Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding

**Chode** · 04-01-2007, 03:35 PM

Israel of course is one of our closest allies. Arabs who attack U.S. ships like the Cole are terrorists. For anyone who thinks that the Israeli's are unquestionably always in the right, here is a link to a mostly ignored and forgotten incident: http://www.ussliberty.org/moorer3.htm

**Drew1369** · 04-01-2007, 04:07 PM

Wow... what a way to drudge up something that old... why?

cstr20cstr · 04-01-2007, 04:35 PM

-omit-

**Chode** · 04-01-2007, 04:38 PM

Another thread where the Gulf of Tonkin Incident came up reminded me of this. I still regard it as one of the more shameful incidents in U.S. history, and a valuable lesson. Sort of like slapping a hysterical person to wake them up. Given the current saber rattling about Iran, I think we all need to remember the Liberty, the men who served on her, and our response.

**Chode** · 04-01-2007, 04:43 PM

America's HIghest Ranking Naval Officer
Admiral Thomas Moorer (1912 - 2004)
Former Chief of Naval Operations
and
Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff
Rejects the Israeli Excuse

I apologize for Admiral Moorer's bias, cstr. I guess he was just upset by the cowardly murder of U.S. servicemen. If you don't like this source, you can Google it all you want. Feel free to refute me at any time.

Tumbleweed36 · 04-01-2007, 07:01 PM

Hi Chode,

Nice read and although Israel is our ally, there should be no excuses for something like this. I wish those idiots in congress would spend more time investigating and assigning blame/punishment for incidents like this and less time positioning themselves for re-election.

Another point, If I had to choose the worst Presidents (other thread you talked about) of all time, I would certainly look at President Johnson or President Carter. Neither were worth much as my memory goes.

Thanks for sharing that information, I had just forgotten about that one.

**Chode** · 04-01-2007, 08:18 PM

It always surprises me that so many Americans are unaware of this incident. I was 15 when it occurred, and against the larger canvas of Vietnam it went largely un-remarked. Israel apologized and everyone bought into the official version. It was nearly 10 years before I started reading about this in more detail, and I was horrified.

For me, this became the watershed for my automatic support for Israel. My views on U.S. Middle Eastern policy and U.S./Israeli relations were totally changed. I did some more research, and found that Israeli "freedom fighters" had committed many of the same "terrorist" acts that they later deplored.

If the sinking of the Liberty and the murder of her crew had been committed by an Arab state, I don't doubt how we would have responded. I think this incident should not be forgotten when we debate policy for the Middle East. Frankly, our alliance with Israel seems to me to resemble the alliance between a dog and a tick.

**marley07712** · 04-01-2007, 08:47 PM

I think we need to be careful about how we categorize Israel. While I do believe there is much more that the country could be doing to help the peace process in the region, we as a country are not directly surrounded by those that want to kill us. They are, and they have a right to exist (INMO).

bry623 · 04-02-2007, 07:32 AM

I think that the UK bruning our presidential resdience almost 200 years ago is equally shameful. How could they have not known?

**marley07712** · 04-04-2007, 08:58 PM

I brine my turkey every Thanksgiving

**Drew1369** · 04-05-2007, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bry623

I think that the UK bruning our presidential resdience almost 200 years ago is equally shameful. How could they have not known?

Or their invasion in 1812... hmmmm

**Kalim** · 04-08-2007, 06:48 PM

Lopsided but at least the link was flowing in the right direction of intelligence and truth. Pity about the rest of the betise though.

**Chode** · 04-10-2007, 06:44 PM

Well, bry, the small difference between the Liberty and the War of 1812 was that when the British burned the White House we were at war with Britain. This was even back in the days when the Constitutional provision about only Congress having the power to declare war was actually observed.

The "official" explanation of mistaken identity really doesn't cut it. For anyone who thinks it does, trot out the evidence and quit whining.

~~Nik00117~~ · 04-12-2007, 01:15 AM

I don't support Isreal,

In international conferences for my MUN meeting I've gone off on Israel and good god I musta had the entire house pissed at me, and every time I've proven my point.

Isreal is reckless, and will use military force on the drop of a hat. They are endangerment to world peace.

Example

Recent war they were in. There was a UN outpost, well marked has been there for 40 years! They had precision guided ammunition and fired I believe it was 23 rounds at the post before scoring a direct hit.

Wanna know the kicker? The outpost was in DIRECT CONTACT with the Isreal army. They were saying "STOP ATTACKS THEY ARE GETTING CLOSER!"

Isreal ignored it, and kept on firing. They killed 4 UN obsevesors, they can only be so lucky I wasn't the seceraty General.

bry623 · 04-12-2007, 05:50 AM

Sorry, my point was that things in the past should stay buried in the past. Besides, in 1812, we actually invaded Canada which more or less started the war. We had our way with them until they got reinforcements, and then they handed our hats to us. But at least we got our national anthem out of it.

~~Girderman~~ · 04-12-2007, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Besides, in 1812, we actually invaded Canada which more or less started the war.

Looking for the recipe to prepare that wonderful back-bacon, eh ?

bry623 · 04-12-2007, 09:31 AM

More like fulfilling the Articles of Confederation.

**Chode** · 04-12-2007, 10:13 AM

Bry, I think letting things stay buried in the past usually means pretending they didn't happen. Can't do that with the Liberty I think the question we have to deal with is whether or not this is an indicator of how the Israelis view the "alliance" with the U.S.

Sorry, but I think the Israeli government has been consistently dominated by the most paranoid and extreme members of the Zionist movement. Don't get me wrong; I can certainly understand this in view of the Holocaust, et. al., but the cold ruthlessness of being willing to murder defenseless sailors of your most important ally, while feeling secure in the belief that political forces in the U.S. will sweep it under the rug is more than contemptible.

Let's just take a moment to remember the Cole, the Pueblo, and think how different our reaction was. I might be more willing to forget the past if our servicemen who were killed and wounded in this incident had been properly recognized for their heroism. I might not care so much if I didn't believe that the same mentality that directed this attack wasn't still the dominant force in Israeli politics.

Israel might like us all to forget their history of terrorism, but that policy continues to this day. Unfortunately, I often feel that the only thing the Israelis learned from the Nazis was to imitate them. Other than a dubious sense of moral satisfaction for backing "the Good Guys", I'd like someone to explain what benefits the U.S. has derived from this alliance in proportion to what we have contributed to Israel.

04-01-2007, 03:35 PM	#1 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 810 OS: Windows XP Pro	Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Israel of course is one of our closest allies. Arabs who attack U.S. ships like the Cole are terrorists. For anyone who thinks that the Israeli's are unquestionably always in the right, here is a link to a mostly ignored and forgotten incident: http://www.ussliberty.org/moorer3.htm __________________ Sweet!

04-01-2007, 04:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
Drew1369 TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 2,318 OS: Vista Business	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Wow... what a way to drudge up something that old... why? __________________ Marge: We wouldn't be in this trouble if you'd just paid the heating bill! Homer: I thought global warming would take care of it! Al Gore can't do anything right!

04-01-2007, 04:35 PM	#3 (permalink)
cstr20cstr Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 309 OS: xp	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding -omit- Last edited by cstr20cstr : 04-01-2007 at 04:40 PM.

04-01-2007, 04:38 PM	#4 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 810 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Another thread where the Gulf of Tonkin Incident came up reminded me of this. I still regard it as one of the more shameful incidents in U.S. history, and a valuable lesson. Sort of like slapping a hysterical person to wake them up. Given the current saber rattling about Iran, I think we all need to remember the Liberty, the men who served on her, and our response. __________________ Sweet!

04-01-2007, 04:43 PM	#5 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 810 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding America's HIghest Ranking Naval Officer Admiral Thomas Moorer (1912 - 2004) Former Chief of Naval Operations and Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff Rejects the Israeli Excuse I apologize for Admiral Moorer's bias, cstr. I guess he was just upset by the cowardly murder of U.S. servicemen. If you don't like this source, you can Google it all you want. Feel free to refute me at any time. __________________ Sweet!

04-01-2007, 07:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Tumbleweed36 Asst Manager Hardware Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 14,190 OS: XP Professional	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Hi Chode, Nice read and although Israel is our ally, there should be no excuses for something like this. I wish those idiots in congress would spend more time investigating and assigning blame/punishment for incidents like this and less time positioning themselves for re-election. Another point, If I had to choose the worst Presidents (other thread you talked about) of all time, I would certainly look at President Johnson or President Carter. Neither were worth much as my memory goes. Thanks for sharing that information, I had just forgotten about that one. __________________ ----------

04-01-2007, 08:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 810 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding It always surprises me that so many Americans are unaware of this incident. I was 15 when it occurred, and against the larger canvas of Vietnam it went largely un-remarked. Israel apologized and everyone bought into the official version. It was nearly 10 years before I started reading about this in more detail, and I was horrified. For me, this became the watershed for my automatic support for Israel. My views on U.S. Middle Eastern policy and U.S./Israeli relations were totally changed. I did some more research, and found that Israeli "freedom fighters" had committed many of the same "terrorist" acts that they later deplored. If the sinking of the Liberty and the murder of her crew had been committed by an Arab state, I don't doubt how we would have responded. I think this incident should not be forgotten when we debate policy for the Middle East. Frankly, our alliance with Israel seems to me to resemble the alliance between a dog and a tick. __________________ Sweet!

04-01-2007, 08:47 PM	#8 (permalink)
marley07712 I helped the forums. Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 152 OS: XP	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding I think we need to be careful about how we categorize Israel. While I do believe there is much more that the country could be doing to help the peace process in the region, we as a country are not directly surrounded by those that want to kill us. They are, and they have a right to exist (INMO).

04-02-2007, 07:32 AM	#9 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,551 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding I think that the UK bruning our presidential resdience almost 200 years ago is equally shameful. How could they have not known? __________________ When you fear Sarah, you attack her and try destroy her

04-04-2007, 08:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
marley07712 I helped the forums. Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 152 OS: XP	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding I brine my turkey every Thanksgiving

04-08-2007, 06:48 PM	#12 (permalink)
Kalim Roaming To Help Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,609 OS: Many	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Lopsided but at least the link was flowing in the right direction of intelligence and truth. Pity about the rest of the betise though.

04-10-2007, 06:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 810 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Well, bry, the small difference between the Liberty and the War of 1812 was that when the British burned the White House we were at war with Britain. This was even back in the days when the Constitutional provision about only Congress having the power to declare war was actually observed. The "official" explanation of mistaken identity really doesn't cut it. For anyone who thinks it does, trot out the evidence and quit whining. __________________ Sweet!

04-12-2007, 01:15 AM	#14 (permalink)
~~Nik00117~~ Troubled Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Germany Posts: 1,572 OS: XP Pro, Vista Ulimate My System	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding I don't support Isreal, In international conferences for my MUN meeting I've gone off on Israel and good god I musta had the entire house pissed at me, and every time I've proven my point. Isreal is reckless, and will use military force on the drop of a hat. They are endangerment to world peace. Example Recent war they were in. There was a UN outpost, well marked has been there for 40 years! They had precision guided ammunition and fired I believe it was 23 rounds at the post before scoring a direct hit. Wanna know the kicker? The outpost was in DIRECT CONTACT with the Isreal army. They were saying "STOP ATTACKS THEY ARE GETTING CLOSER!" Isreal ignored it, and kept on firing. They killed 4 UN obsevesors, they can only be so lucky I wasn't the seceraty General.

04-12-2007, 05:50 AM	#15 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,551 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Sorry, my point was that things in the past should stay buried in the past. Besides, in 1812, we actually invaded Canada which more or less started the war. We had our way with them until they got reinforcements, and then they handed our hats to us. But at least we got our national anthem out of it. __________________ When you fear Sarah, you attack her and try destroy her

04-12-2007, 09:31 AM	#17 (permalink)
bry623 Manager, The Conversation Pit/Analyst, Security Team Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NW Territory circa 1787 Posts: 10,551 OS: winxp pro sp2	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding More like fulfilling the Articles of Confederation. __________________ When you fear Sarah, you attack her and try destroy her

04-12-2007, 10:13 AM	#18 (permalink)
Chode TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 810 OS: Windows XP Pro	Re: Minor U.S./Israeli Misunderstanding Bry, I think letting things stay buried in the past usually means pretending they didn't happen. Can't do that with the Liberty I think the question we have to deal with is whether or not this is an indicator of how the Israelis view the "alliance" with the U.S. Sorry, but I think the Israeli government has been consistently dominated by the most paranoid and extreme members of the Zionist movement. Don't get me wrong; I can certainly understand this in view of the Holocaust, et. al., but the cold ruthlessness of being willing to murder defenseless sailors of your most important ally, while feeling secure in the belief that political forces in the U.S. will sweep it under the rug is more than contemptible. Let's just take a moment to remember the Cole, the Pueblo, and think how different our reaction was. I might be more willing to forget the past if our servicemen who were killed and wounded in this incident had been properly recognized for their heroism. I might not care so much if I didn't believe that the same mentality that directed this attack wasn't still the dominant force in Israeli politics. Israel might like us all to forget their history of terrorism, but that policy continues to this day. Unfortunately, I often feel that the only thing the Israelis learned from the Nazis was to imitate them. Other than a dubious sense of moral satisfaction for backing "the Good Guys", I'd like someone to explain what benefits the U.S. has derived from this alliance in proportion to what we have contributed to Israel. __________________ Sweet!