Tech Support Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Help with Surge protectors

6K views 49 replies 16 participants last post by  robarnold 
#1 · (Edited)
So last month after my brand new harddisk got lightning struck, (even when the pc had a separate grounding system), I'm thinking in investing in surge protectors. I chose two. One says has energy rating of 200 Joules and the other one has 714 Joules. But the later one is for 16amp plugs only. I use a ups too and I'm not sure what kind of plug it is. Manual long lost.
Also if I use a surge protector, where should I connect it? Between pc and ups or between mains and ups?
 
#4 ·
If you look at the owner's manual for your UPS, it most likely says you should not use it with a surge and spike protector.

IMO, you should just stick with a "good" UPS with AVR. Surge and spike protectors are little more than fancy and expensive extension cords.

BTW, it is not likely lightning took out your hard drive but left everything else okay. When it comes to the components in your computer, hard drives are actually pretty robust - much more so than your CPU, RAM or the motherboard itself. If only the hard drive failed, then it sounds like the HD just decided it was time to fail.

That does not mean a power failure did not corrupt the data on the drive - but the UPS should have prevented a power failure from shutting down the computer - assuming the UPS is sized right and the batteries are still good (they need replacing about every 3 years).
 
#7 · (Edited)
If you look at the owner's manual for your UPS, it most likely............still good (they need replacing about every 3 years).
Well the hdd was 3 months old wd blue series. After the lightning, I found the LAN card and the hdd dead...
If it was not the lightning, then it makes my new harddisk buying even more confusing. I thought this blue series will last longer than my previous green series with the fancy no-touch technology of wd. There was some problem with the grounding (old house), but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd. The PSU is not good but average. Now my pc runs on a live USB temporarily and I haven't experience any problem.
And the ups is mediocre and I changed the battery a year ago.
I can't figure out what else is the problem with the pc!

just want to note, nothing will protect your computer and devices from lightning.
God's wrath eh?

But unplugging helps: :rofl:
That day I was few minutes late to unplug I must confess. I naïvely thought the lightning will not harm it because of the new grounding system.
 
#9 ·
I found the LAN card and the hdd dead...
Well, lightning is still a mysterious phenomenon. Now that we know more than just the drive was taken out, I am more inclined to believe some surge took it out.

When you say the drive is dead, does the motor still spin?

If it was not the lightning, then it makes my new harddisk buying even more confusing. I thought this blue series will last longer than my previous green series with the fancy no-touch technology of wd.
I am not sure what you mean by that. Note that the Blue series is WD's "basic line" of SATA drives. That is not to suggest they are inferior, I am just saying that does not suggest they will last longer (or less) than Green.

but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd.
How? Did you have it tested? Did everything connected to this computer get power from the same outlet (thus with same "common ground")?

FTR, I urge every computer owner buy, or ensure access to a AC Outlet Tester to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart. And if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.
 
#12 ·
Well, lightning is still a mysterious phenomenon. Now that we know more than just the drive was taken out, I am more inclined to believe some surge took it out.

When you say the drive is dead, does the motor still spin?

I am not sure what you mean by that. Note that the Blue series is WD's "basic line" of SATA drives. That is not to suggest they are inferior, I am just saying that does not suggest they will last longer (or less) than Green.

How? Did you have it tested? Did everything connected to this computer get power from the same outlet (thus with same "common ground")?

FTR, I urge every computer owner buy, or ensure access to a AC Outlet Tester to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart. And if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.
"I am not sure what you mean by that. Note that the Blue series is WD's "basic line" of SATA drives. That is not to suggest they are inferior, I am just saying that does not suggest they will last longer (or less) than Green."

They claim this technology is available only in wd blue and black. And green is specifically made for archiving process (less writing).



How? Did you have it tested? Did everything connected to this computer get power from the same outlet (thus with same "common ground")?

No. It was, but then I called the electrician and made him make a totally new grounding/earthing wire drawn from the wall socket and connect with a new ironrod in ground. No other socket is connected to it. It is like dedicated for this socket only. Before that, I couldn't touch my computer case on a rainy day. Now I can touch the computer anytime. So I guess the power leak problem is solved. But still the lightning affected the lan card twice.
 
#10 ·
Ditto. Knowing that the Electrical Contractors hired by home builders use trainees to pull wire and do the final work, before I moved in, I tested and found most of the outlets were improperly wired. I'm color blind (partially), but I can sure tell when the white wire isn't hooked up to neutral. I lend my tester out quite often. I guess friends can't afford less than 10 bucks.
 
#13 ·
new ironrod in ground
I better be copper, not iron.

And also, you should make sure everything connected to your computer goes through this dedicated socket - that includes your monitors, printer, attached devices, network gear, etc. This will ensure they are all at the same "common ground".

No touch technology has nothing to do with enduring electrical surges and spikes.
 
#14 ·
I better be copper, not iron.

And also, you should make sure everything connected to your computer goes through this dedicated socket - that includes your monitors, printer, attached devices, network gear, etc. This will ensure they are all at the same "common ground".

No touch technology has nothing to do with enduring electrical surges and spikes.
It's not copper that I know. It's iron.

And everything goes into UPS and then the UPS goes into the dedicated socket.
 
#16 ·
Mine too. One is old like 20+ years and all the connections except mine goes there. Another one is new like few months and only connected to this socket. And both are inside the ground.

I told the electrician to put salt and ash too, he said it will wear off the earthing rod.
 
#19 ·
ADDITION; All houses should have 2 separate grounds as most U.S. code now requires. Mine are both in the ground. Some have 1 connected to a water pipe.
Two (or more) ground entry points but they should be connected together too - most likely at the service panel. You don't want two grounds at different potentials.

And most modern buildings don't connect to water pipes anymore because PVC piping is used.

And yes, copper clad - not solid copper. My bad. Iron core is fine because electricity flows to the outer edge of conductors - this is known as a the skin effect. But it should still be copper as iron is a relatively poor conductor.

Gdn8Melbourne said:
And everything goes into UPS and then the UPS goes into the dedicated socket.
Then you don't need a surge protector. If you look at the manual for your UPS, I am sure you will see not to use a surge protector with it. This is because surge protectors often reshape the sine wave which can confuse the UPS.
 
#20 ·
Two (or more) ground entry points but they should be connected together too - most likely at the service panel. You don't want two grounds at different potentials.

And most modern buildings don't connect to water pipes anymore because PVC piping is used.

And yes, copper clad - not solid copper. My bad. Iron core is fine because electricity flows to the outer edge of conductors - this is known as a the skin effect. But it should still be copper as iron is a relatively poor conductor.

Then you don't need a surge protector. If you look at the manual for your UPS, I am sure you will see not to use a surge protector with it. This is because surge protectors often reshape the sine wave which can confuse the UPS.
Hmm the UPS manual says not to connect any other surge protectors, but doesn't particularly say it has a surge protector. Btw, the UPS makes weird buzzing noise as long as it is on.
 
#21 ·
but doesn't particularly say it has a surge protector.
I have never seen one that didn't have sockets supported by the batteries plus sockets that were surge and spike protected.

What is the brand and model?

There are big transformers in UPSs - it is not uncommon for them to buzz.
 
#22 · (Edited)
UPS vs. Surge protection? Can we not have both?

I looked at a manual for an old Back-UPS ES-350, and it didn't say anything about using an external surge protector or not.

Then I looked at a manual for an old Back-UPS ES-750, and it says, "Plug the Back-UPS ES power cord directly into a wall outlet; not a surge protector or power strip."

No explanation. The best explanation so far is from Bill Bright who said "This is because surge protectors often reshape the sine wave which can confuse the UPS."

I can't relate to that. If the voltage doesn't get high enough to cause the surge-protecting components (MOVs -- metal oxide varistors) to conduct, then they are essentially out of the circuit and can't effect the sine wave.

I wonder if Bill might be thinking of UPSs. If the AC goes out and the UPS is supplying AC from its battery storage, they don't deliver a smooth sine wave. Instead, they "build" a quasi-sine wave out of tiny steps, which is like a sine wave with a high-pitched squeal superimposed on it. Things like old CRT TVs and I think some motors didn't like the stepped square wave. I think most things today with switching power supplies, like computers, peripherals, and things that are powered by wall transformers don't care if the sine wave is a total mess. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the stepped sine wave seems like less and less of a problem as we get more and more modern, except for some motors, and maybe compressors like in air conditioners.

And I also have a theory about the statement about "no surge protectors or extension cords." I think the UPS manufacturers have the same concern as air-conditioner manufacturers. They just want to avoid voltage drops in skinny extension cords and another set of problematic AC plugs and sockets. But both manufacturing industries could do us a favor and except that if we add a surge protector or extension cord that's rated 15 amps / 1875 watts, then it's not going to do anything to make the UPS or the air conditioner look bad.

Check your newegg.com for surge protectors -- highfalutin extension cords? I don't think so. You can get surge protection on these consumer products at least up to 4000 joules. The few-hundred joules of protection in UPSs are a joke, nothing more than something they can put on the pretty carton to give it more marketing appeal so you'll take it off the shelf. After all, if the other manufacturers are adding surge protection, then they better do it to, or it won't look good. But that's not really the business they're in, so they only give you a token few-hundred joules.

Getting down to brass tacks, my method has been to plug the surge protecting highfalutin extension cord into the wall first, and then plug the UPS into it.

Then, when the lightning bolt causes the MOVs to conduct, and the MOVs short the megawattage to ground, the surge of current for those few milliseconds will come out of the wall, go through the surge protector, and go back into the wall.

But if you plug the UPS into the wall first, and then plug the surge protector into the UPS, then when the lightning strikes and the MOVs conduct, the surge current will have to flow through the UPS -- which has some delicate electronics -- before it can get to the surge protector and be shorted back into the wall, and of course it will have to go through the UPS a 2nd time in the process.

You might ask, in the arrangement where the UPS is plugged into the wall first, what happens to the MOVs in the UPS if there's a surge? Since they are low-joule devices compared to what's inside the surge protector, they would smoke, depending on how harsh the surge is. And then if there is still surge-voltage after the UPS's MOVs have given up their ghosts, then the MOVs in the surge protector would take over. The burnt MOVs in the UPS would smell like fire, but their MOVs burning up would not affect their operation, since MOVs fail "open." Unless they really catch fire...

I've been plugging surge protectors into wall sockets and UPSs into surge protectors for 15 years, and the hardware has never complained. But that doesn't mean I haven't been lucky and that I truly am doing it wrong, so I'll brace myself if anyone cares to tell me where I went astray.

On a tangent, other advantages of the Belkin surge protecting highfalutin extension cords is that they include an integrated AC-wiring test, with an LED to alert you if the wiring is wrong. And they include another LED that alerts you if the MOVs have absorbed too many surges and are no longer firing at their specified voltage, and therefore the highfalutin needs to be replaced. In my barebone-basic UPSs that are almost (half) as old as I am, they don't have either LED function. So, if you're relying on the UPS for surge protection, how do you know that function is still good or not?

In summary, no matter how much lightning protection you build in, there are some lightning bolts that are bigger than any of us, and it won't matter what protection you've instituted -- everything will be vaporized. But lightning isn't the only source of surges, and not all lightning hits you directly in the head, so having as much Joule-protection as possible is obviously the best strategy, and you're not going to get that from the little MOVs they put in UPSs.

It occurs to me that there's another method that will make both sides of the argument happy. Consider that when the surge voltage hits and the MOVs short out momentarily, by definition of "short," the voltage across the MOV is zero, and therefore the voltage between those two wires is zero. If you have a short between two wires so their voltage is zero, then the voltage at the next AC wall-socket a few feet away is going to be really small. The point is that by plugging a surge protector into the wall, there's a whole sphere of house wiring around the highfalutin that is protected from surges.

So my strategy is that I put a 4000 joule surge protector on my computer station. And I put one on each television setup with all their associated delicate electronics. And I found an AC wall socket wired directly to the circuit breaker box in the basement -- I plugged a surge protector into it, even though I don't have anything down there to plug into the surge protector. But the intention is that any surges coming from outside or from any circuit will get stopped by that surge protector and won't be able to find their way to any other circuits. And I check the LED a few times a year to see if it needs to be changed yet. After a couple of years, it's still good. About four 4000 joule surge protectors scattered around the house, preferably on different circuits, should really keep the whole house protected, unless a lightning hits you in the head.

I finally had one surge protector out of a dozen go bad, according to its LED, after about 5 years. Maybe it was a manufacturing defect. Your mileage may vary if you're in a lightning capital like Florida or Kansas, where you might have them fail more frequently.

Oh yeh, my strategy for making everyone happy... Plug the surge protector into the top AC wall socket. Then, plug the UPS into the bottom AC wall socket. That way, you're following the letter of the law by "not using a highfalutin extension cord" on your UPS, and the UPS will enjoy true surge protection when the MOVs two feet away short out the surges.
 
#23 · (Edited)
For general surge protection, Tripp Lite has several very high quality units. Not cheap, $100 range. They work well; I can explain. There are also whole-house surge protection systems that attach to the breaker panel; I have a very old one.

Talk to an electrician about installing lightening protection to your breaker panel (distribution panel). They work. Sometimes lightening strikes a utility pole up the street and the surge comes into your house. That's when these work well.

Consider having your house lightening protected, especially if your house is the highest object around, or has metal antennas, etc., an expensive option that becomes inexpensive if you get hit.

The best option is to unplug your computer system during a lightening storm, a good reason to have a multi-outlet Tripp Lite device. I have strip outlets plugged into mine. I have no connection with Tripp Lite except as a consumer. (There are other lightening rules, like don't take a shower during a lightening storm, stay off the land line, etc. Lightening can strike 10 miles in front of a storm, before the rain comes!)
 
#25 ·
Nei1 said:
I can't relate to that. If the voltage doesn't get high enough to cause the surge-protecting components (MOVs -- metal oxide varistors) to conduct, then they are essentially out of the circuit and can't effect the sine wave.

I wonder if Bill might be thinking of UPSs.
I am afraid you misunderstood what I was saying. I should have been more clear.

That problem is not when your mains is supplying a perfect 110VAC sine wave. As you noted, the MOVs are essentially out of the circuit at that point. The problem is when a surge or spike comes through that is above the threshold of the MOV trigger point, the MOV "clamps" the waveform, in effect, it just chops off the tops (peaks) of the wave form. It does not "regulate" the voltage as surge and spike protectors are "passive" devices - not "intelligent". The resulting chopped wave form can be seen by the UPS as very "dirty", signaling the UPS to kick over to batteries when the surge and spike protector is on the UPS input side.

So what happens (and what I said - or should have said) is that will force the UPS to kick over to batteries needlessly and much more often than it should because without the surge and spike protector, the UPS' AVR, which are "active" ("intelligent") devices, would have just cleaned up the waveform and not needed the batteries to kick in.

It is a fallacy to assume having a UPS and a surge and spike protector offers better protection - assuming you use a "good" UPS with AVR. You don't need a surge and spike protector when you have a "good" UPS with AVR.

Nei1 said:
And I also have a theory about the statement about "no surge protectors or extension cords."
Who said "no extension cords"? I never said that. In fact, I have said if you need more outlets, use an extension cord on the UPS output and NOT a surge and spike protector. But for sure, don't use cheap 20awg cord either. I currently have a short, heavy duty extension cord connected to my UPS to connect the big, space hogging power blocks for my network devices and USB hub.

Check your newegg.com for surge protectors -- highfalutin extension cords? I don't think so.
Yes. Highfalutin rip offs! As I said, a surge and spike protector is little more than a fancy and expensive extension cord.

What happens when an "excessive" surge or spike comes through a surge and spike protector? Its circuit breaker trips and your computer comes crashing down, along with your network potentially destroying your data and corrupting your hard drive! :frown: :angry:

What happens when a dip (opposite of spike) or (sag opposite of surge) or brown out (long duration sag) comes through your surge and spike protector? Extra strain and stress (and the associated heat) is put on the power supplies and regulator circuits for your computer, monitor and network gear. :frown:

What happens when an "excessive" dip or sag or brown out (below 90/180VAC) comes through your surge and spike protector? Your computer comes crashing down, along with your network potentially destroying your data and corrupting your hard drive! :frown: :angry:

So for many high voltage anomalies, surge and spike protectors have limited capabilities, and for low voltage anomalies, even the best surge and spike protector is totally useless and a waste of money. But a "good" UPS, on the other hand, will take those anomalies in stride with aplomb and automatically regulate the voltage with their intelligent circuits and/or cutover to battery backup when those anomalies are extreme or long lasting.

As for "whole house" protectors natucketbob mentions, those are great for excessive high-voltage events coming off the grid, but again, they do absolutely nothing for low-voltage anomalies.

And it must be remembered that not all anomalies originate from the grid. Air conditioners, refrigerators, microwave ovens, and $15 1500W hair dryers can introduce anomalies into the circuit too - especially if faulty.

nantucketbob said:
The best option is to unplug your computer system during a lightening storm
Absolutely true! Nothing can protect you from a direct lightning strike but total isolation.

This would be a good time to mention that the house-ground has to be in good shape, so surge currents from surge protectors can be sunk effectively.
Excellent point and why I recommend every home and computer user should have access to a AC Outlet Tester to ensure your outlet is properly wired and grounded. I recommend one with a GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupt) indicator as it can be used to test bathroom and kitchen outlets too. These testers can be found for your type and voltage outlet, foreign or domestic, at most home improvement stores, or even the electrical department at Walmart. And if a fault is shown, have it fixed by a qualified electrician.
 
#27 ·
GFI

GFI compares the current coming out of the Hot wire to the current going back into the Return (Neutral) wire.

If the Return is missing some electrons, the assumption is that they are off electrocuting someone, so the GFI switches off.

That's an entirely different function than:
a) voltage surge protection, and
ii) overcurrent protection (circuit breaker)

-n-
 
#30 ·
There was some problem with the grounding (old house), but I made a new grounding just for the pc before installing the hdd.

Are you a licensed electrician or do you know one? As a utility worker I can say that I have run into many problems with people who have grounded their home. A copper main that person has grounded their house to, remove the water meter and all of a sudden you have a hot copper pipe at 120VAC. Does your wall outlets have a three prong or a two prong plug? I agree with others your UPS should have sucked up the surge.
 
#32 ·
The subject of grounding, (earthing) is greatly misunderstood, it is assumed by the less-knowledgeable to be simple, well, it's not. Faulty grounding is responsible for many 'mysterious' problems in electronic systems. The concept of multiple grounding rods is acceptable ONLY if all of the rods are solidly connected together in parallel using connectors individually capable of safely passing the maximum expected fault current. Ideally the connectors and rods should be connected in a star configuration with the contact point to the loads as a single point at the centre of the star. This may sound simple, but there are many complexities hidden in that simple statement.

The average house electrician has very little idea about building a good grounding system. Nor does the average builder want to spend the money to do a good job that will give satisfactory performance over a long period. Remember, the lowest bidder gets the job!

Skin effect is not a consideration at a.c. supply frequencies, hopefully you do not have R.F. on your a.c.power grounding network. The depth of current penetration into a conductor is inversely proportional to the applied frequency; the higher the frequency, the less the penetration of the current into the conductor. Yes, at modern CPU clock frequencies it is a major design consideration on circuit boards of any very high frequency electronics. I worked on radar systems as an R&D engineer for many years and I can assure you that RF grounding in high power systems is a speciality all on its own.

The major reason for having copper plating on an iron grounding rod is to prevent corrosion of the rod surface, iron and steel corrode rapidly in moist soil, the corrosion products (rust) on the surface of the rod are a poor electrical conductor, if the soil is not damp, then your grounding system is not going to work well. if you live in an area with a very dry climate, e.g the USA South West or similar, then it is a good idea to water the area around your ground rods, say once a week. You don't need potable water, a bowlful of used dish-washing water will work just fine.

Some simple rules:

DO NOT daisy-chain grounding connections.
All grounding connectors must terminate at the same point, that point must be connected directly to the system ground reference.
Ensure that grounding connectors can safely pass the maximum likely fault current.
PLEASE, NO twisted wire connections, intermittent conductivity will lead to some really interesting fault finding sessions.
Buy and use an a.c. outlet tester, they are inexpensive and simple to use by the unskilled. You might save yourself an unpleasant experience.

Buy or borrow a digital multimeter, (Go to Harbor Freight, cheap and good enough hand held DMM for a few dollars.) Measure the resistance between the grounding points on your equipment and the single point where ALL of your equipment grounds terminate, (hopefully), if you get more than 1 or 2 ohms, you need better grounding cable. If you don't know how to do this kind of measurement properly, find a knowledgeable friend familiar with electrical measurements.

I hope this mini dissertation helps.
 
#33 ·
Good comment though I disagree with this,
The major reason for having copper plating on an iron grounding rod is to prevent corrosion of the rod surface
The main reason for having copper plating is copper is a great conductor, iron and steel are not in comparison. And skin effect indeed is why you can have copper "plating" instead of solid copper grounding rods.

I also agree multiple rods should be connected together. I said that is "most likely at the service panel" because that is typically where it is done. But they should also be connected directly together and not just at the service panel. But as you noted, the lowest bidder likely did the work.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I can absolutely agree about using a WHOLE HOUSE Surge Protector... they cost so LITTLe (Less than $200, in some cases) and can protect your WHOLE house's electronics upto 50 kA spikes or more (about 100,000-250,000 Joules protection), even the heavy draw stuff like AC, Refridgerator, Stove's and Clothes dryers electronics at the same time.

Most houses today have modern Kitchen and Laundry appliances that are full of electronics... these, too, can be hurt by electrical surges and spikes - not just your computers and stereo's. A whole house Surge protector is amazingly cheap compared to having to buy one of those appliances. And if you check your current warranties for these electronics-rich Appliances - they are NOT covered for damage from Electrical Surges and SPIKES!

If you're mildly handy, and can TURN OFF the power coming into your electrical panel, THEN you can wire in your own Whole House Surge Protector - all it takes is 3 or 4 wires (2 to existing circuit breakers, and one or two to GROUND). Once you're done with the wiring, Turn Power back on and you're DONE! Or you can hire an electrician to do it.. it's only about 10 minutes of work.

And As for plugging in a UPS... Most literature says you can now plug in a UPS Into a SURGE protector... it's the best way. A surge Protector to protect against SPIKES and a UPS to protect against BROWN Outs (Low Voltage dips).

I put one in about 7 years ago and have NOT lost one electronic item in all that time... and I live in a Lightning prone area, atop a hillside community. We get lighting hits nearby at least once a week... so I can attest to their effectiveness. Previously I lost at least 1 portable phone or other electronic item each storm season, for the first 3 years we lived here. The last item lost was rather expensive so I figured I had to do something about it!

I set out to protect myself and my family from future power issues - So I now have a Whole House Surge protector (Intermatic) and all 3 computers and 3 TV's are plugged into their own UPS's (One per TV, Computer and 1 per Living room lamp for endurance during blackouts and temporary power outtages). Yes, it's expensive but not really... considering we hardly notice a storm is in the area anymore... and we never see the living room lights flicker during power outtages (everything stays on for hours after we lose power).

I recommend the INTERMATIC PANEL GUARD (#IG1240RC3), it's rated for Type 1 & Type 2 Surge protection, and works for either 120v or 240v - That's important because that means you can connect to protect everything connected to your electrical panel, whether you use 120 volt or 240 volt . It mounts under panel (if your panel is outdoors - or you can get one to fit inside with a kit), so you can see the Lit up LED that says it's still Protecting your equipment and comes with a 5 year warranty.

Whatever one you get, get it soon!
 
#41 ·
I can absolutely agree about using a WHOLE HOUSE Surge Protector... they cost so LITTLe (Less than $200, in some cases) and can protect your WHOLE house's electronics upto 50 kA spikes or more (about 100,000-250,000 Joules protection), even the heavy draw stuff like AC, Refridgerator, Stove's and Clothes dryers electronics at the same time.

You might want to contact your local electricity supply company and enquire whether or not they can and will install a heavy duty surge and spike protector at the input to the electricity meter feeding your house.
My local supplier is Avista and I had such a device installed by them many years ago, with complete success I might add. No problems, no blown up electrical and electronic equipment. Prior to that installation we experienced major damage to some of our equipment during a thunderstorm whist we were away from home.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top