Cheney On Two-Thirds Of The American Public Opposing The Iraq War: ‘So?’» - Page 2

**EnglishPaul** · 03-22-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simpswr

. . . and your more perfect solution is . . .

I've not looked into it, but I heard a radio show on China and apparently China is not necessarily looking to western models to use to develop their country. One example of this is democracy. The analogy given was that in the west it is like choosing a restaurant for the type of food, but the chef then gets to decide the meal you have, whereas in China they will always have the same chef, but they get to choose what is on the menu.
Now I'm not interested in a one party communist situation, but if they can make a system for their needs, it may better suit ours too.

Personally I am far more interested in the idea of referendum politics. In earlier ages not everyone was educated, and it was difficult to have a vote. But now we are far better educated, and computers provide a very easy way for us to vote on any (or every) given topic. Then instead of my wishes being represented by someone who probably doesn't know my wishes, my wishes are stated by me in a vote.

Oh, and Wozer, as for the bizarre nature of the right to bear arms: a government commanding the American army is highly unlikely to be deposed by a collection of citizens with guns! Perhaps it could when the constitution was written, but not now. And I also find it bizarre that the event of the government becoming corrupt is taken as a fate de complis. We have had a stable democracy for a very long time without ever seeing the depth of corruption you fear. And we don't have guns by our beds to see that our politicians keep on the right path.

**sobeit** · 03-22-2008, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simpswr

Ahhhh . .the evil Cheney . .

not really, hes just spouting the party line. Gotta agree with the commander in chief if you want to keep your job.

Tumbleweed36 · 03-23-2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

I've not looked into it, but I heard a radio show on China and apparently China is not necessarily looking to western models to use to develop their country. One example of this is democracy. The analogy given was that in the west it is like choosing a restaurant for the type of food, but the chef then gets to decide the meal you have, whereas in China they will always have the same chef, but they get to choose what is on the menu.

I don't know where that analogy came from, but nothing could be further from the truth and that is not how a resturaunt works in the USA. You choose the resturaunt and you choose from a long list of items they serve from what is on the menu. That menu is determined by market demand, otherwise, they make the menu according to what is demanded by customers who eat there. Therefore, that menu is customer driven and not chef driven. If they don't serve what customers want, they go out of business and the resturaunt who has items that people want stays in business.(called free enterprise) No resturaunt has the same menu and menu's change all the time according to the wants of the comsumers.

Now I'm not interested in a one party communist situation, but if they can make a system for their needs, it may better suit ours too.

If they can make a system that fits the needs of their populace, then that is fine. However, if they make a system on the DICTATES of one person (dictatorship), then they are actually slaves and not free people. Frankly, I don't give a tinker's damn what they do in China for their system, but do hope that people in China will be FREE to choose and not be dictated to by one person which is happening now in that country.

Personally I am far more interested in the idea of referendum politics. In earlier ages not everyone was educated, and it was difficult to have a vote. But now we are far better educated, and computers provide a very easy way for us to vote on any (or every) given topic. Then instead of my wishes being represented by someone who probably doesn't know my wishes, my wishes are stated by me in a vote.

Aha, we agree on something.

Oh, and Wozer, as for the bizarre nature of the right to bear arms: a government commanding the American army is highly unlikely to be deposed by a collection of citizens with guns! Perhaps it could when the constitution was written, but not now.

What makes you think the right to bear arms has to do with plotting to overthrow an army or government who you do not like or agree with? The guns I own (yep, do have a few) are for personal protection, (against idiots), hunting, to protect against criminals (you have those too), and for personal freedom. As you know in your country, only the criminals have guns when normal citizens and individuals are not permitted to have them. Now, don't tell me that criminals don't have guns in your country, I know better. There are many other ways to kill people rather than guns, so why doesn't your country ban all those methods too?

And I also find it bizarre that the event of the government becoming corrupt is taken as a fate de complis. We have had a stable democracy for a very long time without ever seeing the depth of corruption you fear. And we don't have guns by our beds to see that our politicians keep on the right path.

If you look at your country, we don't have any more or less government corruption than your country. Well, maybe some more, because we are so much larger than your country, so by sheer numbers, we might have more. I know from your statement that you don't know much about our country. Politicians (we do have guns as a personal freedom) don't get shot in our country any more than a country like yours. They are simply voted out of office like we are doing during this year. If I am not mistaken, your country does the same thing. We simply do not have guns for the sole purpose of shooting political leaders or military officers.

Sorry, but you have really missed the boat someplace on this issue.

Hey, have a great day and enjoy the weekend.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-23-2008, 09:52 AM

Good reply. On the gun issue, I took my facts from a previous thread on gun control. I never would have guessed that guns were a tool to stop government tyranny; I always thought they were just a comfort for people with small wieners.

And I never said America was corrupt. I just found it interesting that the writers of the constitution thought that it would become so. It hasn't yet, and if it did guns would not help.

The restaurant analogy wasn't mine, and does break down in places, but it illustrates a concept. Perhaps in time China will have ideas to give us.
I don't think that dictators have to be bad, just that inevitably they are. But if China can make a dictatorship democratic somehow, then how much better would it work in the west!

But if two thirds of Americans can oppose something, and the politicians do it anyway, then you have to ask how well democracy is working.

**simpswr** · 03-23-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sobeit666

not really, hes just spouting the party line. Gotta agree with the commander in chief if you want to keep your job.

. . yeah . . but who is the true Comander here . . Bush or CHeney?? . . I personally beleive it is Cheney . . and for that, I thank my lucky stars . .

**simpswr** · 03-23-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

But if two thirds of Americans can oppose something, and the politicians do it anyway, then you have to ask how well democracy is working.

Simple . . you vote them out of office . . which is what is about to happen

~~Wozer~~ · 03-23-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

Good reply. On the gun issue, I took my facts from a previous thread on gun control. I never would have guessed that guns were a tool to stop government tyranny; I always thought they were just a comfort for people with small wieners.

you phrase that incorrectly (and...um...well rather offensively)....guns are of great comfort to people like me (5'6" and weighing 130lbs) when they are confronted by a huge overfed thieving b@stard!

I really don't give a flip about the size of a gun, rather the kinetic energy behind the projectile...

as a side fact, yep my shotgun is a big sucker...30" long goose hunting barrel with a hell of a tight pattern...considering I used it extensively in my younger days I am well used to its balance (which is actually quite nice) and given a chance to avoid shooting it would make a nice piece of metal to club/jab some dillhole with!

**Chode** · 03-23-2008, 11:15 AM

EP, I really don't understand why the British seem to find the idea of American gun ownership so difficult to understand. There was a time when Continental powers such as France considered any weapon in the hands of a peasant to be a direct threat to the Crown.

Meanwhile in England, the Crown made practice with the longbow (wielded by yeomen) mandatory. See also: Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt. As Colonials, we often had to defend ourselves because British troops weren't often there when we needed them. Finally, as rebels, we needed arms to defend ourselves against the British.

I don't go to bed at night expecting to be attacked or robbed in the middle of the night, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared. It's just a logical outgrowth of a policy dating back to Edward the First. During most of England's history, the kind of gun ownership we have today in America wouldn't have excited comment.

Tumbleweed36 · 03-23-2008, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chode

I don't go to bed at night expecting to be attacked or robbed in the middle of the night, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

Darn Chode, I can't believe we agree again. This is getting to be too much for me to believe!

Being originally a farm boy before going on to fame and fortune (missed on the fortune part anyway), we always had guns around for protection, varmits, and some times to have something to eat. Anyway, that way of life has never left me, so I always keep a few guns around just for the heck of it and they comfort you to know they are there. We live in the middle of an 8 1/2 acre woods and no neighbors for a pretty darn good distance away. Never know when a crumb bum will come around and want to take what I have or to harm the family, or even when a few varmits might show up around here. Well, the rest of that story is, with my guns, we are prepared.....bring it on!

mimo2005 · 03-23-2008, 11:36 AM

When the vice president dismisses public opposition to war with a simple "So?" he violates the single most important element in the American system of government....

Dick Cheney's Error
It's Government By the People
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032102482.html

**EnglishPaul** · 03-24-2008, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simpswr

Simple . . you vote them out of office . . which is what is about to happen

I still see that as a time lag democracy, in an age of instant everything. And at times long away from elections, the politicians have a lot of rope.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-24-2008, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wozer

you phrase that incorrectly (and...um...well rather offensively)

Sorry if I offended you. It was actually an attempt at humour.

One of my regrets about our very tight gun law is that it is quite difficult to shoot recreationally. I agree that guns can be fun.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-24-2008, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chode

During most of England's history, the kind of gun ownership we have today in America wouldn't have excited comment.

Nor would torture.

I can see how historically guns have had a use. I can even concede that they have a role in law and order. I just don't think they could overthrow a government any more.

**EnglishPaul** · 03-24-2008, 03:17 AM

Mimo, good attempt at trying to unhijack the thread.
I agree with this article.

mimo2005 · 03-24-2008, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishPaul

Mimo, good attempt at trying to unhijack the thread.
I agree with this article.

I tried....lol
I did my best...But will see if that worked .

03-23-2008, 09:52 AM	#24 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 989 OS: XP SP2	Re: Cheney On Two-Thirds Of The American Public Opposing The Iraq War: ‘So?’» Good reply. On the gun issue, I took my facts from a previous thread on gun control. I never would have guessed that guns were a tool to stop government tyranny; I always thought they were just a comfort for people with small wieners. And I never said America was corrupt. I just found it interesting that the writers of the constitution thought that it would become so. It hasn't yet, and if it did guns would not help. The restaurant analogy wasn't mine, and does break down in places, but it illustrates a concept. Perhaps in time China will have ideas to give us. I don't think that dictators have to be bad, just that inevitably they are. But if China can make a dictatorship democratic somehow, then how much better would it work in the west! But if two thirds of Americans can oppose something, and the politicians do it anyway, then you have to ask how well democracy is working.

03-23-2008, 11:15 AM	#28 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 784 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Cheney On Two-Thirds Of The American Public Opposing The Iraq War: ‘So?’» EP, I really don't understand why the British seem to find the idea of American gun ownership so difficult to understand. There was a time when Continental powers such as France considered any weapon in the hands of a peasant to be a direct threat to the Crown. Meanwhile in England, the Crown made practice with the longbow (wielded by yeomen) mandatory. See also: Crecy, Poitiers, and Agincourt. As Colonials, we often had to defend ourselves because British troops weren't often there when we needed them. Finally, as rebels, we needed arms to defend ourselves against the British. I don't go to bed at night expecting to be attacked or robbed in the middle of the night, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared. It's just a logical outgrowth of a policy dating back to Edward the First. During most of England's history, the kind of gun ownership we have today in America wouldn't have excited comment. __________________ Sweet!

03-23-2008, 11:36 AM	#30 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, The Relaxation Room/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 10,734 OS: xp	Re: Cheney On Two-Thirds Of The American Public Opposing The Iraq War: ‘So?’» When the vice president dismisses public opposition to war with a simple "So?" he violates the single most important element in the American system of government.... Dick Cheney's Error It's Government By the People http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032102482.html __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

03-24-2008, 03:17 AM	#34 (permalink)
EnglishPaul Still no avatar Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sheffield Posts: 989 OS: XP SP2	Re: Cheney On Two-Thirds Of The American Public Opposing The Iraq War: ‘So?’» Mimo, good attempt at trying to unhijack the thread. I agree with this article.