Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World

mimo2005 · 08-12-2007, 04:58 PM

CAIRO, Egypt — An Egyptian Muslim who converted to Christianity and then took the unprecedented step of seeking official recognition for the change said he has gone into hiding following death threats.

Mohammed Hegazy, who sparked controversy when pictures of him posing with a poster of the Virgin Mary were published in newspapers, was shunned by his family and threatened by an Islamist cleric vowing to seek his execution as an apostate.

“I know there are fatwas (religious edicts) to shed my blood, but I will not give up and I will not leave the country,” the 25-year-old Hegazy told The Associated Press from his hideout Thursday.

Hegazy made a public splash when he took the unusual step of going to court to change his religion on his national ID card. His first lawyer filed the case, but then quit after the uproar; his second is still considering whether it’s worth pursuing.

Hegazy said he received telephoned death threats before he went into hiding in an apartment with his wife, a Muslim who took the name Katarina when she converted to Christianity several years ago. She is four months pregnant.

He said he wants to change the religion on his ID for two reasons: to set a precedent for other converts and to ensure his child can openly be raised Christian. He wants his child to get a Christian name, birth certificate and eventually marry in a church. That would be impossible if Hegazy’s official religion is Muslim, because a child is registered in the religion of the father.

And this is in Egypt, a supposed American ally and supposedly moderate Muslim nation. Moderation or not, though, religious law seems to triumph over individual liberty:

There is no Egyptian law against converting from Islam to Christianity, but in this case tradition takes precedent. Under a widespread interpretation of Islamic law, converting from Islam is apostasy and punishable by death _ though killings are rare and the state has never ordered or carried out an execution on those grounds.

Most Muslims who convert usually practice their new religion quietly or leave the country. Egypt is overwhelmingly Muslim. Only 10 percent of the 76 million population is Christian and converts are typically ostracized by their families. If the conversion becomes known, they may receive death threats from militants or harassment by police, who use laws against “insulting religion” or “disturbing public order” to target them.

This case is disturbingly similar to that of Adbel Rahman, an Afghan man who was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity in 2006, and who was later forced to leave the country because of it. Things may not get that bad for Hegazy, but the mere fact that he’s been forced into hiding because of his religious beliefs is, I think, an indication of the nature of the enemy we’re dealing with.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=sec-religion

http://belowthebeltway.com/2007/08/1...-muslim-world/

**Redcore** · 08-13-2007, 06:15 PM

The same thing happens in the United States to muslims. To some degree, this still happens to anybody of any other culture/skin color. There are still people who run around planting flaming crosses on black people's lawns. WHAT?! AMERICA ISN"T PERFECT??T?? WTF HOLY HELL NO WAY! lol there are extreme cases in EVERY country. It doesn't make us any more correct because our country is predominantly Christian.

Quote:

Things may not get that bad for Hegazy, but the mere fact that he’s been forced into hiding because of his religious beliefs is, I think, an indication of the nature of the enemy we’re dealing with.

Well, that seems awfully ignorant to declare everyone of another religion as our enemy, doesn't it? I thought we were fighting terrorists? I seem to have misplaced the memo.

**-=Rousseau=-** · 08-13-2007, 10:05 PM

The same thing? What neighborhood do you live in? What observations is that statement based on? So far I only know a couple of people that converted to Islam, but neither of them has been given any fuss from anyone - not that they have mentioned at least. (I would figure death threats would be mentioned

) I have yet to see or hear of a single flaming cross planted in a yard - and I have lived in Tennessee for 10 years now. Cases like that would be the rarity, while as it seems in Egypt ostracism of converts is the norm.

~~Nik00117~~ · 08-13-2007, 10:45 PM

LOL Redcore where are you living in the states Hate Central? I lived in Georgia and we had quite a few hindi and Muslim poeple in the city. Never heard nor saw any real racisism directed toward t hem.

**Redcore** · 08-13-2007, 11:55 PM

If you really think that this type of thing doesn't happen because it doesn't happen in your own backyard...you've got to be crazy. My point, though, has more to do with that this happens NOT JUST to Muslims...but to anybody of different races, sexual orientations, religions, and ethnicity. Since 9/11, Muslims have experienced more hostility than most others. I wasn't trying to act like we have a cookie cut situation here, but I guess some people need to have things painted by numbers rather than reading the whole comment and taking into account such phrase usages as "to some degree".

"It doesn't happen in my backyard" is a perfect pacifist comment that ignorantly looks beyond what may happen in other areas. I never said it happens in my backyard (California is fairly liberal in most areas) but I shouldn't have to in order for you to understand. Even so, a few years ago there was a case of a muslim having a flaming cross in their front yard in a city I lived in. Yes in America these cases tend to be more rare than normal, but it still happens here nonetheless.

Just in case you're into "reading" and still think hate crimes do not happen in the red white and blue:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...ime/index.html

(read up on the observations, friendly Rousseau)

**-=Rousseau=-** · 08-14-2007, 05:43 AM

"For 2004, the hate crime program tallied 7,649 bias-motivated incidents" Out of 300 million people, I don't think that's really that bad... I never said it doesn't happen at all, I just said that it isn't like it's happening everywhere and to every Muslim (Or even most). What you said is that the same thing happens to Muslims in the US that converts suffer in Egypt. I don't think that the vast majority of Muslim converts in the US are faced with exile from their families, death threats, 2nd class citizenship, and abuse from the police and government. What happens in the US is in no way the same as what happens in Egypt. Yes, discrimination hasn't been completely eliminated in the US, but that is an unrealistic goal - people just aren't perfect... Show me one place in the world where there isn't any discrimination towards any group whatsoever... :P

mimo2005 · 08-14-2007, 08:39 AM

In the US CONGRESS , they have a pastor , a hindu and a muslim cleric , show me 1 arabic country that is open toward other religions .

I garantee you there are none , and all of them still charge their citizen in courts for Apostasy .

RedScott · 08-14-2007, 10:15 AM

Burning crosses? Well maybe not, but I'd say hanging nooses and incredibly unjust jail sentences are a basic sign of trouble.

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=67635

Quote:

The trouble started last September when black students sat under a tree at the high school where white students would take breaks.

The next day three nooses were found hanging from the branches. The students who hung them were suspended for three days.

Quote:

Three days later a white student was jumped and knocked unconscious. Six black students were charged with second degree attempted murder and expelled from school.

Quote:

Last month he was convicted of a reduced charge of aggravated second degree battery. He could be sentenced to 20 years in prison.

**Redcore** · 08-14-2007, 02:39 PM

LOL wow. Seems to me as though those students who hung the nooses should have recieved something quite a bit worse than a few days vacation from school. I can't stand racism (I can't stand ignorance in general) for the life of me...so I probably would have supported that kid getting his butt kicked (as long as he was apart of those kids that hung the nooses). Second degree attempted murder is insane though. The nooses clearly defined at least the possibility of death...so, that just seems dodge. Every school I've ever gone to takes this stuff WAY seriously (sometimes over the top).

**-=Rousseau=-** · 08-14-2007, 04:30 PM

Again, not the NORM. Does every (or almost every) black student who sits under a tree, or walks on a sidewalk, get treated poorly? No. If you are arguing that racism still is present in the US, that is a pointless argument because it is obvious. Racism still exists in every culture across the globe. Racism, and ignorance in general, will most likely never be completely eliminated.

Hanging nooses seems like a death threat to me, so I agree: they should have been charged and sentenced accordingly in court.

About the 6 black students, they were expelled... Were they sentenced for attempted murder? Not so far. The only one convicted so far was convicted for battery, which fits the crime. Beating someone is battery... :P Charging someone for something is only an accusation - not a conviction.

RedScott · 08-14-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

The only one convicted so far was convicted for battery, which fits the crime. Beating someone is battery... :P Charging someone for something is only an accusation - not a conviction.

I disagree. He was sentenced to "aggravated second degree battery", which in the state of Louisiana means assault with a "dangerous" weapon.

What was this child's "dangerous" weapon?

A tennis shoe.

This is the equivalent of adults getting into a drunken bar fight. Can you imagine the outcome of one of those fights being 20 YEARS in jail? It's obscene.

08-12-2007, 04:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, The Relaxation Room/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 10,506 OS: xp	Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World CAIRO, Egypt — An Egyptian Muslim who converted to Christianity and then took the unprecedented step of seeking official recognition for the change said he has gone into hiding following death threats. Mohammed Hegazy, who sparked controversy when pictures of him posing with a poster of the Virgin Mary were published in newspapers, was shunned by his family and threatened by an Islamist cleric vowing to seek his execution as an apostate. “I know there are fatwas (religious edicts) to shed my blood, but I will not give up and I will not leave the country,” the 25-year-old Hegazy told The Associated Press from his hideout Thursday. Hegazy made a public splash when he took the unusual step of going to court to change his religion on his national ID card. His first lawyer filed the case, but then quit after the uproar; his second is still considering whether it’s worth pursuing. Hegazy said he received telephoned death threats before he went into hiding in an apartment with his wife, a Muslim who took the name Katarina when she converted to Christianity several years ago. She is four months pregnant. He said he wants to change the religion on his ID for two reasons: to set a precedent for other converts and to ensure his child can openly be raised Christian. He wants his child to get a Christian name, birth certificate and eventually marry in a church. That would be impossible if Hegazy’s official religion is Muslim, because a child is registered in the religion of the father. And this is in Egypt, a supposed American ally and supposedly moderate Muslim nation. Moderation or not, though, religious law seems to triumph over individual liberty: There is no Egyptian law against converting from Islam to Christianity, but in this case tradition takes precedent. Under a widespread interpretation of Islamic law, converting from Islam is apostasy and punishable by death _ though killings are rare and the state has never ordered or carried out an execution on those grounds. Most Muslims who convert usually practice their new religion quietly or leave the country. Egypt is overwhelmingly Muslim. Only 10 percent of the 76 million population is Christian and converts are typically ostracized by their families. If the conversion becomes known, they may receive death threats from militants or harassment by police, who use laws against “insulting religion” or “disturbing public order” to target them. This case is disturbingly similar to that of Adbel Rahman, an Afghan man who was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity in 2006, and who was later forced to leave the country because of it. Things may not get that bad for Hegazy, but the mere fact that he’s been forced into hiding because of his religious beliefs is, I think, an indication of the nature of the enemy we’re dealing with. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=sec-religion http://belowthebeltway.com/2007/08/1...-muslim-world/ __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

08-13-2007, 10:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
-=Rousseau=- Where Was I? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 681 OS: Windows Vista Home Premium My System	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World The same thing? What neighborhood do you live in? What observations is that statement based on? So far I only know a couple of people that converted to Islam, but neither of them has been given any fuss from anyone - not that they have mentioned at least. (I would figure death threats would be mentioned ) I have yet to see or hear of a single flaming cross planted in a yard - and I have lived in Tennessee for 10 years now. Cases like that would be the rarity, while as it seems in Egypt ostracism of converts is the norm. Last edited by -=Rousseau=- : 08-13-2007 at 10:07 PM.

08-13-2007, 10:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World LOL Redcore where are you living in the states Hate Central? I lived in Georgia and we had quite a few hindi and Muslim poeple in the city. Never heard nor saw any real racisism directed toward t hem.

08-13-2007, 11:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
Redcore Design Team Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Jamestown, CA Posts: 475 OS: WinXP My System	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World If you really think that this type of thing doesn't happen because it doesn't happen in your own backyard...you've got to be crazy. My point, though, has more to do with that this happens NOT JUST to Muslims...but to anybody of different races, sexual orientations, religions, and ethnicity. Since 9/11, Muslims have experienced more hostility than most others. I wasn't trying to act like we have a cookie cut situation here, but I guess some people need to have things painted by numbers rather than reading the whole comment and taking into account such phrase usages as "to some degree". "It doesn't happen in my backyard" is a perfect pacifist comment that ignorantly looks beyond what may happen in other areas. I never said it happens in my backyard (California is fairly liberal in most areas) but I shouldn't have to in order for you to understand. Even so, a few years ago there was a case of a muslim having a flaming cross in their front yard in a city I lived in. Yes in America these cases tend to be more rare than normal, but it still happens here nonetheless. Just in case you're into "reading" and still think hate crimes do not happen in the red white and blue: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...ime/index.html (read up on the observations, friendly Rousseau)

08-14-2007, 05:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
-=Rousseau=- Where Was I? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 681 OS: Windows Vista Home Premium My System	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World "For 2004, the hate crime program tallied 7,649 bias-motivated incidents" Out of 300 million people, I don't think that's really that bad... I never said it doesn't happen at all, I just said that it isn't like it's happening everywhere and to every Muslim (Or even most). What you said is that the same thing happens to Muslims in the US that converts suffer in Egypt. I don't think that the vast majority of Muslim converts in the US are faced with exile from their families, death threats, 2nd class citizenship, and abuse from the police and government. What happens in the US is in no way the same as what happens in Egypt. Yes, discrimination hasn't been completely eliminated in the US, but that is an unrealistic goal - people just aren't perfect... Show me one place in the world where there isn't any discrimination towards any group whatsoever... :P

08-14-2007, 08:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, The Relaxation Room/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 10,506 OS: xp	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World In the US CONGRESS , they have a pastor , a hindu and a muslim cleric , show me 1 arabic country that is open toward other religions . I garantee you there are none , and all of them still charge their citizen in courts for Apostasy . __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

08-14-2007, 02:39 PM	#9 (permalink)
Redcore Design Team Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Jamestown, CA Posts: 475 OS: WinXP My System	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World LOL wow. Seems to me as though those students who hung the nooses should have recieved something quite a bit worse than a few days vacation from school. I can't stand racism (I can't stand ignorance in general) for the life of me...so I probably would have supported that kid getting his butt kicked (as long as he was apart of those kids that hung the nooses). Second degree attempted murder is insane though. The nooses clearly defined at least the possibility of death...so, that just seems dodge. Every school I've ever gone to takes this stuff WAY seriously (sometimes over the top).

08-14-2007, 04:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
-=Rousseau=- Where Was I? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 681 OS: Windows Vista Home Premium My System	Re: Religious Tolerance In The Muslim World Again, not the NORM. Does every (or almost every) black student who sits under a tree, or walks on a sidewalk, get treated poorly? No. If you are arguing that racism still is present in the US, that is a pointless argument because it is obvious. Racism still exists in every culture across the globe. Racism, and ignorance in general, will most likely never be completely eliminated. Hanging nooses seems like a death threat to me, so I agree: they should have been charged and sentenced accordingly in court. About the 6 black students, they were expelled... Were they sentenced for attempted murder? Not so far. The only one convicted so far was convicted for battery, which fits the crime. Beating someone is battery... :P Charging someone for something is only an accusation - not a conviction.