Islam ........... A peaceful religion? - Page 2

yustr · 10-25-2006, 12:00 PM

I agree that this is sounding like religion bashing to me too - only anti-Islam not anti-west.

I don't see this thread going anywhere and am closing it. PM me if you feel strongly that it is a viable conversation that should be continued.

yustr · 10-25-2006, 06:58 PM

I have reopened this thread. Please use it as a forum to exchange ideas, opinions and knowledge of Islam and other world religions. If it deteriorates I will close it.

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 02:49 AM

I have more points to add to the thread.

I was about put some versers from quran about k
khafir.
Below are a few Quranic verses that use the root word k. The translation others, including Jews and Christians, and not only against the Meccans or their pagan allies.

In the end, i think : I am saddened that anyone should have held this misconception of unity between muslims and christians, meaning the conception that the Quran encourages belligerency towards Christians and Jews. What should be lamented is that many followers but nevertheless is unable to look past his or hers prejudices to the see what the Islamic source materials state and claims.

Make no mistake about it: The Muslim terrorists are still at war .They will strike again. It is a natural part of real Islam. The tragedy is that until we realize the darkness in Islam, we will not be able to properly confront and deal with that darkness.My conclusion is that The Meccan (during the time of prophet muhammed) polytheists were long gone, either having died, fled, or converted to Islam by choice or by compulsion. The verse teaches belligerence towards Christians and Jews. The Quran does teach violence or subjection against all non-Muslims.

next quotes

Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad they had no beneficial faith in any messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah’s Law and religion. Had they been true believers in the religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad’s advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even thought he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets. Hence Allah’s statement

This honorable ayah (passage) was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslim’s control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination….

Additionally, in the Hadith that Muhammad foretold that his followers would take their wars of conquest to distant lands. Below is a Hadith from Muslim’s collection:

Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6930:
Nafi' b. Utba reported: We were with Allah's Messenger in an expedition that there came a people to Allah's Apostle from the direction of the west. They were dressed in woolen clothes and they stood near a hillock and they met him as Allah's Messenger was sitting. I said to myself: Better go to them and stand between him and them that they may not attack him. Then I thought that perhaps there had been going on secret negotiation amongst them. I however, went to them and stood between them and him and I remember four of the words (on that occasion) which I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah's Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi' said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered.

Allah said, "until they pay the Jizyah," if they do not choose to embrace Islam, "with willing submission", in defeat and subservience, "and feel themselves subdued," disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.

many construe this verse as self defense but it is opposite...........
9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden--such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled."

The battle of Hunain was one of the battles Muhammad fought well after the conquest of Mecca. It helped to cement his domination over the Hijaz. This battle occurred in the year 8 A.H., (630 A.D.).

the account of how christians were treated.........

Below is an example of how Muhammad treated Christians just before he died. The account records that Muhammad marshaled 30,000 of his troops north to the town of Tabuk to do battle with the Romans. Upon arriving they found no one there and no threat existed. Muhammad took advantage of this opportunity to exploit others and sent a detachment to Ayla.

Quotes

To John ibn Rabah and the Chiefs of Aylah. Peace be on you! I praise God for you, beside whom there is no Lord. I will not fight against you until I have written thus unto you. Believe, or else pay tribute. And be obedient unto the Lord and his Prophet, and the messengers of his Prophet. Honor them and clothe them with excellent vestments, not with inferior raiment. Specially clothe Zeid with excellent garments. As long as my messengers are pleased, so likewise am I. Ye know the tribute. If ye desire to have security by sea and by land, obey the Lord and his Apostle, and he will defend you from every claim, whether by Arab or foreigner, saving the claim of the Lord and his Apostle. But if ye oppose and displease them, I will not accept from you a single thing, until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder.

My friends actions speak ever louder than words. The Quran 9:29, 30 refers to Christians and Jews in general. Muhammad terrorized non-Muslim peoples.

**Fr4665** · 10-26-2006, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xerxes

Not only does the Quran present other peoples besides the Meccan as "kuffar", a Sahih Hadith (another reference Cole has used) states that the Christians and Jews would be punished by Allah in hell:

i dont believe in hell so all the non believers do what i guess well just chill and ....?

i still dont get it, u said ur proud to be a jew why post so much pro islam anti-west democracy stuff and now quotes from the quran

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fr4665

i dont believe in hell so all the non believers do what i guess well just chill and ....?

i still dont get it, u said ur proud to be a jew why post so much pro islam anti-west democracy stuff and now quotes from the quran

Why dont understand me ? if u can understand me and the way i quote materials from Quran, u can see that i describing the actual islam to all of u.
if u think i am supporter of islam, then u are wrong. Did u read my first and second post carefully???????? if u read it , u would understand whether i am pro or against islam. I also not note, if i am answering your question, then there is some mystery behind it.........

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yustr

I have reopened this thread. Please use it as a forum to exchange ideas, opinions and knowledge of Islam and other world religions. If it deteriorates I will close it.

I am not talking anti west .. I providing the actual facts happenning in the quran. Many mullahs, extremists use these words when they maim and convert ignorant and innocent people. one has to be educated on the islam.

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 03:17 AM

my words,quotes and meanings are to instill debate among people who think that islam is a peacful religion. i am just asking is it a peaceful religion based on the literature provided to the forum readers. Please dont close this thread. it is interesting to hear what more views can added to this thread.

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 03:30 AM

5 ages after Jesus the Arabian trader Mohammad met Muslim Christianity in Syrian monasteries. Mohammad failed to grasp the message love everybody like yourself.
i believe that Mohammad born in Arabia, developed the agressive sect 'Mohammedanism' as branch of Islam with as motto: 'attack is the best defense' (but peace on him)Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, but might be seen as 10 ages later 'Martin Luther' within Catholicism. 'Muhammedanism' is a kind of Islamic Protestantism

Mohammedanism filled the gap left by the crumbled Eastern Empire of the Romans, resulting in constant war with Zoroastrian Persia
In Sunni Mohammedanism Mohammad's closest friend and father-in-law Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, became his legitimate elected succesor in 632. The Shi'a Mohammedanists follow Mohammad's cousin and son-in-law Ali Ibn Abi Talib. It makes more sense to see Mohammad as Arabian Emperor than as prophet.

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 03:37 AM

below u can see an attchment of the present day islamic empire.

Xerxes · 10-26-2006, 03:41 AM

From the ashes of old empires emerged new nation-states in Europe and Asia. For Muslims, these meant an uncertain division of "politics" and "religion," an unprecedented innovation in the history of the umma.

"secular" states emerged in Turkey and Iran, often with brutally enforced separation of political and religious life. "Islamic" nations emerged (often with the military or financial support of western powers) in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt (where the tension between secularism and Islamism proved irresolvable). The creation of the Zionist state of Israel polarized the Islamic middle east, while the creation of Islamic Pakistan polarized southern Asia.

The tensions of "globalism" and "modernization" have led to extreme reactions and conflicts: the Shi'i revolution in Iran ousted the brutally secularizing Shah in 1979; "Islamism," reform movements dedicated to de-westernizing and purifying Islamic life, have emerged throughout the Islamic world; new "ethnic" nationalism in central Europe has redefined existence for European Muslims in former Yugoslavia; and thinly veiled religious rhetoric has informed the most recent international conflicts between (and amongst) western and eastern powers. More of this will continue to splill untill a world government is formed.............

**40sondacurb** · 10-26-2006, 07:20 AM

I'd like to note that it is our responsibility to make as concise an argument as you can. That means making your point in one post, two if you can't edit, but six in a row is way overboard.

**Wozer** · 10-26-2006, 07:32 AM

@Xerxes

sooo....what exactly are you?....you say you're a Jew and anti-???

all Islam, part of Islam....w00t?

get to the point man...

can we hear a simple statement of your beliefs?

then perhaps it will be appropriate to 'debate' the merits of said beliefs

I was at first intrigued by this thread, but at this point am rather annoyed by your ramblings...seems to me you are trying to instill fear and hatred of some possible future as opposed to clearly stating a belief...

and what is starting to really annoy me is your repeated referrence to a New World Order...

again, skip all the bull and get to The_Point

**Fr4665** · 10-26-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wozer

@Xerxes

sooo....what exactly are you?....you say you're a Jew and anti-???

all Islam, part of Islam....w00t?

get to the point man...

can we hear a simple statement of your beliefs?

then perhaps it will be appropriate to 'debate' the merits of said beliefs

I was at first intrigued by this thread, but at this point am rather annoyed by your ramblings...seems to me you are trying to instill fear and hatred of some possible future as opposed to clearly stating a belief...

and what is starting to really annoy me is your repeated referrence to a New World Order...

again, skip all the bull and get to The_Point

exactly what i was trying to ask 2 times already but all i get is more quotes and more bull

~~jeffdrummer~~ · 10-26-2006, 07:53 AM

I don't have much time to talk right now, but it is amazng how divisive this religion is. I study Russian history extentisizly, and story that came out one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's work (I believe it is from his book "Memoirs from the House of the Dead" published in about 1860) talked about Turks from the Ottoman empire nailing the ears of Christians to fence posts until they died. It was mostly anti-Muslim propaganda put out by the Czar (I believe Nicholas). But it is interesting that in the age of the internet this is still going on, just on a global scale. I can't say that the propaganda wasn't anti-Turk as well, because Russia was almost at constant war with them... but still the rhetoritic we hear today is the same as it was back then, mostly senseless. We can use simple logic to tell that Islam is not peaceful, 9-11, Darfur, USS Cole, Madrid, etc. etc. etc.

I can't help but imagine that the Muhamedans do the same exact thing to us, in fact we know they do. In Iran propaganda is going around that Christians allow marriage between man and animals, and homosexual marraiges (allowed but not by Christianity). Anyways propaganda is propaganda, ignore it, it won't go away... but hopefully this thread will.

**Wozer** · 10-26-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffdrummer

We can use simple logic to tell that Islam is not peaceful, 9-11, Darfur, USS Cole, Madrid, etc. etc. etc.

then the same type of logic could conclude that Christianity is not peaceful re: the crusades, the Spanish conquest of South America, the genocide of the Native American Indians, slavery, etc, etc, etc..

as I noted previously, extremists (read control freaks out to rule the world) are the problem, not the actual religions....

**Fr4665** · 10-26-2006, 08:54 AM

exactly what i said earlier the extremists that just believe in that one thing and go after their religious ideas as if it was the only thing to live by those usuallz tend to screw up

10-25-2006, 12:00 PM	#21 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore/California Desert Posts: 4,747 OS: PCLinuxOS, XP Pro My System	I agree that this is sounding like religion bashing to me too - only anti-Islam not anti-west. I don't see this thread going anywhere and am closing it. PM me if you feel strongly that it is a viable conversation that should be continued. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas

10-25-2006, 06:58 PM	#22 (permalink)
yustr Asst. Manager, The Conversation Pit Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Connecticut shore/California Desert Posts: 4,747 OS: PCLinuxOS, XP Pro My System	I have reopened this thread. Please use it as a forum to exchange ideas, opinions and knowledge of Islam and other world religions. If it deteriorates I will close it. __________________ I didn't mean to say it. But I meant what I said. J. McMurtry In Vino Veritas

10-26-2006, 02:49 AM	#23 (permalink)
Xerxes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: iran Posts: 62 OS: Windows XP	I have more points to add to the thread. I was about put some versers from quran about k khafir. Below are a few Quranic verses that use the root word k. The translation others, including Jews and Christians, and not only against the Meccans or their pagan allies. In the end, i think : I am saddened that anyone should have held this misconception of unity between muslims and christians, meaning the conception that the Quran encourages belligerency towards Christians and Jews. What should be lamented is that many followers but nevertheless is unable to look past his or hers prejudices to the see what the Islamic source materials state and claims. Make no mistake about it: The Muslim terrorists are still at war .They will strike again. It is a natural part of real Islam. The tragedy is that until we realize the darkness in Islam, we will not be able to properly confront and deal with that darkness.My conclusion is that The Meccan (during the time of prophet muhammed) polytheists were long gone, either having died, fled, or converted to Islam by choice or by compulsion. The verse teaches belligerence towards Christians and Jews. The Quran does teach violence or subjection against all non-Muslims. next quotes Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad they had no beneficial faith in any messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah’s Law and religion. Had they been true believers in the religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad’s advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even thought he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets. Hence Allah’s statement This honorable ayah (passage) was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslim’s control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination…. Additionally, in the Hadith that Muhammad foretold that his followers would take their wars of conquest to distant lands. Below is a Hadith from Muslim’s collection: Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6930: Nafi' b. Utba reported: We were with Allah's Messenger in an expedition that there came a people to Allah's Apostle from the direction of the west. They were dressed in woolen clothes and they stood near a hillock and they met him as Allah's Messenger was sitting. I said to myself: Better go to them and stand between him and them that they may not attack him. Then I thought that perhaps there had been going on secret negotiation amongst them. I however, went to them and stood between them and him and I remember four of the words (on that occasion) which I repeat (on the fingers of my hand) that he (Allah's Messenger) said: You will attack Arabia and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack Persia and He would make you to Conquer it. Then you would attack Rome and Allah will enable you to conquer it, then you would attack the Dajjal and Allah will enable you to conquer him. Nafi' said: Jabir, we thought that the Dajjal would appear after Rome (Syrian territory) would be conquered. Allah said, "until they pay the Jizyah," if they do not choose to embrace Islam, "with willing submission", in defeat and subservience, "and feel themselves subdued," disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. many construe this verse as self defense but it is opposite........... 9:29 "Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden--such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book--until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled." The battle of Hunain was one of the battles Muhammad fought well after the conquest of Mecca. It helped to cement his domination over the Hijaz. This battle occurred in the year 8 A.H., (630 A.D.). the account of how christians were treated......... Below is an example of how Muhammad treated Christians just before he died. The account records that Muhammad marshaled 30,000 of his troops north to the town of Tabuk to do battle with the Romans. Upon arriving they found no one there and no threat existed. Muhammad took advantage of this opportunity to exploit others and sent a detachment to Ayla. Quotes To John ibn Rabah and the Chiefs of Aylah. Peace be on you! I praise God for you, beside whom there is no Lord. I will not fight against you until I have written thus unto you. Believe, or else pay tribute. And be obedient unto the Lord and his Prophet, and the messengers of his Prophet. Honor them and clothe them with excellent vestments, not with inferior raiment. Specially clothe Zeid with excellent garments. As long as my messengers are pleased, so likewise am I. Ye know the tribute. If ye desire to have security by sea and by land, obey the Lord and his Apostle, and he will defend you from every claim, whether by Arab or foreigner, saving the claim of the Lord and his Apostle. But if ye oppose and displease them, I will not accept from you a single thing, until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder. My friends actions speak ever louder than words. The Quran 9:29, 30 refers to Christians and Jews in general. Muhammad terrorized non-Muslim peoples. Last edited by Xerxes : 10-26-2006 at 03:06 AM.

10-26-2006, 07:20 AM	#31 (permalink)
40sondacurb #64 & #36 BACKBONE Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,721 OS: xp	I'd like to note that it is our responsibility to make as concise an argument as you can. That means making your point in one post, two if you can't edit, but six in a row is way overboard. __________________ Donate to keep the forum running "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully" -George W. Bush

10-26-2006, 07:32 AM	#32 (permalink)
Wozer TSF Enthusiast Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 1,009 OS: 2kpro/XP pro/MCE	@Xerxes sooo....what exactly are you?....you say you're a Jew and anti-??? all Islam, part of Islam....w00t? get to the point man... can we hear a simple statement of your beliefs? then perhaps it will be appropriate to 'debate' the merits of said beliefs I was at first intrigued by this thread, but at this point am rather annoyed by your ramblings...seems to me you are trying to instill fear and hatred of some possible future as opposed to clearly stating a belief... and what is starting to really annoy me is your repeated referrence to a New World Order... again, skip all the bull and get to The_Point __________________ Beware of the big 3 insurance companies in Texas! Read your policies carefully (maybe you'll need a lawyer) and enjoy the 6% increase in your rates you are about to receive from Allstate, Farmers & State Farm for most likely reduced coverage Last edited by Wozer : 10-26-2006 at 07:34 AM.

10-26-2006, 03:17 AM	#27 (permalink)
Xerxes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: iran Posts: 62 OS: Windows XP	my words,quotes and meanings are to instill debate among people who think that islam is a peacful religion. i am just asking is it a peaceful religion based on the literature provided to the forum readers. Please dont close this thread. it is interesting to hear what more views can added to this thread.

10-26-2006, 03:30 AM	#28 (permalink)
Xerxes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: iran Posts: 62 OS: Windows XP	5 ages after Jesus the Arabian trader Mohammad met Muslim Christianity in Syrian monasteries. Mohammad failed to grasp the message love everybody like yourself. i believe that Mohammad born in Arabia, developed the agressive sect 'Mohammedanism' as branch of Islam with as motto: 'attack is the best defense' (but peace on him)Mohammed claimed to be a prophet, but might be seen as 10 ages later 'Martin Luther' within Catholicism. 'Muhammedanism' is a kind of Islamic Protestantism Mohammedanism filled the gap left by the crumbled Eastern Empire of the Romans, resulting in constant war with Zoroastrian Persia In Sunni Mohammedanism Mohammad's closest friend and father-in-law Abu Bakr as-Siddiq, became his legitimate elected succesor in 632. The Shi'a Mohammedanists follow Mohammad's cousin and son-in-law Ali Ibn Abi Talib. It makes more sense to see Mohammad as Arabian Emperor than as prophet.

10-26-2006, 03:41 AM	#30 (permalink)
Xerxes Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: iran Posts: 62 OS: Windows XP	From the ashes of old empires emerged new nation-states in Europe and Asia. For Muslims, these meant an uncertain division of "politics" and "religion," an unprecedented innovation in the history of the umma. "secular" states emerged in Turkey and Iran, often with brutally enforced separation of political and religious life. "Islamic" nations emerged (often with the military or financial support of western powers) in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt (where the tension between secularism and Islamism proved irresolvable). The creation of the Zionist state of Israel polarized the Islamic middle east, while the creation of Islamic Pakistan polarized southern Asia. The tensions of "globalism" and "modernization" have led to extreme reactions and conflicts: the Shi'i revolution in Iran ousted the brutally secularizing Shah in 1979; "Islamism," reform movements dedicated to de-westernizing and purifying Islamic life, have emerged throughout the Islamic world; new "ethnic" nationalism in central Europe has redefined existence for European Muslims in former Yugoslavia; and thinly veiled religious rhetoric has informed the most recent international conflicts between (and amongst) western and eastern powers. More of this will continue to splill untill a world government is formed.............

10-26-2006, 07:53 AM	#34 (permalink)
~~jeffdrummer~~ Register user Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 870 OS: MAC OS X 10.4.8, and 10.5!! WinXP SP2	I don't have much time to talk right now, but it is amazng how divisive this religion is. I study Russian history extentisizly, and story that came out one of Fyodor Dostoevsky's work (I believe it is from his book "Memoirs from the House of the Dead" published in about 1860) talked about Turks from the Ottoman empire nailing the ears of Christians to fence posts until they died. It was mostly anti-Muslim propaganda put out by the Czar (I believe Nicholas). But it is interesting that in the age of the internet this is still going on, just on a global scale. I can't say that the propaganda wasn't anti-Turk as well, because Russia was almost at constant war with them... but still the rhetoritic we hear today is the same as it was back then, mostly senseless. We can use simple logic to tell that Islam is not peaceful, 9-11, Darfur, USS Cole, Madrid, etc. etc. etc. I can't help but imagine that the Muhamedans do the same exact thing to us, in fact we know they do. In Iran propaganda is going around that Christians allow marriage between man and animals, and homosexual marraiges (allowed but not by Christianity). Anyways propaganda is propaganda, ignore it, it won't go away... but hopefully this thread will.

10-26-2006, 08:54 AM	#36 (permalink)
Fr4665 aka mr.fraggs Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA or Germany Posts: 2,959 OS: Win XP,Knoppix My System	exactly what i said earlier the extremists that just believe in that one thing and go after their religious ideas as if it was the only thing to live by those usuallz tend to screw up __________________ I don't subscribe to threads please PM me if i miss a reply. ------- Everest SensorView Pro DriverCleaner how to fix your game