Wow

bry623 · 06-30-2008, 10:24 AM

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...-clark-ta.html

C'mon Barrack, step up to plate and speak out against these comments.

**40sondacurb** · 06-30-2008, 02:26 PM

What is the difference between that and the Mccain attacks? Is anything involving the military diamond plated?

mommabear · 06-30-2008, 04:13 PM

What is it about McCain? He was in the military. He was a POW. So were a lot of other guys. That does not automatically qualify him to be President. That does not make him better than anybody else. He deserves just as much respect, but not more, than our troops serving now.

The problem is the term "hero" is over used these days. Sheesh!

**Drew1369** · 06-30-2008, 04:26 PM

Its not just those that qual... they don't. What quals him over Obama is the YEARS of public service to the nation... not the year

mommabear · 06-30-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...-clark-ta.html

C'mon Barrack, step up to plate and speak out against these comments.

Here ya go. Wasn't hard to find.

Quote:

Obama Defends McCain's Military Service
Ill. Senator Also Touts His Own Patriotism In Missouri Speech

INDEPENDENCE, Mo., June 30, 2008

(CBS/AP) Flanked by American flags, Barack Obama forcefully defended his patriotism Monday against anyone who would challenge it, declaring he wouldn't stand still for persistent loyalty rumors aimed at sinking his presidential campaign.

However, he was forced to interrupt his Fourth of July week event - at Harry Truman's old home in Independence, Mo. - to respond to Republican rival John McCain's complaint that it was actually Obama and his campaign who were wrongly questioning the importance of McCain's military service.

McCain said that "that kind of thing is unnecessary," and the Obama camp agreed.

Obama praised McCain's service, and the Democratic candidate's spokesman rejected Sunday's remarks from a prominent supporter, retired Gen. Wesley Clark, who said McCain's years as a Vietnam War fighter pilot and prisoner of war did not necessarily qualify him to be commander in chief.

Although Obama did not rebuke Clark by name, aides repeatedly said that Clark did not speak on behalf of the campaign, reports CBS News' Maria Gavrilovic. Obama spokesman Bill Burton released the following statement: "As he's said many times before, Senator Obama honors and respects Senator McCain's service, and of course he rejects yesterday's statement by General Clark.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4220128.shtml

bry623 · 07-01-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mommabear

Here ya go. Wasn't hard to find.

Except for he hadn't issued the comments when I made my first post.

Good for BHO.

mommabear · 07-01-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

Except for he hadn't issued the comments when I made my first post.

Good for BHO.

Well, maybe it was a difference in timezones.

I found some other interesting information while this brouhaha has been going on. Seems McCain perhaps doth protest too much regarding experience, especially military experience.

Quote:

Clark’s argument that military service is not sufficient alone to be president is an argument that has been made by McCain himself:

- During an interview with National Journal, John McCain was asked if “military service inherently makes somebody better equipped to be commander-in-chief.” McCain said, “Absolutely not…I absolutely don’t believe that it’s necessary.” [National Journal, 2/15/2003]

- I believe that military service is the most honorable endeavor an American may undertake. But I’ve never believed that lack of military service disqualifies one from occupying positions of political leadership or as Commander and Chief. In America, the people are sovereign, and they decide who is and is not qualified to lead us. [American Legion Speech, 9/7/1999]

- Earlier this year at Washington’s Gridiron Club, where humor is the required fare, McCain lay bare what underlies his candidacy. Wearing a jacket outlandishly festooned with dozens of fake military medals, McCain said, “The question I ask myself every morning while shaving in front of the mirror is: OK, John, you’re an incredible war hero, an inspiration to all Americans. But what qualifies you to be president of the United States?” [Minneapolis Star Tribune, 11/7/1999]

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/01/...ualifications/

John McCain: Changing The Definition Of “Experienced”

http://mccainsource.com/mccain_fact_check?id=0017

**Chode** · 07-01-2008, 03:38 PM

I think what we're seeing in this campaign is a voter perception that experiece may be a liability rather than an asset. I had a boss once who came as baggage from an acquisition, and he once took me aside and explained that he didn't know much about how our company did things, but as a former competitor, he knew everything we did was wrong, so my experience was just 15 years of accumulated incompetency and misjudgment. I think that's a fair description of voter attitudes right now.

And on that note, is the job situation OK, bry?

yustr · 07-01-2008, 05:35 PM

Let's take a short look at McCain's resume:

Son of an admiral who was the son of an admiral. Entered the Naval Academy at 18. Graduated and spent 21 years in the navy. Then moved to AZ and immediately entered politics. Has spent the last 26 as an elected official. So from the age of 18 to the age of 72 he's had one employer: the People of the US.

I have to ask: how does he claim to have any idea what life is like for the other 99% of us? He's never been poor. He's never had to pay a doctor's bill. He's never been laid off. He's never had to wait in line for an appointment. His housing has always been very nice and mostly tax payer paid. He's never wondered what he was going to have to give up for the money for his kids braces. He's never had the electric company call threating to turn off the power if the bill wasn't paid. He's never lived near anybody in different circumstance.

Some very commendable qualities, no doubt. But not much perspective.

**jgvernonco** · 07-01-2008, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

Let's take a short look at McCain's resume:

//He's never been poor.//

No, but he has been very hungry, and lived off of rice and bugs...

//He's never had to pay a doctor's bill.//

Those are called Veteran's Benefits...or health insurance...

// He's never been laid off.//

Most people don't have to "run" for their jobs, either.

// He's never had to wait in line for an appointment.//

I'm sure that the North Vietnamese healthcare was excellent.

// His housing has always been very nice and mostly tax payer paid.//

Yeah, I'll bet that life was a bowl of cherries at the Hanoi Hilton.

He's never wondered what he was going to have to give up for the money for his kids braces.

You're just ticked off because you didn't marry a beer heiress.

//He's never lived near anybody in different circumstance.//

ROFL!!!!

Some very commendable qualities, no doubt. But not much perspective.

Yep, JFK had the same problem. In fact, so did Edward. In fact, so did Hillary. In fact, so did Carter (another Annapolis boy, you know).

Uh oh...so did W.

I just wish that the "Junior Senators" would quit running for President and let the "Seniors" handle it.

qbawl · 07-02-2008, 12:41 AM

"I just wish that the "Junior Senators" would quit running for President and let the "Seniors" handle it."

Fortunately, that won't be the case during this election.

Unlike most of the people who post about this election, I think we have the best two nominees in many years. Though, I don't particularly like McCain's politics - especially concerning Iraq and the rest of the Middle East - I think he's a good, honest guy, and won't be horribly upset if he wins, as I was when Georgie beat Gore and Kerry.

As far as his military service is concerned, how can that be anything but positive when he may end up being Commander-in-Chief? Gen Clark was correct in his assessment of McCain's service, IMO, but he (McCain) served so long as a Navy officer and now has been a Senator for such a long time, I think he's got plenty of leadership experience. His choices, though, concerning the direction in which the country will head under his guidance, too closely resemble Georgie's own for my taste. Personally, I prefer change, and change in just about any way, IMHO, will be for the better. I believe the country will be better off with either man as President, than we are with our current fearless leader, so we'll all win one way or the other after this particular election.

yustr · 07-02-2008, 06:34 PM

Yup, he's just a normal guy like us.

LINK

**Chode** · 07-02-2008, 07:32 PM

Jg, it seems like a lot of your response to yustr's #9 post just gets back to rehashing McCain's days as a P.O.W. and really doesn't add anything substantive to the discussion about McCain's experience and particularly its value in fitting him for the Presidency.

I'm going to recycle one of my own posts here. It's about McCain's perceived character flaws and other issues that are going to prevent an old comrade in arms (who also spent more time as a P.O.W) from voting for John. http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859,00.html

Actually, though I have to say that you present a fairly good case on your own that experience may not be all it's sometimes cracked up to be. And I'm still going to stand by my earlier remark that experience is likely to be a liability in the upcoming election.

Edit: I just went to the McCain campaign site for some different info, and lo, there was a big headline still up on the site proclaiming how the Obama campaign "Attacks John McCain's Record of Service and Sacrifice." Guess they missed Obama's speech of 3 days ago: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4220128.shtml Maybe The Straight Talk Express intended to step up to the plate here, but the dishwasher was broken and there just weren't any clean ones to be had.

Really, Clark's remark is just another in a series of so many implusive, boneheaded remarks that have been common in the campaign so far. If emotions weren't running so high, a lot of these wouldn't have rated even a yawn. Though I still think Charlie Black's recent remarks are good for a major jaw drop and some big embarrassment.

**Chode** · 07-02-2008, 08:53 PM

I feel a tiny bit bad about harping on this issue but the McCain site is still accusing Obama of "repeated, shameless attacks on John McCain's military service,". I especially like the references to "repeated" attacks, though "shameless" should be good for about 85 points out of 100 on the Lie-O-Meter by itself. Some of you might wish to use the handy response form on the page to voice your opinion on this subject.

bry623 · 07-03-2008, 07:49 AM

I think McCain has more than earned the right to suckle off of the government teat. But let's be frank, the candidates will not attack each other personally, oh they may attack their records and stances, but never personally............ that's for the attack dogs.

Chode- job........... status quo for now, the dudes upstairs have got a new business model they feel comfy with, so I am playing the wait and see game.

mommabear · 07-03-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

I think McCain has more than earned the right to suckle off of the government teat. But let's be frank, the candidates will not attack each other personally, oh they may attack their records and stances, but never personally............ that's for the attack dogs.

Chode- job........... status quo for now, the dudes upstairs have got a new business model they feel comfy with, so I am playing the wait and see game.

If you're referring to the changes in the McCain team,

Quote:

The elevation of Steve Schmidt — who worked closely with Karl Rove — at Mr. McCain’s headquarters represented a sharp diminishment of the responsibilities of Rick Davis, who has been Mr. McCain’s campaign manager since the last shake-up nearly a year ago...

The move of Mr. Schmidt is the latest sign of increasing influence of veterans of Mr. Rove’s shop in the McCain operation....

Greg Jenkins, another veteran of Mr. Rove’s operation who is a former Fox News producer and director of presidential advance in the Bush White House, was hired by Mr. Schmidt last week after a series of what Mr. McCain’s advisers acknowledged were poorly executed campaign events ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25505302/

Did anybody really think that Rove would go silently into the night after he left the WH? Rove went to Fox. McCain has a former Fox producer and director now.

Obama was right to decline the Fed Election funds. We all know what's in store now.

bry623: "Don't be surprised to see Black go."
Top McCain Strategist Says New Terrorist Attack on U.S. Would Be Good For Campaign

And Charlie Black is still on board. Guess McCain didn't get that memo.

**Chode** · 07-03-2008, 05:19 PM

It's sad to see that Senator McCain's site still has a problem with this issue:

"Now, after repeated, shameless attacks on John McCain’s military service, Senator Obama has failed to personally repudiate them. Once again, Senator Obama has failed to fulfill his promise of change. Sadly, Senator Obama has seemingly been seduced by the politics as usual, the selfish politics of anything goes.

John McCain wants this campaign to be about the issues – a campaign that focuses on real solutions to the challenges facing our country. Unfortunately, Senator Obama and his campaign surrogates seem unwilling to engage in that conversation."

What a load! First of all, Obama did personally repudiate Clark's remarks. I won't recap the info again: Read The Fine Thread. Next, we are apparently expected to believe that any Obama supporters who voice an opinion, or maybe just anyone critical of McCain (those closet Obama supporters with their insidious propaganda are the worst) are now "campaign surrogates".

So, just so I'm clear on all the issues here, Obama is expected to disavow any anti-McCain statement made at any time, by any person; while it is fine for McCain's official site to continue to post lies about Obama that McCain's campaign knows to be lies?

I took advantage of the Tell Us What You Think response panel to say that "I am saddened and disappointed that even three days after Senator Obama's speech praising Senator McCain's service record, Senator McCain's web site continues to post inaccurate slurs about Senator Obama's position and documented public statements. I think such unwarranted slurs are unworthy of Senator McCain, and call into serious question his stated commitment to "run on the issues" and the candor and honesty of his campaign."

Strangely enough, his staff still hasn't emailed me with a job offer.

06-30-2008, 10:24 AM	#1 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,452 OS: winxp pro sp2	Wow http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/wash...-clark-ta.html C'mon Barrack, step up to plate and speak out against these comments. __________________ Scarlet and Gray in L.A. 9/13/08

06-30-2008, 02:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
40sondacurb #64 & #36 BACKBONE Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,701 OS: xp	Re: Wow What is the difference between that and the Mccain attacks? Is anything involving the military diamond plated? __________________ Donate to keep the forum running "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully" -George W. Bush Last edited by 40sondacurb : 06-30-2008 at 02:27 PM.

06-30-2008, 04:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
mommabear Registered User Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 257 OS: XP Home Sp2	Re: Wow What is it about McCain? He was in the military. He was a POW. So were a lot of other guys. That does not automatically qualify him to be President. That does not make him better than anybody else. He deserves just as much respect, but not more, than our troops serving now. The problem is the term "hero" is over used these days. Sheesh! __________________ YES WE CAN!

06-30-2008, 04:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
Drew1369 TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 2,158 OS: Vista Business	Re: Wow Its not just those that qual... they don't. What quals him over Obama is the YEARS of public service to the nation... not the year __________________ Marge: We wouldn't be in this trouble if you'd just paid the heating bill! Homer: I thought global warming would take care of it! Al Gore can't do anything right!

07-01-2008, 03:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 726 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Wow I think what we're seeing in this campaign is a voter perception that experiece may be a liability rather than an asset. I had a boss once who came as baggage from an acquisition, and he once took me aside and explained that he didn't know much about how our company did things, but as a former competitor, he knew everything we did was wrong, so my experience was just 15 years of accumulated incompetency and misjudgment. I think that's a fair description of voter attitudes right now. And on that note, is the job situation OK, bry? __________________ Sweet!

07-01-2008, 05:35 PM	#9 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore/California Desert Posts: 4,674 OS: PCLinuxOS, XP Pro My System	Re: Wow Let's take a short look at McCain's resume: Son of an admiral who was the son of an admiral. Entered the Naval Academy at 18. Graduated and spent 21 years in the navy. Then moved to AZ and immediately entered politics. Has spent the last 26 as an elected official. So from the age of 18 to the age of 72 he's had one employer: the People of the US. I have to ask: how does he claim to have any idea what life is like for the other 99% of us? He's never been poor. He's never had to pay a doctor's bill. He's never been laid off. He's never had to wait in line for an appointment. His housing has always been very nice and mostly tax payer paid. He's never wondered what he was going to have to give up for the money for his kids braces. He's never had the electric company call threating to turn off the power if the bill wasn't paid. He's never lived near anybody in different circumstance. Some very commendable qualities, no doubt. But not much perspective. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry

07-02-2008, 12:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
qbawl Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 273 OS: OSX/Linux/XP	Re: Wow "I just wish that the "Junior Senators" would quit running for President and let the "Seniors" handle it." Fortunately, that won't be the case during this election. Unlike most of the people who post about this election, I think we have the best two nominees in many years. Though, I don't particularly like McCain's politics - especially concerning Iraq and the rest of the Middle East - I think he's a good, honest guy, and won't be horribly upset if he wins, as I was when Georgie beat Gore and Kerry. As far as his military service is concerned, how can that be anything but positive when he may end up being Commander-in-Chief? Gen Clark was correct in his assessment of McCain's service, IMO, but he (McCain) served so long as a Navy officer and now has been a Senator for such a long time, I think he's got plenty of leadership experience. His choices, though, concerning the direction in which the country will head under his guidance, too closely resemble Georgie's own for my taste. Personally, I prefer change, and change in just about any way, IMHO, will be for the better. I believe the country will be better off with either man as President, than we are with our current fearless leader, so we'll all win one way or the other after this particular election. Last edited by qbawl : 07-02-2008 at 12:43 AM.

07-02-2008, 06:34 PM	#12 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore/California Desert Posts: 4,674 OS: PCLinuxOS, XP Pro My System	Re: Wow Yup, he's just a normal guy like us. LINK __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry

07-02-2008, 07:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 726 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Wow Jg, it seems like a lot of your response to yustr's #9 post just gets back to rehashing McCain's days as a P.O.W. and really doesn't add anything substantive to the discussion about McCain's experience and particularly its value in fitting him for the Presidency. I'm going to recycle one of my own posts here. It's about McCain's perceived character flaws and other issues that are going to prevent an old comrade in arms (who also spent more time as a P.O.W) from voting for John. http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859,00.html Actually, though I have to say that you present a fairly good case on your own that experience may not be all it's sometimes cracked up to be. And I'm still going to stand by my earlier remark that experience is likely to be a liability in the upcoming election. Edit: I just went to the McCain campaign site for some different info, and lo, there was a big headline still up on the site proclaiming how the Obama campaign "Attacks John McCain's Record of Service and Sacrifice." Guess they missed Obama's speech of 3 days ago: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4220128.shtml Maybe The Straight Talk Express intended to step up to the plate here, but the dishwasher was broken and there just weren't any clean ones to be had. Really, Clark's remark is just another in a series of so many implusive, boneheaded remarks that have been common in the campaign so far. If emotions weren't running so high, a lot of these wouldn't have rated even a yawn. Though I still think Charlie Black's recent remarks are good for a major jaw drop and some big embarrassment. __________________ Sweet! Last edited by Chode : 07-02-2008 at 07:51 PM.

07-02-2008, 08:53 PM	#14 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 726 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Wow I feel a tiny bit bad about harping on this issue but the McCain site is still accusing Obama of "repeated, shameless attacks on John McCain's military service,". I especially like the references to "repeated" attacks, though "shameless" should be good for about 85 points out of 100 on the Lie-O-Meter by itself. Some of you might wish to use the handy response form on the page to voice your opinion on this subject. __________________ Sweet!

07-03-2008, 07:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,452 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Wow I think McCain has more than earned the right to suckle off of the government teat. But let's be frank, the candidates will not attack each other personally, oh they may attack their records and stances, but never personally............ that's for the attack dogs. Chode- job........... status quo for now, the dudes upstairs have got a new business model they feel comfy with, so I am playing the wait and see game. __________________ Scarlet and Gray in L.A. 9/13/08