Blitzkreig75

1994 Olds Cutlas Supreme
3.4 auto/AC

A little background on me, I've worked on cars my whole life. I'm no ASE guy, but I do know what I'm doing and will admit if I don't.

I've had a new battery put in with a new alternator in January '09. Replaced the starter in October '08, warrantied the starter yesterday, (6-22-09). Replaced the hot cable to the starter/battery. Solid, clean connections at both ends, (new terminals on battery).

The car will not turn over more than occasionally. Sometimes it turns over ater one try, sometimes it takes multiple tries, occasionally it turns over on the first try. These are the exact symptoms that led me to replace the starter in October '08. The car does not have a starter relay.

The problem began about two weeks ago, but has gotten more and more frequent quickly, within the last few days. Now, it almost always will not fire up right away. Hasn't gotten worse since changing the starter, but not any better, either.

I replaced the cable yesterday after replacing the starter yielded no change in symptoms. The car was fine for about 20 starts. I checked it all day at work, never failed to fire on first try. I get home, take a nap, go out to the store, and it happens all over again. No different than before I changed the starter.

Makes no difference if the engine is hot or cold. It WILL start, but I'm very concerned that one time it won't, and I'll be stranded.

Please, can anyone help me out here? I have no idea where to look next.

mack1

Hi Blitzkreig75,

I hate those kind of problems, don't you? I have a couple of ideas that you might try.
You didn't say if you had checked the grounds. They are just as important as the hot leads. Take the ground cable loose at the engine block and clean the connection and the block post. If you use sand paper, be sure to clean the residue off after sanding. Make sure the starter is bolted down tight. It uses that connection for its ground, along with the ground cable on the block.

Measure the voltage on the wire from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. It would be nice to know if there was a difference when it worked and when it didn't. Might be a bad ignition switch or a bad connection from the fuse panel to the ignition switch. Here's an easy test for you. Connect a wire to the solenoid terminal and bring it up near the battery. When it won't start with the ignition, see if it will if you touch the wire to the positive battery terminal. That should tell you right quick if the problem was with the 12 volt source from the ignition switch.

Let us know what you find.

Very best regards,
Mack1

edited because ge does not spell be.

Blitzkreig75

Thanks.

I will try these things later, after work.

Blitzkreig75

Okay, I checked the ground to the block. It's rock-solid. Not loose at all, I didn't remove it for fear of not getting it back as good, (it's in a rather tough spot). I cleaned the area up and it's not corroded or anything, the wire is very stiff, feels like a good connection. The ground on the cellunoid is also solid.

I couldn't test the voltage on the ignition wire just yet. I have a multimeter, and I can do that Friday since I have someone coming over to help me. I kinda did what you said with the wire to the battery, though. I wired the starter directly to the battery using a gague of wire very very close to the thickness of the wire already in place. I soldered an eye on each end and connected the two posts. [EDIT]: I put this new wire on in addition to the one already in place, not in place of.

No change.

Checked the two ignition fuses, but they are both fine. The hot to the fuse box isn't in excellent shape, but I think it's cosmetic. It's firm and not loose at all. Just looks tarnished, but not corroded.

Now, if I 'jump' the hot on the starter to ground, that will make the starter turn over, right? Or is there more to it than that?

I've had a few people tell me it might be my fly wheel. If there's a god in heaven tell me it isn't true..... when it fails to start, it just clicks, like the starter is locked or the battery is dead.

Blitzkreig75

I remember a friend had a problem with his starter not engaging properly. Turned out to be the knrul on the bolts was worn so bad, the starter would shift when it engaged and not hit the fly wheel properly. Might the knrul be a possibility here?

mack1

Hi Blitzkreig75,

Your forgot to mention that the starter clicked in your first post. Your friends are probably right about the fly wheel gear teeth being flattened on the edge toward the starter. The starter's gear is also beveled and will also be flattened as the teeth hit each other without engaging.

You should have seen a very good improvement when you put the starter in new. Often this fixes that problem in that the flywheel has many teeth and the starter only has about 6 or 8 and will be much more flattened than the flywheel teeth.

Pull your starter and look at the end of the gear. You might be able to notice that it is flattened on the beveled edge toward the flywheel (the outside end of the gear). If it is, you'll know that that is the problem and might want to try another new starter. Changing the flywheel is a lot of work. If you can get your head up high enough, or use a mirrow you can look at the flywheel teeth. Use a wrench on the crankshaft to turn the engine to see all the teeth.

Best regards,
Mack1

Blitzkreig75

I'm going to take the inspection cover off the bell housing tomorrow and check the fly wheel as well as remove the starter and make certain the mounting is clean and free of any nicks. I'll check the gear on the starter then.

Is it possible the fly wheel is warped and only not engaging at ceratin sopt(s)? I've had no problems or any odd sounds with the entire engine, and it runs like a champ. Only 'spun' the starter one time, and that was several months ago. I accidentally turned the key to the 'start' position for like 1/2 a second while the vehicle was running, but these problems occured about 1,000 starts ago, and on the old starter. Would one mishap damage the fly wheel?

EDIT:
Also, if, in fact, the starter is damaged from not lining up properly with the fly wheel, replacing the starter will not remedy the cause, right? What would cause this to happen? BTW, the starter was/is on tight and doesn't move a bit, (I mean you can't SEE or FEEL it move on the outside), when it's activated.

mack1

In the back of the solenoid there is a heavy contact to make the current flow through the starter windings. The solenoid must reach full stroke for this contact to engage. When the starter teeth and the flywheel teeth clash, you get the click, but no starter rotation because full extension of the solenoid wasn't reached. Sometimes several clicks later, the starter gear will rotate enough to engage and then the starter current engages and the engine starts. Since both the ring gear and the starter gear are both beveled (somewhat sharpened), they slip together aligning as the move together. On the rare occasion when the tips are aligned to strick each other, some blunting occurs. Note that in each of these cases only two teeth are involved. There are a lot of teeth on the ring gear and about 6 on the starter gear. It stands to reason that the 6 will get flattened much sooner than the 75 to 100 teeth on the ring gear.

Clearly the best solution would to replace both the ring gear and the starter gear. Like I posted earlier, sometimes you can get by with just a new starter gear.

This happened on my grandson's car a couple of years ago. Just replacing the starter cleared his up sufficiently.

At one time, you could buy just the ring gear for the flywheel and replace it. I did one several years ago. I was able to remove the old one with a hammer and punch. I heated to expand the new one and slipped it on quickly. It wasn't very hard to do.

I've never seen a warped flywheel. The starter flange will align itself to the bellhousing when you put it on. If the starter bolts flat against the housing, it will be aligned.

Hope this helps,
Mack1

pat mcgroin

Just a thought as I have seen this before.
When you replaced the starter earlier were there any shims between the starter and the block? If there were then they need to be there to create the proper gear mesh.
If they arent there then the starter tooth will hit the flywheel ring and not engage the teeth.
This will be worse when things are warm and expanded.
This may not be helpful as it once worked but is now getting to be a problem but if you do pull the starter look at the teeth on both and see if you can tell if there is wear at the very base of the teeth. You shouldnt see any wear at the very bottom of the V.

Blitzkreig75

Ok, I worked on this thing all day Friday.

I took the starter off and checked the fly wheel. There's no damage, but you can see scores, (where the surface of the fly wheel teeth are shiny), where the starter has been hitting the fly wheel. Although there were no shims on niether the first one nor the replacement, (or that came with the 3rd one), I bought a kit and tried the shims.

Incrimentally from 1/64 to 1/8" I shimmed the starter. At about 5/64", the clicking sounded better, like it wasn't as hard, but it still happened. When the eingine did start at that simmed distance, it sounded right. I continued with 1/64" incriments till @ 1/8", the starter would skip, (you could hear it), when it turned the fly wheel. This told me that was definately too far, and I went in the opposite direction.

The clicking occured no matter what distance I shimmed it. I'm convinced I did not need to shim it.

After about .100", the starting sounded wrong, like high-pitched and a bit of a whine similar to how some Chryslers sound. That's where it's at now. It clicks a bit less often, but I can tell it's not right.

One of the techs at my local preferred garage told me to try and spin the starter without it engaging the fly wheel, to wear the brushes in some, wich I did, but it had no effect on the problem. I also watched a video on how a starter works so I could have a better understanding of what's taking place.

As best as I can tell, the starter gear is not rotating into place every time. So, how would I go about testing the stroke, or the voltage it's getting, or whatever I need to check to make the determination that it is, in fact, the stroke causing the gears to not mesh?

I have not taken the starter back yet, because it's new, (reman), as of one week ago today, 6-29-09. I want to completely eliminate every other possibility before telling the parts store they sold me a bad starter.

Blitzkreig75

Pat, the starter gear looked fine, no damage that I could see and there was lithium grease in the housing.

Mack, the starter bolts to the engine block, but the knurls fit tightly in the starter and through to the block, minimal, (if any at all), room for misplacement.

mack1

Hi Blitz,

The rotating into place is accomplished by the sharpened edges on both the flywheel gear and the starter gear. The starter will rotate if the gears ever start meshing together and the stroke will extend to its limits and bring in the heavy current need to spin the engine.

To test for the stork reaching its end, just measure the voltage at the battery or on the large terminal of the starter. When the stroke is reached and current is applied, the battery voltage will reduce from 12.5 volts to near 10. If it stays at 12 or 12.5(which ever you measured at the start) then the stroke is not reaching its end.

Shims are needed if the starter gear tries to go in too far (normally they don't). In that case, the flange on the back of the starter gear will reach the ring gear and cause a short stroke problem. When this happens, shims are needed.

If you hear a solid click and no engine rotation, suspect the stroke if the voltage on the large wire on the solenoid stays high. If you get the solid click and the large wire voltage goes down with no engine rotation, check the battery cable connections again (both the large red and black cables at both ends).

When you inspect the ring gear, look at the sharp edge toward the starter, not the shinny part inside the gear teeth. When you look at the starter gear, look at the sharp edge, not the gear surfaces. If both those edges are sharp and not blunted, the starter should engage and cause engine rotation.

Hope this helps,
Mack1