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Old 12-15-2009, 04:50 PM   #1
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Hi,

I am working on creating space on a laptop. It has a 250 GB HD. Out of this, apparently almost 25 GB is taken up by system backup/restore partition (I think). So the total disk appears as a 224 GB disk. I started to backup files using the Toshiba Disk Creator but frequently got errors saying it could not continue writing to the DVD because it may have scratches or something to that effect. This happened several times.

After this, when I was actually successful in writing to another DVD, I deleted the folders on the disk that I had backed up to the DVD. Thus I was expecting the free space to go up. But it didn't. I tried using ccleaner, and I also tried rebooting thinking that after reboot I will see more free space. But it didn't.

Eventually I started using another disk burning program (ImgBurn) since I was fed up with the Toshiba Disk Creator and then I noticed that suddenly by free disk space went up from 44 GB to 104 GB. So I thought the problem might have been that Toshiba Disk Creator was creating some kind of cache for storing temp files, but when I looked in AppData I did not see any large files or even a large number of files from my previous unsuccessful attempts at writing to DVDs. Since the free disk space went up, I was happy and I continued using ImgBurn with better results. But after I deleted the folders that I had backed up, I again noticed that sometimes I am not seeing the free disk space go up.

I would appreciate any pointers as to what I should look for or do.

Toshiba Satellite L350 - 3 GB RAM, 250 GB HD
Windows Vista Home Premium with SP2
Intel Core 2 Duo T 6400 (2 GHz)


Please let me know if you need any other information.

Thank you.

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Old 12-16-2009, 10:44 PM   #2
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Two questions:
(1) How are you performing the deletions?
(2) How do check how much free disk space you have?

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Old 12-17-2009, 04:10 AM   #3
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Please take a screenshot of Disk Management -
START | diskmgmt.msc

Also, download the zip file, extract the batch file to your desktop. RIGHT-click on the batch file icon, select "Run as Administrator". A notepad will open with information pertaining to VSS/ System Restore. It may take 5-10 seconds to run. Save it as a text file.

http://www.techsupportforum.com/atta..._jcgriff2_.zip

Attach the screenshot and the text file to your next post.

Please be sure to answer Paul R Smith's questions.

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Old 12-17-2009, 02:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R Smith View Post
Two questions:
(1) How are you performing the deletions?
(2) How do check how much free disk space you have?

Paul, sorry I should have mentioned that I deleted them using Eraser. I found that I did not have to clean the Recycle Bin afterwards if I do it this way and they both (delete vs eraser) take two clicks.

I am looking at the free space from the explorer window. In the left pane, I click on 'Computer' and in the right pane it shows me the disk space (there is only one partition which is C drive).

I will try to attach a screenshot when I get a chance.

Thanks
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Old 12-17-2009, 02:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
Please take a screenshot of Disk Management -
START | diskmgmt.msc

Also, download the zip file, extract the batch file to your desktop. RIGHT-click on the batch file icon, select "Run as Administrator". A notepad will open with information pertaining to VSS/ System Restore. It may take 5-10 seconds to run. Save it as a text file.

http://www.techsupportforum.com/atta..._jcgriff2_.zip

Attach the screenshot and the text file to your next post.

Please be sure to answer Paul R Smith's questions.

Regards. . .

jcgriff2

.

Thanks jcgriff2. I will carry out what you have told me to as soon as I get a chance to do it. I have answered Paul R Smith's questions.
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:39 PM   #6
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@jcgriff2, here is the txt output and the screenshots.

Screenshot of Diskmgmt.msc


Screenshot of the explorer window showing free disk space


Here is the text file after running vss.bat
Code:
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Shadow Copy Storage association
   For volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{8485b2bd-1360-11de-9a8f-806e6f6e6963}\
   Shadow Copy Storage volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{8485b2bd-1360-11de-9a8f-806e6f6e6963}\
   Used Shadow Copy Storage space: 28.963 GB
   Allocated Shadow Copy Storage space: 30.176 GB
   Maximum Shadow Copy Storage space: 31.319 GB

vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Contents of shadow copy set ID: {13ed9edf-b325-4384-a5b6-ac2b2fe31d6a}
   Contained 1 shadow copies at creation time: 12/14/2009 4:56:08 AM
      Shadow Copy ID: {632770cd-10e7-4cf7-9d4f-9172cf3c9477}
         Original Volume: (C:)\\?\Volume{8485b2bd-1360-11de-9a8f-806e6f6e6963}\
         Shadow Copy Volume: \\?\GLOBALROOT\Device\HarddiskVolumeShadowCopy1
         Originating Machine: My-PC
         Service Machine: My-PC
         Provider: 'Microsoft Software Shadow Copy provider 1.0'
         Type: ClientAccessibleWriters
         Attributes: Persistent, Client-accessible, No auto release, Differential, Auto recovered

vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Volume path: \\?\Volume{8485b2bc-1360-11de-9a8f-806e6f6e6963}\
    Volume name: \\?\Volume{8485b2bc-1360-11de-9a8f-806e6f6e6963}\
Volume path: C:\
    Volume name: \\?\Volume{8485b2bd-1360-11de-9a8f-806e6f6e6963}\
vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp.

Writer name: 'System Writer'
   Writer Id: {e8132975-6f93-4464-a53e-1050253ae220}
   Writer Instance Id: {142a4fd3-e153-4f49-a497-67441d58ac9f}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'ASR Writer'
   Writer Id: {be000cbe-11fe-4426-9c58-531aa6355fc4}
   Writer Instance Id: {5633201d-d699-4619-8c8c-3ec5bddfe012}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'WMI Writer'
   Writer Id: {a6ad56c2-b509-4e6c-bb19-49d8f43532f0}
   Writer Instance Id: {a9616aed-4b27-47a8-98eb-d5934fd1f2ae}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'Shadow Copy Optimization Writer'
   Writer Id: {4dc3bdd4-ab48-4d07-adb0-3bee2926fd7f}
   Writer Instance Id: {3510c028-da38-4ae6-b07b-f41083fd3965}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'BITS Writer'
   Writer Id: {4969d978-be47-48b0-b100-f328f07ac1e0}
   Writer Instance Id: {1fbbce14-7c9f-4b0f-8fd6-a5f7a6f083bd}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'Registry Writer'
   Writer Id: {afbab4a2-367d-4d15-a586-71dbb18f8485}
   Writer Instance Id: {44172458-1bc8-4fde-b4d8-642923f03094}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'COM+ REGDB Writer'
   Writer Id: {542da469-d3e1-473c-9f4f-7847f01fc64f}
   Writer Instance Id: {d1dee6db-5f8f-434f-858a-081bcac81a71}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error

Writer name: 'MSSearch Service Writer'
   Writer Id: {cd3f2362-8bef-46c7-9181-d62844cdc0b2}
   Writer Instance Id: {a2932b51-3961-4c9e-82db-307482798596}
   State: [1] Stable
   Last error: No error
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Old 12-17-2009, 05:46 PM   #7
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One thing to possibly remember.
Explorer doesnt always update correctly.
Try to go to view refresh after a deletion is made and see if the numbers change.
You may even need to close and restart explorer before it will tell the truth.
I have seen this happen on my own machine, but I cant explain why it happens.

It wouldnt explain rebooting and not seeing a change but something to think about when going through this.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:43 PM   #8
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I'm not familiar with ERASER but reading about I could understand if it takes a while for the deletion to be reported correctly.
I'd try using the basic explorer deletion method i.e. right click on file/folder and DELETE/Empty recycle Bin or the SHIFT/DELETE method and see if the true value turns up.
Pat is right about needing to REFRESH to see the real picture.
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Old 12-18-2009, 01:27 AM   #9
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Thanks for screenshot & VSS run.

When did you install the OS? It shows only 1 VS/ System Restore point created on 12/14/09.

My figures -
Code:
Disk Management shows your c: drive to be 224 GB

  224.17 GB = c: drive per Disk Management
(  30.18) GB = Allocated space by VSS/ System restore
( 100.92) GB Free space
---------
   93.07 GB space used c:
=========
93 GB may be a little high even for Vista.

I suggest that you look for the space used. Download either Tree Size Free or Tree Size Pro. Install, then RIGHT-click on the desktop icon, select "Run as administrator" - and watch the screen fill up. It will show you where your space is being used and by what.

Free version --> http://www.jam-software.com/treesize_free/
21-day Pro Trial --> https://www.jam-software.de/customer...93f6153a58e475

BTW - what are the other partitions on your hard drive - 1.46 GB & 7.25 GB - 100% free space? What are they for?

Regards. . .

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Old 12-18-2009, 09:12 AM   #10
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There is a way to set the recycle bin to not save.
Right click the recycle bin icon and hit properties.
Click the Do not move files to recycle bin button and you will never have to empty it again.
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Old 12-18-2009, 05:58 PM   #11
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@pat mcgroin and Paul R Smith, thank you for the info. I tried refreshing several times, then I exited out of explorer and started it back again. After doing this several time (thinking is taking time for whatever reason to show updated values), I then tried rebooting. On WinXP deleting files using eraser immediately updates the free disk space value.

@jcgriff2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
Thanks for screenshot & VSS run.

When did you install the OS? It shows only 1 VS/ System Restore point created on 12/14/09.
Thank you for helping me. The OS came installed on the laptop bought directly from Toshiba. I have not changed any settings such as restore point. I had not even checked to see how many restore points are there, but 1 seems low!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
My figures -
Code:
Disk Management shows your c: drive to be 224 GB

  224.17 GB = c: drive per Disk Management
(  30.18) GB = Allocated space by VSS/ System restore
( 100.92) GB Free space
---------
   93.07 GB space used c:
=========
93 GB may be a little high even for Vista.
No, it is not all taken up by Vista. There are lot of files and folders on that drive (that is the only drive). I know it is not a good practice to have everything on one drive and ideally there should have been some other partitions (drives?) carved out, but I was not confident of doing it and I did not want to mess with it as the laptop belongs to my brother. So I let it be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
I suggest that you look for the space used. Download either Tree Size Free or Tree Size Pro. Install, then RIGHT-click on the desktop icon, select "Run as administrator" - and watch the screen fill up. It will show you where your space is being used and by what.

Free version --> http://www.jam-software.com/treesize_free/
21-day Pro Trial --> https://www.jam-software.de/customer...93f6153a58e475
OK. That's a good idea. I will do that. Thanks for the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
BTW - what are the other partitions on your hard drive - 1.46 GB & 7.25 GB - 100% free space? What are they for?
.
Sorry, I don't know!! That it how it was when the laptop arrived. There were no OS disks with it and the literature that came with it said to back the OS up on DVDs, which I have yet to do!!

Thanks much for your help.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:00 PM   #12
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"Backing up the OS on DVDs" = creating the Vista recovery DVDs that may be needed someday. I would perform that task ASAP. My preference is to use DVD-R discs. You will only be able to burn 1 set. Please do it soon.

Whether all is on a single partition or multiple ones these days - is up to the user. I know of the arguments and look at such like experts testifying in a court case - you will find compelling information and reasoning for both. Trying to decide which "expert" is "right" will drive you nuts. To me, it is simply personal preference. I prefer at least 2 partitions b/c I keep BSOD dump files on the non-OS partition.

BTW - bad choice of words on my part to imply that Vista was using 93 GB. However, I have seen Vista OS', excluding VSS, use 75 GB +. Most tonnage will be found in \windows\winsxs

Regards. . .

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p.s. You can always create system restore points on your own. They function like generation data groups - if all allocated space is used and a new one is created, the oldest will "fall off the end" (deleted).
START | type rstrui

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Old 12-19-2009, 03:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
"Backing up the OS on DVDs" = creating the Vista recovery DVDs that may be needed someday. I would perform that task ASAP. My preference is to use DVD-R discs. You will only be able to burn 1 set. Please do it soon.
Yes, actually you are right. I did not use the right terminology. They did say 'recovery disks' and not 'backup OS'.

OK. I will do it. May I ask the reason for preferring DVD-R discs? Is it so that they won't be accidentally overwritten as they might if they were DVD-RW?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
Whether all is on a single partition or multiple ones these days - is up to the user. I know of the arguments and look at such like experts testifying in a court case - you will find compelling information and reasoning for both. Trying to decide which "expert" is "right" will drive you nuts. To me, it is simply personal preference. I prefer at least 2 partitions b/c I keep BSOD dump files on the non-OS partition.
Sorry, this a bit over my head. By 2 partitions do you mean 2 drives? Doesn't each partition have to have a letter? I am not clear if a partition and a drive are the same. Sorry about this ignorance. The screenshot I attached had 3 partitions but no drive letters associated with two of the partitions. Or maybe they don't associate a drive letter with the partition so as to prevent users from writing to it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
BTW - bad choice of words on my part to imply that Vista was using 93 GB. However, I have seen Vista OS', excluding VSS, use 75 GB +. Most tonnage will be found in \windows\winsxs

Regards. . .

jcgriff2

.

p.s. You can always create system restore points on your own. They function like generation data groups - if all allocated space is used and a new one is created, the oldest will "fall off the end" (deleted).
START | type rstrui

.
Thanks for the command. I will try it out.

If Vista can take that much (up to 75 GB), then there is another area I am not clear about. Out of the 250 GB HD, 25 GB was not available from the moment we got the laptop. So I thought that the backup copy of Vista is stored in that 25 GB perhaps in compressed form.

Thanks
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Old 12-20-2009, 03:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhammaguest View Post
. . .May I ask the reason for preferring DVD-R discs? Is it so that they won't be accidentally overwritten as they might if they were DVD-RW?
I had problems initially with DVD+RW & DVD+R - some system manufacturer's mandate DVD-R. So, I just buy DVD-R; nothing else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhammaguest View Post
By 2 partitions do you mean 2 drives? Doesn't each partition have to have a letter? I am not clear if a partition and a drive are the same. Sorry about this ignorance. The screenshot I attached had 3 partitions but no drive letters associated with two of the partitions. Or maybe they don't associate a drive letter with the partition so as to prevent users from writing to it.
Most systems have 1 physical hard drive formatted in NTFS. NTFS allows 4 partitions of that 1 physical hard drive. You can assign a letter to each or not.

I had the same question - what is on those 2 partitions w/ no drive letter as they show 100% free space.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dhammaguest View Post
If Vista can take that much (up to 75 GB), then there is another area I am not clear about. Out of the 250 GB HD, 25 GB was not available from the moment we got the laptop. So I thought that the backup copy of Vista is stored in that 25 GB perhaps in compressed form.
Another bad choice of words on my part. When I say that "Vista" can use 75 GB, I refer to the OS, installed programs (many come with the OS - MS related), the page file (usually 1.05x physical RAM on most systems today - if page file is system managed, which is set that way by default). Vista also keeps many versions of drivers in the \windows\winsxs folder - winsxs will probably be THE or among the top 5 largest folders on the system.

As for the other "missing" space - it is math related - the use of binary numbers and decimal numbers.

Binary is used by the hard drive manufacturers; 1 GB = 1024 MB
Decimal is used by Windows; 1 GB = 1000 MB
So we have a 24MB difference for each GB

Here is article explaining --> http://www.pcguide.com/intro/fun/bindec-c.html

My 320GB hard drive shows up as 298.08 GB.

Regards. . .

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Old 12-21-2009, 04:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
I had problems initially with DVD+RW & DVD+R - some system manufacturer's mandate DVD-R. So, I just buy DVD-R; nothing else.
OK. I understand now. I have not tried DVD+RW, but I have also had problems with DVD-RW from various vendors. But Sony DVD-RW seems to work OK on this machine and also on my desktop machine.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
Most systems have 1 physical hard drive formatted in NTFS. NTFS allows 4 partitions of that 1 physical hard drive. You can assign a letter to each or not.

I had the same question - what is on those 2 partitions w/ no drive letter as they show 100% free space.
I see, thanks. I don't know how to access those drives to see what is on them.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
Another bad choice of words on my part. When I say that "Vista" can use 75 GB, I refer to the OS, installed programs (many come with the OS - MS related), the page file (usually 1.05x physical RAM on most systems today - if page file is system managed, which is set that way by default). Vista also keeps many versions of drivers in the \windows\winsxs folder - winsxs will probably be THE or among the top 5 largest folders on the system.
Not a bad choice of words as much as my lack of knowledge or ability to understand. Instead of thinking of Vista as just the OS files that came from MS, I should have understood that after it is installed on a machine, there will be other things such as the page file that will take up space. I did not know regarding the many versions of drivers, but now I know. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
As for the other "missing" space - it is math related - the use of binary numbers and decimal numbers.

Binary is used by the hard drive manufacturers; 1 GB = 1024 MB
Decimal is used by Windows; 1 GB = 1000 MB
So we have a 24MB difference for each GB

Here is article explaining --> http://www.pcguide.com/intro/fun/bindec-c.html

My 320GB hard drive shows up as 298.08 GB.
Thank you for clarifying the mystery, and for the link! MS could have followed the binary measurement so that the inconsistency would not confuse users like me.

As an update, after a few reboots (not done for this problem, but over the past few days), suddenly now the free disk space shows up at 129 GB. (earlier it was 100 GB). I did not get a chance yet to run the 'treesize_free' program that you had mentioned earlier.

I do appreciate your patience in explaining things in detail. Thank you very much.

Regards and wish you a Merry Christmas
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Old 12-21-2009, 08:57 PM   #16
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"Patience" is a required virtue here at TSF !! We all are volunteers.

Run the Treesize app and I think you'll find additional answers.

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

JC

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Old 12-21-2009, 10:33 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcgriff2 View Post
Binary is used by the hard drive manufacturers; 1 GB = 1024 MB
Decimal is used by Windows; 1 GB = 1000 MB
Actually, it's the other way around, the hard drive manufacturers use Decimal. (Been hitting the Xmas Nog a bit early JC?)

They do that because it makes the drive appear bigger. They can say a 232 GiB drive is 250,000,000,000 bytes, or 250 GB.

I'd guess the other two partitions are the Diagnostics (1.46 GiB partition) and the Recovery Partition (7.25 GiB partition).
Might have the Recovery Manager software on the 1st one, 1.46 GiB seems big for just diagnostics
Note that Windows doesn't show a file system type, like FAT or NTFS, so they probably have a non standard Type byte in the partition table. Since Windows doesn't recognize the file system, it will not be able to report the size used, so shows them as 100% free.

Happy Holidays!
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Old 12-22-2009, 01:51 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOutcaste View Post
Actually, it's the other way around, the hard drive manufacturers use Decimal. (Been hitting the Xmas Nog a bit early JC?)
Early? No... it's a requirement when I deal with non-hex numbers!

Thanks for catching that one - you are correct - 1 GB --> binary = 1000 MB; decimal = 1024 MB. I had them reversed... and more! Good point on the non-NTFS/non-FAT32 drive type as well. Disk Management would take issue with non-std format types.

THANK YOU !

Happy Holidays!!!!

JC

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