valve problem.

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Old 12-03-2009, 10:21 AM   #3
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Thanks. After reading another post here, I was thinking about cleaning the carb, and opening the valve covers, inspecting and adjusting the valves to see if that improves anything. What do you think?

BTW, do those compression numbers make any sense? I have the B&S repair manual, but it says B&S doesn't publish compression numbers. It just gives advice to test if the cylinders are behaving equally.

Back up my hard drive? What if it's already against the wall?

Mike
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:00 PM   #4
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How old is the equipment?? What were the results of the compression test on the "good" cylinder?? Did your mechanic mention the possibility of a failing coil on the "bad" cylinder??
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Old 12-03-2009, 12:24 PM   #5
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Engine and tractor are 2003.

He said the compression on the "good" cylinder is fine, but I don't think he gave me numbers.

No mention of failing coil. Wouldn't that kill the spark (he said it's getting spark, I haven't tested it yet myself).

Not to be overly stupid, but a compression test can really only be done with the engine NOT running, correct?

BTW, other than knowing it's running on one cylinder, it operates just fine. I do use this with a snowblower attachment, so I'd really like both cylinders to be running...

Mike
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #6
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BTW, does anyone know where I can figure out which replacement model will fit if it comes to that?

The B&S site just has the newest specs, no cross-reference list that I can find. The big thing seems to be the "Type" code, which is supposed to indicate PTO, etc. Mine is 0165, what does that mean?

Mike
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Old 12-03-2009, 02:47 PM   #7
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Did you actually witness the presence of spark, or are you going by what the machanic told you?? Yes, a compression test can only be done by cranking the engine with the ignition disabled.

I'm toying with the notion that a valve may not be closing all the way.... getting "hung" after the engine comes up to temperature. A constant "puffing" noise in the muffler will indicate the exhaust valve and a "popping" noise in the air cleaner indicates an intake valve.

Check for spark and condition of spark plugs.... a plug may look good even though it has failed. Usually when a plug fails it is done for and will not come back to life and exhibit the symptoms your mower is showing.

I still don't think the engine needs replaced..... the least may be a bad coil and the worst could be valve servicing.

I came up with this...ouch!!

http://www.napaonline.com/Search/Res...mber&Nty=1&N=0

Got the part # and did a cross reference. Kinda pricey but less than a new engine!!
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Old 12-03-2009, 05:15 PM   #8
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Replacement Engine : 44Q777-0127 MSRP $819.95
Replacement Shortblock: 698172 MSRP $765.25
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:15 AM   #9
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Thanks guys. I agree, valves do seem to make sense. I also have neglected some routine maintenance this year (oil, filters, plugs are all at least 1-2 years old)...

Mechanic mentioned valves, but thought it was probably cylinders because it had some pressure to start with. Honestly, I don't know how good this guy is, this is the first time I tried him out.

The mechanic didn't do the spark test in front of me, and I haven't pulled the plugs yet myself. I plan to do all of that tomorrow, and I will get a compression tester to help.

I'll start by adjusting the valves and see if that helps. I did notice a sound that almost sounded like backfiring (on the one cylinder that does work), so I probably have valve issues on both sides, most likely a dirty carb as well.

Here's my plan:
Change spark plugs, oil, air and fuel filters.
Clean carb.
Adjust valves (both cylinders).
Test for spark.
Test compression.

BTW, I couldn't get that napaonline link to work.

Just of out curiosity... How do I know what the type number means? Mine is 0165, where did you get the info that 0127 is a direct replacement?

Mike
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:20 AM   #10
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I see what you mean about the link... I always check the links and it worked after I posted but does not work now. I will recheck and post if needed.

Just checked link again and it worked
Could be a problem on their end.

Problem is on their end...retried and got error.
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:52 AM   #11
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OK, is there anything you think that I should add to my list of things to try above?

Mike
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Old 12-04-2009, 10:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeinri View Post
Thanks guys. I agree, valves do seem to make sense. I also have neglected some routine maintenance this year (oil, filters, plugs are all at least 1-2 years old)...

Mechanic mentioned valves, but thought it was probably cylinders because it had some pressure to start with. Honestly, I don't know how good this guy is, this is the first time I tried him out.

The mechanic didn't do the spark test in front of me, and I haven't pulled the plugs yet myself. I plan to do all of that tomorrow, and I will get a compression tester to help.

I'll start by adjusting the valves and see if that helps. I did notice a sound that almost sounded like backfiring (on the one cylinder that does work), so I probably have valve issues on both sides, most likely a dirty carb as well.

Here's my plan:
Change spark plugs, oil, air and fuel filters.
Clean carb.
Adjust valves (both cylinders).
Test for spark.
Test compression.

BTW, I couldn't get that napaonline link to work.

Just of out curiosity... How do I know what the type number means? Mine is 0165, where did you get the info that 0127 is a direct replacement?

Mike
The type number identifies the engine mechanical parts, color of paint, decals, governed speed and Original Equipment Manufacturer. The replacement engine information is from Briggs & Stratton.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:13 PM   #13
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That's what's driving me nuts. When I look at the B&S website, I find a nice catalog of replacement engines and their specs, but I can't find a direct cross-reference list to old engines.

So, without pulling the engine out of the tractor, how do I know what size PTO I have (that seems to be the critical piece of info, and 0165, 0127, etc. must be the key to that info).

Mike
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:25 PM   #14
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The crankshaft is a 1" diameter, tapped for 7/16-20 bolt.
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Old 12-04-2009, 01:38 PM   #15
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I go here just for comparison:

http://www.smallenginesuppliers.com/shop/agora.cgi

The only difference is the crankshaft extension....4 5/16" or 3 5/32".
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:37 PM   #16
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Right... is that length not critical?

BTW, can't get your new link to work, either. I did go to their main page and searched for my number (446777-0165), but it wasn't found...

Hopefully, my list of items to fix tomorrow will get me going. I'll let you know.

Thanks again.

Mike
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:02 AM   #17
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OK, here's an update.

FYI, I confirmed with B&S (email through website) the following information for replacing the engine: 446777-0165 replacement is 44Q777-0127, short block is 698172 (K-B was right, above). The 0165 featured the following: The crankshaft on the engine is 3 5/32" in length with a 1" diameter. The end of the crankshaft is tapped 7/16"-20.

Didn't get time to finish much of my list this weekend. Fortunately, the snow that we got Saturday night didn't amount to much on the driveway...

OK, so I tested for spark with a spark plug test light (not the B&S tool, but one that I bought at a local auto parts store). Both cylinders show spark during startup and while the engine was running (not that both cylinders are running).

Removed the spark plugs. The plug in the "good" cylinder looks normal, gap was good (0.030 in). The plug in the "bad" cylinder looked sort of OK, the electrode and insulator looked normal, and the gap was good. However, the base of the housing appeared to be wet, but I can't tell if it's gas or oil (it's black, and a bit gritty looking).

I then switched the plugs (put the one from the "good" cylinder into "bad" and vice-versa). The engine shows exactly the same symptoms, so the problem is definitely not the spark plugs.

I removed the air cleaner, and sprayed some carb cleaner and PB Tune-Up spray into the carb while the engine was running. This caused lots of choking and smoke, but after it cleared, it does sound a little better. This didn't fix the bad cylinder (not that I expected it to).

I also noticed that when the engine is stopped, some small puffs of white smoke come back up through the carb. I'm sure this is not normal, but what would cause that?

This is where I ran out of time. I really don't want to pull the carb apart yet (especially since I don't have a gasket set right now), so what should be my next move? Should I jump right to adjusting the valves?

Mike
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:29 AM   #18
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I does seem that the valves may need to be looked at.

http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=3441&body_0$tbKeyword=valve adjustment

See if you can get some useful info from the link.

If the engine has been neglected you may be looking at replacing it...hope not.

Don't know why it didn't come up as a link.. might have to copy and paste it.
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:43 AM   #19
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I don't know if I qualify as "neglecting" the engine. I ususally replace the plugs, oil and filters every year, I know I didn't get to it yet this year. I haven't had the carb apart in several years.

Anyway, I'm going to start with adjusting the valves and see if that helps. If not, I'll pull the heads/valves and carb apart and go from there.

Mike
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Old 12-07-2009, 11:55 AM   #20
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B&S does give instructions for head removal and carbon deposit cleaning. I can post the link if you like.

http://engines.myfaqcenter.com/Answer.aspx?p_faqid=3439

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