Better late than never

v-six · 11-29-2005, 08:50 AM

I've been deliberating about what to write about in lesson #1, and decided I give you all a little homework.

I did it too, I'm not above the law!
First of all, I want to give everyone a disclaimer: I've got a pretty broad background in Graphic Design, so I'll be covering alot of ground over time. Most likely, you will be getting into some subjects that you didn't know you cared about. I won't be talking about much of any image editing in my posts.. If that's what you're here to learn, let me know so that I'm not wasting everyone's time. Now then... the homework:
White space, a.k.a. negative space. This is important in design no matter what you're doing. In print, it is crucial. On the web, small changes in spacing make the difference between a great and not-so-great layout. Imagine if everytime you went to a website the body text was set flush with the margin, or if you were reading a book where the words went straight to the edge of the page. There would be no visual buffer, and your poor thumbs would have nowhere to rest. Or maybe there is so much white space on the page that the content looks puny. I want to get everyone thinking consciously about this.
Your homework, if you choose to do it:
Find a quote you like, shouldn't be more than a sentence or two. Typeset it in whatever program you like. If you don't have anything, The GIMP should do. Here's the specifications:
No proprietary filters/effects
Grayscale
No importing images, everything but the quote should be your own.
Background color should be white
Not a standard image size. I.E. not 800 x 600, 1024 x 768, 8.5 in x 11, etc. Don't just pick a random size though, set the final size after you've set the quote, this way you can focus on the white space and how it relates to your content.
If you have any questions, please ask!

Here's mine, feel free to pick at it. If you say awful things about it, then I know you're paying attention.

**devil lady** · 11-29-2005, 08:38 PM

Not sure if this is what you had in mind?

**DumberDrummer** · 11-29-2005, 09:34 PM

I like this quote, personally. A lot of the tongue in cheek stuff he said after he did all the science.

v-six · 11-29-2005, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devil lady

Not sure if this is what you had in mind?

Right on.

Chevy · 11-30-2005, 01:08 AM

It's 3 am ... Don't know why I'm still up ....

v-six · 11-30-2005, 03:32 AM

ok, now that we've got a few pieces to look at, I'd like to start talking about them. Anyone that would like to be exempt from having their work talked about, speak now or... well, you know.
There won't be any this is good, this is bad, it's just good to have things to use as jumping-off points.
Also, this is a pretty good opportunity to hit on some points in typography, if everyone would prefer not hear it, this is also your time to speak

**koala** · 11-30-2005, 07:49 AM

Three attempts at the same quote.

1... 2 lines, bold typeface, lowercase, aligned to the left, no kerning, Dr Seuss placed in lower right to give a literary look.

2... 4 lines, central alignment, space between lines reduced, punctuation removed, lots of white space. Each line adjusted using horizontal scaling and charcter tracking. Need some advice on how to do this better.

3... Text positioning relates to contents of phrase. Breaks up the flow when reading. Signature moved to bottom left to balance out the black area in top right and complete the triangular shape. Light grey quotation marks blurred, enlarged and positioned slightly outside the viewing area.

**koala** · 11-30-2005, 09:41 AM

Some quick comments -

SixShooter, I like the font you chose for Voltaire, it looks classy and traditional. Good spacing of the letters. The white V on a rectangle works well, I like how it drops below the line. What's it called when they illustrate the first capital on a page, like in bibles and old documents? The dates are difficult to read... maybe a thin black outline or a darker rectangle? The text block is centrally positioned in a large white space... you could experiment with different positions.

Devil Lady, perfect font for romantic poetry. The black text really jumps out from the grey. Should the dates be touching the text above?

Chevy, I like the alignment of the 3 lines, creating a diagonal slant opposite to the direction of Decision. Makes it look dynamic. Good choice of font for the signature.

**devil lady** · 11-30-2005, 01:46 PM

I mainly did the dates like that to catch the fact he was only 39 when he died.

v-six · 11-30-2005, 02:00 PM

Koala, the word that you're looking for is drop caps. They came from illuminated manuscripts, which in medieval times got pretty intricate. In some of the old Celtic manuscripts, the first letter might take up an entire page.

Now for some comments..
Chevy & Devil Lady, try to be careful that your ascenders and descenders (tops & bottoms of letters) aren't touching the line above or below them, as Koala mentioned. If they are touching, make it look intentional. Look at the logo in my signature for an example. Not too many people would question whether the text overlapping was accidental or not. Devil Lady, the movement you put into the numbers is a great choice for the quote and author. I recommend exploring small caps/oldstyle figures for your numerals. They're basically the lower-case equivalent of 1234567890. They should be present in any font with the "Pro" suffix. Be mindful of your kerning, (the space between letters). If you want to change the vertical orientation of a letter without having to move it around manually, you can set the baseline shift in Photoshop. If you want to know how, I'd be happy to elaborate.
Koala, your second version with 4 lines hit well on the awareness of white space that wanted everyone to be thinking of. Be careful about scaling letters though. It works with your content as there was just cause for scaling the text, but many designers/typographers consider it a "type crime" for various reasons. Consider yourself warned, that's one of the things a typophile might throw punches over

E-Liam · 11-30-2005, 04:37 PM

Hi,

I saw this earlier, but have been too busy today to enter my meagre effort until now. I've tried to get an essence for the quote, ie. repetetiveness without reason, and introduce it into the graphic.

The quote in all it's glory

Perhaps not original, but I tried to use fonts that expanded on the theme.. The insanity font was Milano Ultra Lite, to give a definition to the title, contrasting the theme with the boring text, along with the drop shadow and gaussian blur.. the Monospace Italic for the main text, to attempt to portray, and add to the monotony.. hence the eight lines of half the quote.. and the name/date in a basic italic for
?authenticity?

I would have liked to have used a touch of dark blue, angled to suit, in the bottom half; just to highlight.. but I wasn't allowed..

This was done in GIMP, which I've only had a chance to use for about a month, so if I bring you an apple teacher.. will you be nice. ???????

Nahh, didn't think so.

I found the best angle for insanity that I could, and I think it works, but the word spacing of the particular quote stopped me from acheiving the original idea of having the : on the end perfectly vertical.

God, this looks pretentious when proofing.

Cheers

Liam

**Spatcher** · 11-30-2005, 05:55 PM

Here is something I just did, and I had to do it in the Gimp instead of PSP7, it didn't/I didn't like text adding on it.

Chevy · 11-30-2005, 09:47 PM

Version 2 ... The idea came to me, so I went with it .... The arrow is multiple / and an arrowhead from the Wingdings font.

v-six · 12-01-2005, 08:44 AM

Now, for the meaning behind all of this.

The big question... If you had to print out your quote on a regular piece of white 8.5 x 11 or 11 x 17 paper, how would you want it to look? You would be allowed to print the quote in any position on the paper, and trim the paper to any size..

You aren't required to post any new files, but give it alittle thought at least. This is actually pretty relevent in the design business. Lets say you just designed the Nike Swoosh and "Just Do It." They want 1,000,000 flyers made with the new logo. No effects, just straight-forward swoosh and the words "Just Do It." They're corporate after all, simple is good. Do you just print it out on a letter size document and send them out? If you want to keep your job, no!

E-Liam · 12-02-2005, 06:01 AM

Hi Six,

just a quick question. Can anything else be added to the page apart from the quote? If no! then I'd print it with the paper trimmed to the height of the image plus 20mm or so, and the width around 2 1/2x that of the image, leaving all the space to the right, except a 20mm margin at the left.

If extras can be added.. an image and extra text for example, then I've got an idea.

Admittedly, when producing the image I gave no thought whatsover to your new question, which I guess was your point anyways..

Next time I will, promise!

I saw this yesterday evening and was stumped.. and still am to eb honest.

Cheers

Liam

v-six · 12-02-2005, 06:10 AM

Go nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E-Liam

Hi Six,

just a quick question. Can anything else be added to the page apart from the quote? If no! then I'd print it with the paper trimmed to the height of the image plus 20mm or so, and the width around 2 1/2x that of the image, leaving all the space to the right, except a 20mm margin at the left.

If extras can be added.. an image and extra text for example, then I've got an idea.

Admittedly, when producing the image I gave no thought whatsover to your new question, which I guess was your point anyways..

Next time I will, promise!

I saw this yesterday evening and was stumped.. and still am to eb honest.

Cheers

Liam

11-29-2005, 08:50 AM	#1 (permalink)
v-six Manager, Design Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: High Falls, NY Posts: 2,064 OS: OS X for mac, XP Pro for PC	Better late than never I've been deliberating about what to write about in lesson #1, and decided I give you all a little homework. I did it too, I'm not above the law! First of all, I want to give everyone a disclaimer: I've got a pretty broad background in Graphic Design, so I'll be covering alot of ground over time. Most likely, you will be getting into some subjects that you didn't know you cared about. I won't be talking about much of any image editing in my posts.. If that's what you're here to learn, let me know so that I'm not wasting everyone's time. Now then... the homework: White space, a.k.a. negative space. This is important in design no matter what you're doing. In print, it is crucial. On the web, small changes in spacing make the difference between a great and not-so-great layout. Imagine if everytime you went to a website the body text was set flush with the margin, or if you were reading a book where the words went straight to the edge of the page. There would be no visual buffer, and your poor thumbs would have nowhere to rest. Or maybe there is so much white space on the page that the content looks puny. I want to get everyone thinking consciously about this. Your homework, if you choose to do it: Find a quote you like, shouldn't be more than a sentence or two. Typeset it in whatever program you like. If you don't have anything, The GIMP should do. Here's the specifications: No proprietary filters/effects Grayscale No importing images, everything but the quote should be your own. Background color should be white Not a standard image size. I.E. not 800 x 600, 1024 x 768, 8.5 in x 11, etc. Don't just pick a random size though, set the final size after you've set the quote, this way you can focus on the white space and how it relates to your content. If you have any questions, please ask! Here's mine, feel free to pick at it. If you say awful things about it, then I know you're paying attention. __________________ mysql> --i-am-a-dummy Brewing up something good at vervesix...

11-29-2005, 08:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
devil lady Tech, Design Team Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 951 OS: XP SP2 My System	Not sure if this is what you had in mind? __________________ . HiJackThis Everest Home Edition Ad Aware Spybot S & D Ewido online scan Spyware Blaster

11-29-2005, 09:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
DumberDrummer Cymru am byth Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 5,364 OS: Windows XP Pro SP2 My System	I like this quote, personally. A lot of the tongue in cheek stuff he said after he did all the science. __________________ Living with Louie dog's the only way to stay sane _____________________________________________ ... and with those words so begins my lifetime of longing for the devil's warm embrace

11-30-2005, 01:08 AM	#5 (permalink)
Chevy Semi-Retired Manager, Microsoft Support Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Notlob Posts: 5,172 OS: Vista Ultimate My System	Well, maybe this will work It's 3 am ... Don't know why I'm still up .... __________________ “My philosophy, like color television, is all there in black and white” -M. Python

11-30-2005, 03:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
v-six Manager, Design Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: High Falls, NY Posts: 2,064 OS: OS X for mac, XP Pro for PC	ok, now that we've got a few pieces to look at, I'd like to start talking about them. Anyone that would like to be exempt from having their work talked about, speak now or... well, you know. There won't be any this is good, this is bad, it's just good to have things to use as jumping-off points. Also, this is a pretty good opportunity to hit on some points in typography, if everyone would prefer not hear it, this is also your time to speak __________________ mysql> --i-am-a-dummy Brewing up something good at vervesix...

11-30-2005, 07:49 AM	#7 (permalink)
koala Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 9,143 OS: XP/UBUNTU My System	Three attempts at the same quote. 1... 2 lines, bold typeface, lowercase, aligned to the left, no kerning, Dr Seuss placed in lower right to give a literary look. 2... 4 lines, central alignment, space between lines reduced, punctuation removed, lots of white space. Each line adjusted using horizontal scaling and charcter tracking. Need some advice on how to do this better. 3... Text positioning relates to contents of phrase. Breaks up the flow when reading. Signature moved to bottom left to balance out the black area in top right and complete the triangular shape. Light grey quotation marks blurred, enlarged and positioned slightly outside the viewing area. __________________ New members: Subscribe to your thread (Thread Tools) to receive an instant email notification when you get a reply. TSF Folding@Home Team 85015 - details here

11-30-2005, 09:41 AM	#8 (permalink)
koala Moderator Hardware Team Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 9,143 OS: XP/UBUNTU My System	Some quick comments - SixShooter, I like the font you chose for Voltaire, it looks classy and traditional. Good spacing of the letters. The white V on a rectangle works well, I like how it drops below the line. What's it called when they illustrate the first capital on a page, like in bibles and old documents? The dates are difficult to read... maybe a thin black outline or a darker rectangle? The text block is centrally positioned in a large white space... you could experiment with different positions. Devil Lady, perfect font for romantic poetry. The black text really jumps out from the grey. Should the dates be touching the text above? Chevy, I like the alignment of the 3 lines, creating a diagonal slant opposite to the direction of Decision. Makes it look dynamic. Good choice of font for the signature. __________________ New members: Subscribe to your thread (Thread Tools) to receive an instant email notification when you get a reply. TSF Folding@Home Team 85015 - details here

11-30-2005, 01:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
devil lady Tech, Design Team Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tasmania, Australia Posts: 951 OS: XP SP2 My System	I mainly did the dates like that to catch the fact he was only 39 when he died. __________________ . HiJackThis Everest Home Edition Ad Aware Spybot S & D Ewido online scan Spyware Blaster

11-30-2005, 02:00 PM	#10 (permalink)
v-six Manager, Design Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: High Falls, NY Posts: 2,064 OS: OS X for mac, XP Pro for PC	Koala, the word that you're looking for is drop caps. They came from illuminated manuscripts, which in medieval times got pretty intricate. In some of the old Celtic manuscripts, the first letter might take up an entire page. Now for some comments.. Chevy & Devil Lady, try to be careful that your ascenders and descenders (tops & bottoms of letters) aren't touching the line above or below them, as Koala mentioned. If they are touching, make it look intentional. Look at the logo in my signature for an example. Not too many people would question whether the text overlapping was accidental or not. Devil Lady, the movement you put into the numbers is a great choice for the quote and author. I recommend exploring small caps/oldstyle figures for your numerals. They're basically the lower-case equivalent of 1234567890. They should be present in any font with the "Pro" suffix. Be mindful of your kerning, (the space between letters). If you want to change the vertical orientation of a letter without having to move it around manually, you can set the baseline shift in Photoshop. If you want to know how, I'd be happy to elaborate. Koala, your second version with 4 lines hit well on the awareness of white space that wanted everyone to be thinking of. Be careful about scaling letters though. It works with your content as there was just cause for scaling the text, but many designers/typographers consider it a "type crime" for various reasons. Consider yourself warned, that's one of the things a typophile might throw punches over __________________ mysql> --i-am-a-dummy Brewing up something good at vervesix...

11-30-2005, 04:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
E-Liam Manager, On the Web Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bracknell, UK Posts: 929 OS: XP	A late entry Hi, I saw this earlier, but have been too busy today to enter my meagre effort until now. I've tried to get an essence for the quote, ie. repetetiveness without reason, and introduce it into the graphic. The quote in all it's glory Perhaps not original, but I tried to use fonts that expanded on the theme.. The insanity font was Milano Ultra Lite, to give a definition to the title, contrasting the theme with the boring text, along with the drop shadow and gaussian blur.. the Monospace Italic for the main text, to attempt to portray, and add to the monotony.. hence the eight lines of half the quote.. and the name/date in a basic italic for ?authenticity? I would have liked to have used a touch of dark blue, angled to suit, in the bottom half; just to highlight.. but I wasn't allowed.. This was done in GIMP, which I've only had a chance to use for about a month, so if I bring you an apple teacher.. will you be nice. ??????? Nahh, didn't think so. I found the best angle for insanity that I could, and I think it works, but the word spacing of the particular quote stopped me from acheiving the original idea of having the : on the end perfectly vertical. God, this looks pretentious when proofing. Cheers Liam __________________ My Mother suggested a family outing... so I told her Uncle Bob was gay. (Trevor D.) Never argue with an idiot! They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A member of the Alliance of Security Analysis Professionals since 2004.

11-30-2005, 05:55 PM	#12 (permalink)
Spatcher Henry Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,468 OS: XP Home SP2 My System	Here is something I just did, and I had to do it in the Gimp instead of PSP7, it didn't/I didn't like text adding on it. __________________ JohnThePilot: Cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon (a nation without a language is a nation without a heart) John Butler Trio: Go take a step outside, see what's shakin' in the real world - Good Excuse Paul Kelly: Just add a dollop of tomato sauce for sweetness and that extra tang - How to Make Gravy

11-30-2005, 09:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
Chevy Semi-Retired Manager, Microsoft Support Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Notlob Posts: 5,172 OS: Vista Ultimate My System	Version 2 ... The idea came to me, so I went with it .... The arrow is multiple / and an arrowhead from the Wingdings font. __________________ “My philosophy, like color television, is all there in black and white” -M. Python Last edited by Chevy : 11-30-2005 at 10:26 PM.

12-01-2005, 08:44 AM	#14 (permalink)
v-six Manager, Design Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: High Falls, NY Posts: 2,064 OS: OS X for mac, XP Pro for PC	Now, for the meaning behind all of this. The big question... If you had to print out your quote on a regular piece of white 8.5 x 11 or 11 x 17 paper, how would you want it to look? You would be allowed to print the quote in any position on the paper, and trim the paper to any size.. You aren't required to post any new files, but give it alittle thought at least. This is actually pretty relevent in the design business. Lets say you just designed the Nike Swoosh and "Just Do It." They want 1,000,000 flyers made with the new logo. No effects, just straight-forward swoosh and the words "Just Do It." They're corporate after all, simple is good. Do you just print it out on a letter size document and send them out? If you want to keep your job, no! __________________ mysql> --i-am-a-dummy Brewing up something good at vervesix...

12-02-2005, 06:01 AM	#15 (permalink)
E-Liam Manager, On the Web Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Bracknell, UK Posts: 929 OS: XP	Hi Six, just a quick question. Can anything else be added to the page apart from the quote? If no! then I'd print it with the paper trimmed to the height of the image plus 20mm or so, and the width around 2 1/2x that of the image, leaving all the space to the right, except a 20mm margin at the left. If extras can be added.. an image and extra text for example, then I've got an idea. Admittedly, when producing the image I gave no thought whatsover to your new question, which I guess was your point anyways.. Next time I will, promise! I saw this yesterday evening and was stumped.. and still am to eb honest. Cheers Liam __________________ My Mother suggested a family outing... so I told her Uncle Bob was gay. (Trevor D.) Never argue with an idiot! They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A member of the Alliance of Security Analysis Professionals since 2004. Last edited by E-Liam : 12-02-2005 at 06:02 AM.