mimo2005

Gas hits national average of $4 for the first time
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...mYw2gD9163F780




Bush On $4 Gas: "I Hadn't Heard That"

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EKZOKxdxj4
or
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0...t_n_88907.html

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"Gutta cavat lapidem,
non vi sed saepe cadendo"

*Richard*

UK prices per LITRE:
UK Petrol Prices for
Sunday 8th Jun 2008
Avg. Min. Max.
Unleaded: 116.8p 112.8p 127.9p
Diesel: 130.1p 124.9p 142.9p
LRP: 122.5p 114.9p 130.9p
Super: 123.9p 115.9p 135.9p
LPG: 58.2p 49.9p 64.9p

£1 =$2 near enough.

We're all paying too much methinks!

EnglishPaul

The thing is that in Britain the duty on fuel (which is the majority cost) is intended to deter car use and low efficiency vehicles. And, like it or not, it is having that effect. So in some measure it is a success.
Due to our high duty, the government does have the ability to ride out even severe oil price increases by decreasing duty. So in that way we are not held to ransom over oil prices like the US is.

bry623

And for God's sake, could we please start trading oil in terms of the Euro? The dollar is too weak to trade oil in. You trade in Euors, the price of oil will go down by almost 1/2.

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Scarlet and Gray in L.A. 9/13/08

Wozer

you are right bry, part of the problem is certainly the weak $....

but let's face it, another part is the fact that speculators are making huge windfalls and are artificially raising the price/barrel....there is plenty of supply, so arguing this is a demand problem just doesn't work...too boot these 'investors' are able to borrow monies at very low rates right now and are able to finance their actions and make a huge profit....

and if those edited for profane language Israeli leaders would just shut their mouths about a probable attack against Iran then I'm sure that would help...a war of that magnitude would certainly make the cost of oil skyrocket...and do those nimrods really think they could win if they actually bombed Irans reactors?

they have NO damn reason...anybody with a whit of knowledge about nuclear weapons knows it is far more efficient and far cheaper to manufacture plutonium than it is to separate U-235 from the predominant isotope U-238....i.e. any real person would know its obvious the Iranians are trying to peacefully use nuclear energy....sheesh...now, if they start making Pu-239 that might be a different issue...even then in my eyes they have the right, as it is surely unfair that Israel has plenty of nukes which they are obviously using to bully others around with...hmmm...and that statement is not totally accurate, as they would have to nuke the whole Middle East to get away with that type of action....I think if they tried to use a couple of them they would end up being erased from the earth...and really, I don't think they have enough of them to pull it off...any use of such weaponry would just end up with the rest of the real world (note my use of the word real) supporting their destruction, and erased they would be

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*Richard*

Wozer,
I think some of your argument is missing the point of the thread _ ie price of fuel. The situation re: Israel and its neighbours is another issue personally I think Israel has 6 million reasons to worry about its security. The land on which it it built was rejected by Arab states as un usable in the 1920s-1940s. It 1948 Israel extended the hand of friendship to its neighbours and was promptly invaded. Everyone has their own view on this and I appreciate that you and I can talk things through. You are probably aware of the Northern Ireland 'Troubles' (Protestant and Catholic). A muslim wandered in to a strongly Catholic area of Belfast and was questioned by the paramilitaries as to whether he was a Catholic muslim or a Protestant muslim!
Jaw jaw is better than war war, but getting people with strongly held opposing views to get together and talk is the real problem. But here, at least there is a way to exchange views in a relaxed manner.

Richard

Wozer

I get the point of the thread entirely...and I think you need to pay attention to the news http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080610/...iran_israel_dc

the information I gave above is entirely relevant as any attack against Iran is going to make the price of oil skyrocket...I made the argument that the cr@p being spread across the world about Iran using their present program for nukes is a lie...

how about a more simple anecdotal argument...

we, the US, dropped 2 nukes on Japan to win the war...the first was a uranium device and was untested...they couldn't test it because they barely had enough to make that weapon...the second was a plutonium device, which was tested in the desert of New Mexico...and there was enough to be working on a third at the end of the conflict...now simple research of the Manhattan project shows that an ungodly amount of money was spent on the separation of U-235 from U-238...this part of the project was started early on...it was later they decided to try and make a Pu-239 weapon....in far less time, and with far less money spent, ~3x Pu-239 was created compared to the amount of U-235 separated....it is plainly obvious that any country really trying to create a nuclear weapon is going to create plutonium as opposed to enriching uranium...

sooooo....all this talk about invading Iran based upon the fiction of their nuclear program being for weapons is baseless...its a lie, just as the WMD's Bush(less) said Iraq had was a lie...this lie is driving the price of oil up, and that is a fact...and any war based upon this lie will make the price go through the roof instantaneously....

yes, the issue re: Israel being in the middle east is an issue in and of itself, but their rattling of swords is directly affecting the price of oil...

do you get where I am coming from now?

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Beware of the big 3 insurance companies in Texas! Read your policies carefully (maybe you'll need a lawyer) and enjoy the 6% increase in your rates you are about to receive from Allstate, Farmers & State Farm for most likely reduced coverage

Chode

Well, that's a sad commentary on the dollar, bry. But even if it happened, it wouldn't matter because we'd still be buying Euros with Dollars.

When oil prices are discussed, let's not forget that the same companies that refine oil are often the same companies that produce it. That's why oil companies are making record profits. Generally, if a manufacturer has higher costs for raw materials, they might pass some of the costs along to the consumer, but they still feel the squeeze of the old fashioned price/demand curve. Oil companies today are pretty much exempt from this. There really isn't much competition in any meaningful sense. That's why I still oppose relaxing drilling regulations in areas like the Artic Wildlife Refuge. Of course the oil industry want us to believe this would translate into lower gas prices. Personally, I just see it as more huge profits with no relief at the pump.

So much talk about oil prices focuses on the Middle East, that most people seem to assume that's where virtually all our imports come from. That isn't true at all, and here's a nifty chart to break it down for you.

Now what just happenend in Congress? Well, predictably the Republicans blocked a Democratic initiative to raise taxes on oil companies, and to set som limits on the profits made by speculators. The story is here in the Washington Post. The money collected would have gone to an R&D fund dedicated to reducing U.S. dependence on non-renewable energy sources. One generally overlooked provision of the bill was that oil companies who invested the equivalent amount in home grown R&D to develop alternative energy resources wouldn't have to pay the tax.

Ultimately, one of the deal breakers was the Republican opposition to fiscal responsibility. They seem to have a deep seated aversion to "pay as you go" policy.

"Republican leaders said they were taking a stand against pay-as-you-go budget rules that automatically assume federal spending will increase from year to year but force lawmakers to make up lost revenue through tax increases or spending cuts when tax cuts expire.

"We don't believe philosophically that in order to extend existing tax policy you should use that to raise taxes on others," McConnell said."

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Sweet!

EnglishPaul

I've never understood how a comodity gets traded in a certain currency. Why isn't oil sold in the currency of the producing country?

I do agree with Chode that the price of oil would be unaffected by more oil fields at the moment. And the taxing scheme mentioned sounds like it would have been a good one.

I think the middle east contributes to bigger issues than oil price. I'm sure it does have an effect, but I think it is more used as an excuse by the greedy.

Nuclear power and electric cars are the way forward; and the generated nuclear material could be refined and made into bombs which could be sold to rich arab states at great cost to get some of the lost money back. Since no one ever uses nuclear weapons, there is no real need for them to actually work as who would know, so America could sell dudd nukes thoughout the world.

*Richard*

I think hydrogen powered cars and dud nukes are the way forward.

Drew1369

Putting a tax on oil company profits would just make the oil companies raise the prices so they can cover their tax loss... taxing is not the answer. It never is in this country... look at the advancments in everything in this country. When the lightbulb was invented and kerosene lamps were no longer needed but the breakthru with the horseless carriage required the kerosene refiners make something different. Samething with the computer... do you think taxing the profits of intel or IBM because they are becoming slowing in producing new technology and making money off the current product will make them strive to continue in their own R&D dept?

<The Congressional Research Service has analysed that the windfall profit tax brought in $80 billion in extra revenues for the United States government, which was far less than the projected $393 billion.> This was during the 1980 "windfall" tax on the oil companies.

What do you think will happen again?

Why do people seem to believe that taxing is the answer... a company got a huge return on an investment... so the government punishes them by taking it away.


<Windfall profit
A controversial concept, often used by politicians to justify imposing a TAX on PROFIT that in theory is earned unexpectedly, through circumstances beyond the control of the company concerned, and is thus deemed undeserved and ripe for the taking by the tax authorities. As the profits were neither expected nor a result of the efforts of the firm, taxing them should not harm the firm’s incentives to maximise future profits. The problem comes when greedy politicians start claiming that profits are windfalls when in fact they are deserved and expected. Then taxing them sends a signal to FIRMS that they should not try too hard to make profits, as if they do too well they will not get to keep the profits anyway. If this became widely believed, effort would probably decline and economic GROWTH would be slower.>

http://www.economist.com/research/Ec...#windfallgains

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simpswr

For some historical perspective, in the 60's and into the 70's, Middle Eastern ( basicly Saudi, Libya, Iran and Dubai ) Oil was denominated in Pounds Sterling . . and the exchange rate was in the $2.60 range . . At some point, the Pound could no longer take the pressure, and crude sales changed to being denominated in USD.

Over time, the exchange rate gradually lowered to a high ( in USD terms ) of $1.05, before gradually climbing to the current $2 (approx)

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Rich



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Chode

Drew, I think the big question about oil profits is about how much collusion, price-fixing, etc. may be going on, and also the question about how all the recent mergers have effected the competitive climate. I doubt anyone (maybe outside of some board rooms) really knows the real story, but I've seen the oil companies working first hand to influence prices by distorting the truth of the supply situation.

I worked on the Gulf Coast on towboats pushing gas, diesel, lube oil, you name it; and I was there during the 1979 Oil Embargo. What a joke!. Storage tanks all along the coast from Exxon Baytown to Texaco Port Arthur were as full as they could get, and there were supertankers (as well as plenty of smaller 750-800 ft tankers) sitting off shore waiting to unload. As soon as the price hit a nice high number, oil started flowing. Tankers carried oil from the supertankers in the Gulf just as fast as they could load and unload, and we met some of these tankers at various anchorages along the Intracoastal Canal and up and down area rivers to let them discharge cargo to our barges because they couldn't get dock space. And of course, all this was happening while the embargo was still in place.

I think oil companies are more firmly in control of pricing than ever. But anyway, if you think that the U.S. needs to spend more money to develop and exploit alternatives to fossil fuels (and I do) how are we going to pay for the R&D? I believe Exxon spends around one tenth of one percent of its current profits in developing renewable resources. (I can't assure you this figure is correct because I can't find the citation right now, so I may be mistaken). So, who's footing the bill? Well, actually the American people. C'mon! If you oppose taxing the rich, what's your alternative? Should we adopt the model used by the French and Russian Monarchies?

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Sweet!

mimo2005

Mission Accomplished,eh?

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"Gutta cavat lapidem,
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