Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income?

mimo2005 · 08-09-2007, 05:28 AM

As soon as 21-year-old Matt Murphy snagged the valuable piece of sports history Tuesday night, his souvenir became taxable income in the eyes of the Internal Revenue Service, according to experts.

"It's an expensive catch," said John Barrie, a tax lawyer with Bryan Cave LLP in New York who grew up watching the Giants play at Candlestick Park. "Once he took possession of the ball and it was his ball, it was income to him based on its value as of yesterday,"

By most estimates, the ball that put Bonds atop the list of all-time home run hitters with 756 would sell in the half-million dollar range on the open market or at auction.

That would instantly put Murphy, a college student from Queens, in the highest tax bracket for individual income, where he would face a tax rate of about 35 percent, or about $210,000 on a $600,000 ball.

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said...

[A]t least one ball was as much a source of embarrassment for the IRS as revenue.

As Mark McGwire chased the mark for most home runs in a season in 1998, IRS officials initially said the ball that broke Roger Maris' long-standing record could be subject to taxes even if it were returned to McGwire. The statements were ridiculed by politicians and quickly disavowed by the agency's top brass.

http://blog.mises.org/archives/006959.asp

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns

~~Nik00117~~ · 08-09-2007, 09:21 AM

He should only be taxed for it once he has sold the ball.

bry623 · 08-09-2007, 09:26 AM

I would have given it back to Barry.

RedScott · 08-09-2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

He should only be taxed for it once he has sold the ball.

Why should he be taxed if he sold it? What legitimate claim can the government make to that money?

mimo2005 · 08-09-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

I would have given it back to Barry.

I was thinking the same

You got beat up by a bunch of strangers ,then you pay again irs for being beat up .

~~Nik00117~~ · 08-09-2007, 12:10 PM

Your question

Quote:

Why should he be taxed if he sold it? What legitimate claim can the government make to that money?

My response

Quote:

16th Amendment:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Basically, if he sells the ball, it is therefore income. Doesn't matter how the income came in, its the fact that it CAME IN.

Therefore this implies that since this ball will become a income source if he sells it then that allows the IRS to tax it.

HOWEVER it does not allow the IRS to tax it before it has become income.

Therefore until this man sells the ball in question it is merely property and just a simple baseball and should not be taxed.

However when he sells it will be income and therefore taxed...

TVYM

RedScott · 08-09-2007, 12:34 PM

So your answer to why the government has the right to take your money is that they say they do?

mimo2005 · 08-09-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nik00117

HOWEVER it does not allow the IRS to tax it before it has become income.

Taken from the article :

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value .

**-=Rousseau=-** · 08-09-2007, 04:11 PM

That is BS! Are you taxed the same if you are given a car? I guess I owe the IRS quite a bit of money for every gift that I have ever been given... And what about pennies I find on the ground?

**Drew1369** · 08-09-2007, 07:38 PM

Supreme Court ruling 1920 "The 16th ammendment gives congress no new powers to tax the American people"

bry623 · 08-10-2007, 05:18 AM

I estimate that TSF will have a net worth of $1,000,000 in a few years.............. time for the IRS to go to Jason's

~~Wozer~~ · 08-10-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimo2005

Taken from the article :

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value .

absurd....no income has been derived, and no value can be set until it is sold...and that value cannot really be determined as consider who hit the ball! (if he ever gets exonerated of the charges of juicing then it could be worth a cool million+, if he ever gets found guilty it won't be worth squat)

**Chode** · 08-10-2007, 07:54 PM

I think the IRS limit on non-taxable gifts is still $10K. So, if you are given a car with a value exceeding that amount, yep, Rousseau, you are liable for income taxes on the excess value.

Now, how is it that the IRS can tax someone on the presumptive value of an incidentally acquired object? Because they say they can. The DEA and the IRS are the only Federal agencies that can deprive you of your property without due process of law. Look, someone has to pay for the Bush administration's policy of runaway spending and massive tax cuts for the wealthy, and (obviously), it isn't going to be the wealthy.

~~Nik00117~~ · 08-11-2007, 08:57 AM

I don't believe you some of you guys read my post.

If this ball becomes INCOME, then it is taxable.

Until then, its not taxable in my book.

**Chode** · 08-11-2007, 10:06 PM

Nik, it isn't that I didn't read your post, and I don't disagree with your contention that the ball isn't income untill it is sold. I agree with you 100%. However, the IRS doesn't, and they have all the power in this matter. Legalities aren't the issue here. The reality is that if the IRS wants to extract money from you, they will. This isn't different in any regard from having a street thug stick a gun up your nose and rob you, except that the IRS has the blessing of the U.S. Government.

**Chode** · 08-11-2007, 10:06 PM

Ack! System glitch! Posted the same response twice!

mimo2005 · 08-12-2007, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chode

Nik, it isn't that I didn't read your post, and I don't disagree with your contention that the ball isn't income untill it is sold. I agree with you 100%. However, the IRS doesn't, and they have all the power in this matter. Legalities aren't the issue here. The reality is that if the IRS wants to extract money from you, they will. This isn't different in any regard from having a street thug stick a gun up your nose and rob you, except that the IRS has the blessing of the U.S. Government.

Exactly .
Al Capone kows something about it ! IRS was its doom .
<Capone was convicted of tax evasion , Where Police failed to arrest him for all the murders he was behind , IRS succeeded in putting him behind bars. >

08-09-2007, 05:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
mimo2005 Manager, The Relaxation Room/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 10,770 OS: xp	Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? As soon as 21-year-old Matt Murphy snagged the valuable piece of sports history Tuesday night, his souvenir became taxable income in the eyes of the Internal Revenue Service, according to experts. "It's an expensive catch," said John Barrie, a tax lawyer with Bryan Cave LLP in New York who grew up watching the Giants play at Candlestick Park. "Once he took possession of the ball and it was his ball, it was income to him based on its value as of yesterday," By most estimates, the ball that put Bonds atop the list of all-time home run hitters with 756 would sell in the half-million dollar range on the open market or at auction. That would instantly put Murphy, a college student from Queens, in the highest tax bracket for individual income, where he would face a tax rate of about 35 percent, or about $210,000 on a $600,000 ball. Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said... [A]t least one ball was as much a source of embarrassment for the IRS as revenue. As Mark McGwire chased the mark for most home runs in a season in 1998, IRS officials initially said the ball that broke Roger Maris' long-standing record could be subject to taxes even if it were returned to McGwire. The statements were ridiculed by politicians and quickly disavowed by the agency's top brass. http://blog.mises.org/archives/006959.asp http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...v=ap&type=lgns __________________ TSF has outgrown its server, again. Please help "Gutta cavat lapidem, non vi sed saepe cadendo"

08-09-2007, 09:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? He should only be taxed for it once he has sold the ball.

08-09-2007, 09:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,551 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? I would have given it back to Barry. __________________ When you fear Sarah, you attack her and try destroy her

08-09-2007, 12:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
RedScott Registered User Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 312 OS: Windows XP	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? So your answer to why the government has the right to take your money is that they say they do?

08-09-2007, 04:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
-=Rousseau=- Where Was I? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 694 OS: Windows Vista Home Premium My System	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? That is BS! Are you taxed the same if you are given a car? I guess I owe the IRS quite a bit of money for every gift that I have ever been given... And what about pennies I find on the ground?

08-09-2007, 07:38 PM	#10 (permalink)
Drew1369 TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 2,315 OS: Vista Business	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? Supreme Court ruling 1920 "The 16th ammendment gives congress no new powers to tax the American people" __________________ Marge: We wouldn't be in this trouble if you'd just paid the heating bill! Homer: I thought global warming would take care of it! Al Gore can't do anything right!

08-10-2007, 05:18 AM	#11 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,551 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? I estimate that TSF will have a net worth of $1,000,000 in a few years.............. time for the IRS to go to Jason's __________________ When you fear Sarah, you attack her and try destroy her

08-10-2007, 07:54 PM	#13 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 809 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? I think the IRS limit on non-taxable gifts is still $10K. So, if you are given a car with a value exceeding that amount, yep, Rousseau, you are liable for income taxes on the excess value. Now, how is it that the IRS can tax someone on the presumptive value of an incidentally acquired object? Because they say they can. The DEA and the IRS are the only Federal agencies that can deprive you of your property without due process of law. Look, someone has to pay for the Bush administration's policy of runaway spending and massive tax cuts for the wealthy, and (obviously), it isn't going to be the wealthy. __________________ Sweet!

08-11-2007, 08:57 AM	#14 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? I don't believe you some of you guys read my post. If this ball becomes INCOME, then it is taxable. Until then, its not taxable in my book.

08-11-2007, 10:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 809 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? Nik, it isn't that I didn't read your post, and I don't disagree with your contention that the ball isn't income untill it is sold. I agree with you 100%. However, the IRS doesn't, and they have all the power in this matter. Legalities aren't the issue here. The reality is that if the IRS wants to extract money from you, they will. This isn't different in any regard from having a street thug stick a gun up your nose and rob you, except that the IRS has the blessing of the U.S. Government. __________________ Sweet!

08-11-2007, 10:06 PM	#16 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 809 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Why is Catching a Baseball Taxable Income? Ack! System glitch! Posted the same response twice! __________________ Sweet! Last edited by Chode : 08-11-2007 at 10:11 PM.